Board 8 > Freedom, Liberty, Ron Paul - The Topic [Tom Woods] [Bob Murphy] [Adam Kokesh]

(+) Yeah! (+)

You brought this up before and I gave you the perfect example, let the LVMI institute coordinate the audit.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Oh, you did? I forgot we'd ever talked about this before, sorry.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
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Watching three hours worth of FreePac coverage on GBTV. Lots of good speakers in addition to your standard neocons (most notably Rand Paul).

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

lol, Rand is speaking in a suit coat and tie... with blue jeans

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

He's going for the white trash vote

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_foolmo_
'You are obviously intelligent and insightful' - Sir Chris about me

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

and this



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

From: SmartMuffin | #258

2. The government is lying about the potential consequences of the attacks. They're exaggerating how easy it would be to dramatically collapse important institutions via computers.

This, easily

The problem with a cyber attack is that it has to be stealthy, but it also has to be effective in terms of destroying things. That kind of creates a paradox for the virus, because if you're destroying things, you're not exactly stealthy. The faster you spread the virus, the more detectable it becomes as well, because there are ALWAYS side-effects and there are several corporations in the world dedicated to finding every virus.

So the solution is to just do things really slowly. That's what the Olympic Games viruses did. They are arguably the most complex viruses ever made, with the entirety of US intelligence behind the engineering, and they still took years 1-2 years to affect a very specific target (nuclear plant centrifuges for Stuxnet, and oil refinery computers for Flame).

The bottom line is that it's definitely possible that there are tons of attacks, but they either get detected too early, or are harmless or not effective.

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

Right, of course, that's YET ANOTHER benefit of the free market and deregulation.

Despite what a lot of idiots believe, it's not as if somewhere underground in Washington DC we have one giant computer that is labeled "US INFRASTRUCTURE" and once the Chinese hack that one thing it's all over.

Every corporation has its own network, complete with multiple firewalls and safeguards against such things. Even "the" power grid is regional, it's not like there's a single power grid that controls the entire nation.

Of course, if the commies had their way and absolutely everything was controlled by DC, we might end up with that one giant computer and it would be that much easier for terrorists to bring us down.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

You know you're a fascist when Michael Bloomberg thinks you're taking the power of government too far.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-07-27/nyc-mayor-chick-fil-a-flap-not-govts-business

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Billboard-compares-president-to-suspected-gunman-164067056.html

oh my!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/27/us/cyberattacks-are-up-national-security-chief-says.html?_r=1

He confirmed that under existing authorities, only the president had the power to authorize an American-directed cyberattack. The first such attacks occurred under President George W. Bush.

The Pentagon has said previously that if the United States retaliated for an attack on its soil, the response could come in the form of a countercyberattack, or a traditional military response.

Is there still any doubt that the US orchestrated Stuxnet?

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_foolmo_
'now dey gotta surfer' - Andrealee Crespo (http://soundcloud.com/deygottasurferautotune)

Something doesn't quite add up with the whole cyberattack narrative. We're told that the amount of attacks is nearly constant and keeps increasing. We're also told that the consequences of the attacks are completely devastating and could like, completely collapse the country and send us back into the dark ages.

So, if both of those things were true, wouldn't that have already happened by now? The way I see it, there are only three possibilities.

1. The government is lying about the nature of the attacks. They're exaggerating either the amount of them, or the expertise of those engaging in them.

2. The government is lying about the potential consequences of the attacks. They're exaggerating how easy it would be to dramatically collapse important institutions via computers.

3. The government is being completely truthful, but the NSA (or whoever we have that is fighting against these things) is just that damn good and has successfully prevented 100% of the attacks. We as a nation are just SO much further advanced than China that they just have no hope of ever penetrating our cyberdefenses.

Which of those things do YOU think is most likely?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Oh so apparently the NY Times reported that it was part of a US operation called Olympic Games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Olympic_Games

That Flame virus sounds pretty crazy, too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_(malware)

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_foolmo_
'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth

That poll thing said I agree with Ron Paul more than anyone else. Who is he

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Digi
White boards are remarkable.

This is Ron Paul.



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Restoring Love tonight. Boring so far.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Pretty big waste of time, easily the worst restoring yet!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

I like how all these mayors said stuff like "Chik Fil A shouldn't bother trying to come to my city" and then when the news pressed them on the free speech issue they all took it back and said "oh of course we wouldn't stop them from putting a store here, we were just saying"

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_foolmo_
'Oh please, if foolmo made that analogy you'd think it was picture perfect' - Biolizard28

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/07/19/o-canada-riding-high-on-greater-economic-freedom/

How long does this have to happen until, "That's it, I'm moving to Canada!" becomes a threat from people on the right rather than the left.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Well yeah, Canada and such places are FAR less free in other ways. The concept of "freedom of speech" pretty much doesn't exist there. You can get thrown in jail for reading from the bible on a street corner.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

How long does this have to happen until, "That's it, I'm moving to Canada!" becomes a threat from people on the right rather than the left.

I'd imagine for many on the right it's still way too far off. Socialised healthcare, stricter gun laws, legal gay marriage, and public acceptance of the science of global warming all seem like they'd piss many people in the American right off too much. However, for those Northeast-style strict fiscal conservatives... yeah you do have a point.

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I'm actually kinda surprised some of them did back down. I was expecting this to be their moment to get on their "corporations aren't people and therefore have no free speech rights" high horse. Shame they're too stupid to have made that connection.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

heh

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

I'd always imagined Harry Reid's hometown of Searchlight, Nevada was somewhere in Northern Nevada in the past, but it turns out it's south of Las Vegas in that corner of Nevada wedged between California and Arizona. Inhospitable desert.

Anyway, people like Harry Reid designed the tax code to be a giant game where smart people can pay as little as possible by playing it well. If Mitt Romney is a very good player, then good for him.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

I think tipping is a bad system but I don't applaud people who don't tip. Clearly not the same situation, but even so.

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More people should enter characters for the create a character contest.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63514902

Oh man, Harry Reid is claiming that Romney hasn't paid taxes in ten years. Smart move; no matter how thoroughly discredited this is, one-third of the country will always believe it. God bless America.

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PSN: JDTAY87

So, I did end up enrolling in Bob Murphy's AnCap course. Starts this week. Not going to pirate any of his lecture stuff, because I respect his property rights, but much of the reading materials are offered for free on mises.org (imagine that, free stuff from a committed capitalist and free-market organization). I'll post them as I read them, so you guys can follow along if you'd like.

The first is a chapter from Murray Rothbard's book, For A New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto. The suggested reading is Chapter 12, dealing with a privatized police, law, and court system, which starts on Page 267.

http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto.pdf

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Bill Clinton to give keynote speech at DNC, obviously to extol virtues of free trade and welfare reform.

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PSN: JDTAY87

She's running against Scott Brown? Well, don't count her a senator just yet.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

http://reason.com//archives/2012/07/30/why-elizabeth-warren-wants-america-to-be

This woman is a communist, a liar, a racist, and an idiot. And soon, a senator.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

People think Warren will win because Massachusetts is liberal, but they're discounting how much Massachusetts loves Scott Brown's sexy body.

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PSN: JDTAY87

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/30/1059937/-Teach-Your-Child-How-to-Survive-Being-Arrested-at-School

Here's an interesting article, and from a leftist source no less.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

From: SmartMuffin | #275

http://reason.com//archives/2012/07/30/why-elizabeth-warren-wants-america-to-be

This woman is a communist, a liar, a racist, and an idiot. And soon, a senator.

As far as liberals go, she's not that bad. She is anti-establishment at her core, she just has a really misguided view of reality. But it's a lot easier to change her views with logic and facts than it would be to change her core ideals, so I would prefer her to a typical establishment cronie.

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foolmo
at work

http://bastiat.mises.org/2012/07/empty-seats-and-empty-minds-at-the-olympics/

I'd say lolengland, but it's not like we wouldn't do the exact same thing here.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

As far as liberals go, she's not that bad.

Um, no. She's the absolute worst kind of statist troll. Obama's "you didn't build that" comment was basically a rip-off from a popular soundbyte of hers a few months back.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

That article comes off as intensely paranoid to me, but I suspect I'll be in the minority on that subject in this thread.

Regardless, I'm a bit confused by the "put your hands on your head" thing. I can't see someone doing that without looking ridiculous, which the police (particularly the vindictive jackass officer that this article seems to be warning us about) might take as a sign of mockery or contempt. Wouldn't "keep your hands at your sides" work better?

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The IBET facebook feed is starting to get quite a lot of pushback for some of their more "anti-military" content. They can be jerks (and a little over the top) about it sometimes, but I don't think they're technically wrong here...

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

From: NeoElfboy | #288

That article comes off as intensely paranoid to me, but I suspect I'll be in the minority on that subject in this thread.

Regardless, I'm a bit confused by the "put your hands on your head" thing. I can't see someone doing that without looking ridiculous, which the police (particularly the vindictive jackass officer that this article seems to be warning us about) might take as a sign of mockery or contempt. Wouldn't "keep your hands at your sides" work better?

It SEEMS paranoid, but honestly, when dealing with the police you have absolutely nothing to gain and absolutely everything to lose.



Hands on your head is best because your hands are visible and farthest away from any potential weapons. Hands at your sides, say you move one of them up too fast, officer blows you away, says he thought you were reaching for a gun, you're dead, and he gets a month off with pay before returning to the job.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

That would probably make me MORE likely to vote for Mitt Romney. Tax evaders are heroes imho.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

kinda funny, the intellectual part of Adam absolutely knows that Glenn Beck did something great, but he just can't seem to bring himself to actually say anything nice about a religious person without disrespecting the **** out of all religious peoples beliefs.

It would be great if we could somehow combine Adam's an-cap political beliefs with Glenn's more open and accepting message. Unfortunately, as it stands, it's a rivalry between a correct douchebag and an incorrect, but genuinely nice guy.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Holy **** this book is amazing. It's like it was specifically written to counter the most common objections to voluntarism.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

More freedom. Less regulation. But you see, substituting private regulation for government regulation doesn't help you that much, because regulation is regulation. My position is that the voluntarism described in that book is utopian, because it will naturally degenerate back into big government. Just like Marx's Communist paradise will naturally degenerate into big government.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
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Change that 50% to 95% and soon those who wish to use drugs are completely unable to function in that community.

As for say, the complete shunning of rapists... Well, then that rapist, a person known to use violence to achieve their ends, is now walking around completely unrestricted. Perhaps he changes his appearance enough to slide back into society. Perhaps he decides instead to rob someone because he can't get food otherwise having been shunned. Eventually, either the rapist is punished with death, or a system of imprisonment is established to protect the populace from the rapist. Otherwise they just stick around and cause trouble until he dies. Now clearly not everyone in the populace is capable of standing up to such a man, so in order to imprison him, so a militia would likely be formed. But then a set of rules would have to be made to govern that militia or it could lead to a tyrannical rampage from them (which has happened in the past). So rules are set. But of course, if each town has its own rules, people could commit a crime in one town, and seek asylum in a town that lacks such a rule. Perhaps a town is formed specifically based around being relatively lawless, living by taking from their neighbors. So the other towns come together and make a higher level of law, one that they collectively enforce so as to not be burdened by such maverick towns. So now you have several small nations effectively. Government has arisen, albeit in a purely militaristic sense.

Or perhaps something worse happens. Perhaps the people of this town don't like the victim. They're on a negative rep list for almost everyone in the town. So maybe the people are fine with the crime occurring so long as it only happens to people they don't like (which again, has happened historically). Or maybe the town has a particular worldview in which some group of people are considered property (history). That are in a disadvantageous spot without having entered in to this society voluntarily. So once again, either this town is left to its own actions or other towns band together and forcibly change it. Which is of course, essentially a small war.

The thing is, humans on the whole are capable of real atrocities. We're better in that regard in our countries (in our opinion of course), but I really do not trust everyone to not band together to commit acts I would really, really rather not see happen. The voluntaristic society you've described only works until a group decides they don't agree with voluntarism, and then it's completely screwed.

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Especially as we can view governments as just a large voluntary association.

We can, but does anyone? I feel like you're way too reasonable to actually believe this, and you're just playing devil's advocate with me here.

In other words, a legal system of property rights does exist, and it is not "natural." One cannot get away from the arbitrariness of setting property rights.

If that's not natural, I have no idea what is. What would YOU suggest is a "natural" way of determining property rights. You say "arbitrariness" as if its a bad thing. Would you rather live in a society where there were no property rights at all? I would suggest to you that such a thing never has, and never could, exist.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

More freedom

Okay. So if "more freedom" made South Korea better than North Korea, could it not also make America (of the future) better than America (of today)?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

What I'm saying is that if we adopt the system of voluntary associations 100%, what will the world look like in 100 years? It will probably look much like what it looks like now: voluntary associations will get larger and larger from entirely natural market forces until they become governments.

There's no natural way to set property rights, which means we must choose an arbitrary way of setting them. It does us no good to pretend that there is some natural way, because we are searching for something that is just not there.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Fun fact: 1984 was an Olympic year.

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PSN: JDTAY87

Yes, I just don't think his system will work. Doesn't mean I don't want more freedom.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Hey guys, Obama just authorized secret support for the Syrian rebels.

Now excuse me while I make a secret pizza with secret pepperoni and secret mozzarella.

Shhhhhhhh, it's a secret.

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PSN: JDTAY87