Board 8 > Freedom, Liberty, Ron Paul - The Topic [Tom Woods] [Bob Murphy] [Adam Kokesh]

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm still not convinced that the message of Obama's speech was actually: "If you're successful, that has 0% to do with your own talents."

It's obviously not. Obama is way smarter than that, and has lived a life in which he's made himself what he is through his own hard work and intelligence. If anything, he's saying America should be more like that, but isn't.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
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If people stop giving money to charity then society deserves to rot imo

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SuperNiceDog? More like GuruNiceDog.

From: red sox 777 | #195

Statistically, the thing that best predicts your wealth is.....your parents' wealth.

Duh, but the American Dream isn't about the mean statistics and correlation of factors. It's about the extraordinary, and the outliers. A person will on average be as wealthy as their parents, but as long as the opportunity is there to far exceed that prediction using good ideas and hard work, the American Dream remains intact.

Big government policies tend to limit that opportunity, and strengthen the inertia of wealth (rich get richer, poor get poorer).

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_foolmo_
'To be foolmo'd is to be better opinion'd.' - Blairville

Duh, but the American Dream isn't about the mean statistics and correlation of factors. It's about the extraordinary, and the outliers. A person will on average be as wealthy as their parents, but as long as the opportunity is there to far exceed that prediction using good ideas and hard work, the American Dream remains intact.

Then it's the oldest lie told by the middle class to itself. The problem is that as most people see it, it is not about the outliers. People think that if they work hard, they will be successful. But working hard does not make you an outlier, and it will not make you rich by itself.

Big government policies tend to limit that opportunity, and strengthen the inertia of wealth (rich get richer, poor get poorer).

Yes.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
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From: red sox 777 | #199

Then it's the oldest lie told by the middle class to itself. The problem is that as most people see it, it is not about the outliers. People think that if they work hard, they will be successful. But working hard does not make you an outlier, and it will not make you rich by itself.

True, but the reason that America has been the leader of innovation for a long time is because people believe it to be true. There is actually a motivation to be more than average, and to reach for more than what is given to you.

It doesn't matter if the sentiment is "reality" or not, because as long as enough people believe in it, it becomes reality. Circular logic, but that's how it is.

That's what is disappointing about the speech. There is not much a speech can do, really. It's not legally binding, it doesn't change policy, or anything. But it DOES influence beliefs and influences the confidence in concepts like the American Dream, so there really is no reason to damage that confidence unless you deliberately intended to do so.

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_foolmo_
'I mean, what does electricity have to do with math besides calculators?' - ZeldaFreak29

The casual arrogance of the top 1% comes easily to Obama (yes, he is top 1%, and was long before he became president). The feeling is that extraordinary people like himself (note: extraordinary does include work ethic, but is not limited to it) do not need pep talks, and all real innovation comes from extraordinary people anyway.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

foolm0ron posted...

That's what is disappointing about the speech. There is not much a speech can do, really. It's not legally binding, it doesn't change policy, or anything. But it DOES influence beliefs and influences the confidence in concepts like the American Dream, so there really is no reason to damage that confidence unless you deliberately intended to do so.

Confidence in the American Dream has been withering for some time now. I doubt this one speech will have any impact on that trend one way or the other.

--
From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch

From: redrocket | #202

Confidence in the American Dream has been withering for some time now. I doubt this one speech will have any impact on that trend one way or the other.

Yeah yeah, but it's an indication of the overall message of the past few administrations, and it builds up over time to do real damage.

--
_foolmo_
'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth

foolm0ron posted...

From: redrocket | #202

Confidence in the American Dream has been withering for some time now. I doubt this one speech will have any impact on that trend one way or the other.

Yeah yeah, but it's an indication of the overall message of the past few administrations, and it builds up over time to do real damage.

It's been happening since the 70's, and the causes are bigger than just our government. See this speech by Jimmy Carter:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/carter-crisis/

Well worth reading in its entirety. We (maybe) had a brief recovery in 80's under Reagan, but we've been slowly circling the drain ever since.

--
From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch

Anyone who thinks that the "American Dream" (for whatever the **** that even means) is "if you work hard you'll be rich" is a ****ing idiot who doesn't understand economics AT ALL.

Working "hard" (there's a specific and quantifiable term if I've ever seen one!) is irrelevant, and I can't imagine that Americans historically believed that would be enough for wealth. That's an effort-based measurement. It's the equivalent of a participation trophy. How hard you work doesn't matter, what matters is how much benefit you can provide to your fellow man. THAT is what determines your salary in a free market.

No wonder the lazy and incompetent are so drawn to socialism. It's the only way they can get their participation trophy.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

No wonder the lazy and incompetent are so drawn to socialism. It's the only way they can get their participation trophy.

That, and they realize they'll ****ing die when capitalism is in effect and people don't feel like giving money to charity anymore.

That, and they realize they'll ****ing die when capitalism is in effect and people don't feel like giving money to charity anymore.

I state right now for the record, that I will help ANY person in need who comes to me and is willing to sign a sworn statement that they are in need solely because of their own faults and shortcomings and not due to "society or "bad luck" or any other such thing..

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

From: redrocket | #204

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/carter-crisis/

Jimmy Carter is awesome. His recent editorials for the NY Times were great too. Though damn did his energy goals fail miserably.

And yeah I know it's been going on since the 70s... since the abolishment of the gold standard. COINCIDENCE?!?!?

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_foolmo_
'now dey gotta surfer' - Andrealee Crespo (http://soundcloud.com/deygottasurferautotune)

Sure, people make mistakes. But I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't let the people who've made mistakes rot on the streets.

From: Mr Lasastryke | #209

Sure, people make mistakes. But I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't let the people who've made mistakes rot on the streets.

And the solution is to prevent them from making mistakes by removing their ability to even make the decision in the first place?

--
_foolmo_
'Ulti is like when your parents post something on your facebook status' - Sir Cobain

From: Mr Lasastryke | #209

Sure, people make mistakes. But I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't let the people who've made mistakes rot on the streets.

So, just to be clear, you ARE of the opinion that we should hold a gun to the head of someone who didn't make mistakes and force them to pay for the life and livelihood of the person who did, right?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Remember: Obama wants to steal 40% of rich people's money. Romney wants to steal 35% of rich people's money. Both sides would have you believe this is a vast and completely irreconcilable difference. The implication of course being that anyone who would dare advance the opinion that the government should be taking less than 35% of your money (or, God forbid, none of it at all) is an extremist nutjob well outside of mainstream opinion and therefore not to be taken seriously.

The income tax is by far the most direct way in which most citizens interact with the federal government. On this matter, there is exactly 5% of difference between Obama and Romney. And yet somehow, we're supposed to believe America will be destroyed if one is elected in lieu of the other. How about this cheery little proposition for you: America will be destroyed if we elect either of these men who aspire to the office of thug-in-chief.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

up

(worked a 12 hour day yesterday, gimme a break!)

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

When Ice-T is the voice of reason, we're in a lot of trouble



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

btw john stossel is awesome

--
Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

45 minute interview with our presidential candidate, in case you don't know quite enough about him yet.



Gary Johnson 2012

--
Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Also, the marginal tax rate you speak of is paid by very few people- basically it's a levy on the 5% after the top 1%- the top of the middle class. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, bankers, and small businessmen. But not the bankers and lawyers at the top of their field (such as Harvard grads Obama and Romney) nor very successful businessmen (because then they have large businesses that are better able to maneuver around the tax code). Yes, class warfare exists, and the principal action in it right now is the continued attack by the rich on the middle. In war, you attack the most dangerous parts of your enemy's position, which is why the taxes are focused on this group (the 2nd 5%). These are the people most able to fight back, so you want to render them powerless.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

The income tax is by far the most direct way in which most citizens interact with the federal government. On this matter, there is exactly 5% of difference between Obama and Romney. And yet somehow, we're supposed to believe America will be destroyed if one is elected in lieu of the other. How about this cheery little proposition for you: America will be destroyed if we elect either of these men who aspire to the office of thug-in-chief.

Is it really? 50% of the country doesn't pay income taxes, after all. And for many people who file taxes, they pay very little or nothing after subtracting all their deductions.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
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Yeah I would say the federal anti-piracy regulations are the most common interactions with the feds

--
foolmo
at work

I think the "50% of people don't pay taxes" thing is considering the net effects after the receipt of benefits. In other words, someone making $20k a year still DOES in fact pay income taxes, they just will almost certainly receive a net receipt of money from the government in terms of welfare or whatever.

I mean, even when I was an E-2 making less than minimum wage, I still paid income taxes.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Meanwhile the middle class wastes its resources in the class war attacking the poor. That's a big reason of why the middle class is losing the war with the rich. It's like they're wasting all their resources trying to conquer Somalia while leaving their own borders defenseless against Russian attack. Or the middle class gets riled up and attacks itself with new taxes and regulations thinking that it is attacking the rich. But of course the new taxes and regulation were drafted by the rich and they only inflict damage on the middle class.

Oh middle class, you are hopelessly outmatched. Smuffin, don't worry, the top 1% will continue to win and win and win. You can take joy in your team's victory.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

From: red sox 777 | #229

The law. State sovereignty has been eroded to the point that any law/regulation you come across in daily life is as likely to be federal as state (or the federal government using states as their agents).

Walk into a store and you'll see notices posted about federal and state employment laws. Buy a song on itunes, and you're presented with pages upon pages of contract language, most of which is made relevant by our laws. Buy food and it has to be regulated by the FDA. Buy stocks and your broker has to be regulated by the SEC. Go to college and get financial aid from the government.

Ah, but this is an indirect interaction with government, not a direct one. The business owner is interacting with government, you are not.

From: red sox 777 | #230

Also, the marginal tax rate you speak of is paid by very few people- basically it's a levy on the 5% after the top 1%- the top of the middle class. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, bankers, and small businessmen. But not the bankers and lawyers at the top of their field (such as Harvard grads Obama and Romney) nor very successful businessmen (because then they have large businesses that are better able to maneuver around the tax code). Yes, class warfare exists, and the principal action in it right now is the continued attack by the rich on the middle. In war, you attack the most dangerous parts of your enemy's position, which is why the taxes are focused on this group (the 2nd 5%). These are the people most able to fight back, so you want to render them powerless.

And? This just furthers my point that Obama and Romney are not substantially different. If we assume they agree on the entire taxation system in the United States EXCEPT that when it comes to the top marginal rate, they have a 5% difference, then their overall position on taxation is something like 99% identical.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Ah, but this is an indirect interaction with government, not a direct one. The business owner is interacting with government, you are not.

Indirect/direct is a false dichotomy. It affects me, does it not? Who pays for a large company's $800/hr attorneys? The customer. Plus, if I were to do what I'm supposed to do and read contracts before signing them, it would affect me a lot by making me read for hours every time I want to buy anything.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Indirect/direct is a false dichotomy. It affects me, does it not? Who pays for a large company's $800/hr attorneys? The customer. Plus, if I were to do what I'm supposed to do and read contracts before signing them, it would affect me a lot by making me read for hours every time I want to buy anything.

Technically speaking you're right about this, but the common man doesn't necessarily realize it.

Ask random people on the street WHY you have to click through pages of disclaimers to use anything and I'll bet you over 75% say "because greedy corporations are trying to screw you over." The common man doesn't understand how federal action is the root cause of so many problems. He DOES understand that they take a bunch of his money every month.

On a similar note, I'll bet you that if you did a survey of Americans and asked them whether they were net payers of income tax or not, WELL over 50% would say that they pay. I'd be shocked if the number was less than 90.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

And? This just furthers my point that Obama and Romney are not substantially different. If we assume they agree on the entire taxation system in the United States EXCEPT that when it comes to the top marginal rate, they have a 5% difference, then their overall position on taxation is something like 99% identical.

True dat. The Romney campaign needs to do some kind of national advertising campaign to make people aware that Obama is a 1%er. I think a lot of people out there don't know, or at least don't realize it unless they think about it, which they don't unless someone prompts them with question. Think about it......

Barack Obama, son of a national finance minister. Went to Columbia University, then Harvard Law School. Worked at Sidley Austin (cue photo of their luxury offices) where he worked to help X large company do Y evil thing. Ran for Senate in Illinois, (ghost)-wrote books that generate millions of $ in sales annually. Largest campaign donor: Goldman Sachs.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

I think a "they're both the same" message benefits Obama a lot more than Romney, because Obama's supporters are MUCH more heavily brainwashed and less likely to believe it. I know PLENTY of Republicans who despise Romney. I'm not sure I know any Democrats whose opinion of Obama is any worse than "I'm disappointed on how he has handled a few issues (wars, drugs, etc.) but overall he's doing a great job and I'm willing to give him four more years to turn it around"

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444464304577539063008406518.html

More on the "government created the Internet" lie.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Well, about the first $10k is exempted now from the standard deduction and exemption. Then there's student loan interest, charitable giving, capital losses, and the big one: mortgage interest. I'm sure there's plenty of households making 50k a year and paying 0 taxes.

Which makes you think, can the government force you to buy a house? Seems like they can (call the penalty a tax, the more expensive your house is, the less the penalty).

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Well, you PAY the taxes (through automatic deductions) and THEN you get them refunded.

In any case, do you have a better suggestion as to a more common way in which individual citizens interact with the federal government?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Yeah, the founders of the Internet are some of the most libertarian, free-market advocates that you can find in the world... which is why they created the Internet. Really bad example from Obama there.

--
foolmo
at work

The law. State sovereignty has been eroded to the point that any law/regulation you come across in daily life is as likely to be federal as state (or the federal government using states as their agents).

Walk into a store and you'll see notices posted about federal and state employment laws. Buy a song on itunes, and you're presented with pages upon pages of contract language, most of which is made relevant by our laws. Buy food and it has to be regulated by the FDA. Buy stocks and your broker has to be regulated by the SEC. Go to college and get financial aid from the government.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-07-22/aurora-gun-control-debate/56419042/1?csp=34news

The three worst mass shootings in US history all happened in gun free zones.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

dude, I already posted it!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Great video. My favorite RP interviews are ones like this and the debates where he gets posed questions and he just candidly talks about the issues and explains his answers concisely, and you can really tell that there is no hint of dishonesty or the fakeness that you get with everyone else.

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_foolmo_
'now dey gotta surfer' - Andrealee Crespo (http://soundcloud.com/deygottasurferautotune)

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-sheffield/2012/07/23/rapper-ice-t-stands-second-amendment

Aw yeah.

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PSN: JDTAY87

So I was just reading about the stuff that happened with the Solyndra and Konarka solar companies... god damn, Obama and Romney are literally the same person.

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_foolmo_
'Oh please, if foolmo made that analogy you'd think it was picture perfect' - Biolizard28

audit the fed passes in house

now for the senate

CONTACT YOUR SENATORS

--
Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Perhaps Adam's best video yet!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

I keep coming back to these videos... way too funny. You gotta check them out if you've never seen them.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NWOsuredoessuckass/videos?query=pwns

Bernanke's is the best.

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

SmartMuffin posted...

Perhaps Adam's best video yet!

--
Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

My Congressman may be a socialist (leaning Communist), but every once in awhile, he gets it right!



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Dead on arrival. That's the only way it got so much support in the House. They know it won't pass the Senate, so they can safely vote for it so they can say they did to their voters.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

The government (both parties) would have you believe that the war in Iraq was won and that it is now a peaceful, democratic paradise.



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

I'm not entirely sold on the idea either. Auditing the Fed is fine, but who is doing it? Congress? The Federal Government? A fine way to make things worse. The only good regulator is the free market.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.