Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 182: Sink Beneath Hate

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XIII_rocks
04/02/12 3:41:00 PM
#1:


LOL

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Lopen
04/02/12 3:42:00 PM
#2:


I prefer this one

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XIII_rocks
04/02/12 3:42:00 PM
#3:


LOPEN:
What taint is there to the win over Cena? At all? Cena being an idiot with the People's Elbow?


From: CM_Rock | #491
I'm not familiar with the endings to every Taker match, but how taintless (lol) is his record?


Last few years...last night was whatever you want it to be taint wise. Shawn added an x-factor, and you couldn't predict what would happen without him in there.

Last year was taintless, 25 and 26 vs. Shawn were taintless. 24 had brief interference from Hawkins and Ryder, right? But they provided only a brief distraction. 23 was clean vs. Batista, methinks. 22 vs. Henry was clean, 21 vs. Orton had Bob Orton trying to screw Taker and Taker battled both of them off, 20 was clean over Kane, XIX was unclean but it was meant to be a tag match, right? Can't remember further back than that.

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 3:43:00 PM
#4:


XIII, I meant in terms of tainted in Taker's favor. Like something questionable that happened that favored Taker.

Something happening against Taker just makes him look more impressive.

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sonten1
04/02/12 3:44:00 PM
#5:


But none of those were in Taker's favor except WM19, which was in fact supposed to be a tag match.

So I don't count any of them as tainted because Taker still won them all on his own.

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sonten1
04/02/12 3:45:00 PM
#6:


You've ninja'd me twice now in the last 2 minutes grr

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edwardsdv
04/02/12 3:46:00 PM
#7:


I'll say it again, Triple H is the best in kayfabe.

They have practically never booked anyone stronger ever. Even this summer he got a clean win over Punk. He's beaten everyone and convincingly at one point or another.

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Lopen
04/02/12 3:46:00 PM
#8:


The taint was that Rock didn't beat Cena, Cena beat himself.

It's not tainted in a rules sense but it's tainted in a "was Rock the better man" sense.

Like I consider Austin's win over the Rock at X7 as clean or cleaner than Rock's win over Cena last night simply because chairs were allowed by the rules so it's really no foul on Austin for using them. "Under normal circumstances" maybe Rock wins but you could say the same thing about Cena vs Rock last night since Cena basically tossed it.

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XIII_rocks
04/02/12 3:47:00 PM
#9:


From: sonten1 | #005
But none of those were in Taker's favor except WM19, which was in fact supposed to be a tag match.

So I don't count any of them as tainted because Taker still won them all on his own.


That's fair. I was just mentioning any outside interference. Like Austin's win over Rock at WM15 is tainted and UNCLEAN even though most of the outside shenanigans favoured Rock (didn't they?). But yeah mostly it's just Taker overcoming the odds, streak-wise.

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MrGreenonion
04/02/12 3:48:00 PM
#10:


Well there is the DQ win over Giant Gonzalez in there. Not a dirty finish but it still keeps it from being 20 decisive victories, you know?

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Lopen
04/02/12 3:49:00 PM
#11:


Then again I guess McMahon interfered too. I forgot he pulled Rock off once I thought he just handed Austin a chair.

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 3:52:00 PM
#12:


Lopen posted...
The taint was that Rock didn't beat Cena, Cena beat himself.

It's not tainted in a rules sense but it's tainted in a "was Rock the better man" sense.

Like I consider Austin's win over the Rock at X7 as clean or cleaner than Rock's win over Cena last night simply because chairs were allowed by the rules so it's really no foul on Austin for using them. "Under normal circumstances" maybe Rock wins but you could say the same thing about Cena vs Rock last night since Cena basically tossed it.


Rock had the pin and Vince pulled him off.

That's about as tainted as you can get. Rock had Austin beat, and Austin needed outside interference to save his ass.

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Panthera
04/02/12 3:53:00 PM
#13:


From: edwardsdv | #007
They have practically never booked anyone stronger ever. Even this summer he got a clean win over Punk. He's beaten everyone and convincingly at one point or another.


That was not even close to a clean win <_< Way worse than either of the Punk/Cena matches, Punk/HHH had three different dudes run in to start attacking everyone.

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XIII_rocks
04/02/12 3:54:00 PM
#14:


From: Lopen | #008
The taint was that Rock didn't beat Cena, Cena beat himself.

It's not tainted in a rules sense but it's tainted in a "was Rock the better man" sense.

Like I consider Austin's win over the Rock at X7 as clean or cleaner than Rock's win over Cena last night simply because chairs were allowed by the rules so it's really no foul on Austin for using them. "Under normal circumstances" maybe Rock wins but you could say the same thing about Cena vs Rock last night since Cena basically tossed it.


That was normal circumstances. Your opponent choking is absolutely not a "taint". That is your opponent's problem. Rock was the better man because he took the match more seriously. Cena made a mistake - almost every single big match is decided by somebody making a mistake, whether it be a heel getting too cocky or whatever. That does not taint anything; it's a flaw of Cena's character that cost him the match. Completely on him. No taint.

The X7 win would have been clean had Austin only used a chair, but there was outside interference - a distraction, etc, from Vince. I agree that had Austin only used chairs, that match would have been clean, but outside interference stops a match being totally clean pretty much instantly, even in a no DQ match, in my book.

So even Punk/Cena MitB wasn't completely, 100% clean, though it's about as close to it as you get. I also disagree with eddv saying HHH's win over Punk was clean - the result of that match was completely tainted by the fact that Awesome Truth, Nash and Ace all interfered.

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 3:54:00 PM
#15:


Also, Rock had hit Stone Cold with a Rock Bottom but Vince distracted the ref.

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voltch
04/02/12 3:55:00 PM
#16:


Warrior is stronger than any loser named here.

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XIII_rocks
04/02/12 3:55:00 PM
#17:


Oh, double ninja'd there.

From: Panthera | #013
That was not even close to a clean win <_< Way worse than either of the Punk/Cena matches, Punk/HHH had three different dudes run in to start attacking everyone.


Some people count no DQ matches where there is outside interference as "clean", because the no DQ stip means no rule was broken. I don't really accept that definition at all, but whatever, it's kind of a grey area

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XIII_rocks
04/02/12 3:56:00 PM
#18:


voltch is probably right about warrior

Didn't he kick out of like 5 Macho Man elbows in a row once? That's insane and probably above even Taker levels of endurance.

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voltch
04/02/12 3:58:00 PM
#19:


uuuuh.

He beat Prime Hulk Hogan in the mania ME which is way more impressive than taking 5 elbows from Macho.

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MrGreenonion
04/02/12 3:58:00 PM
#20:


voltch posted...
Warrior is stronger than any loser named here.

It's true, everyone's saying Triple H is possibly the strongest but look what Warrior did to him!

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 3:58:00 PM
#21:


Also, rewatching WMX7's main event reminds me why the current commentary team is f***ing atrocious.

And it was friggin' Heyman! At the time, Lawler/Ross was the gold standard, and Lawler had just quit, and Heyman was friggin' great. Him and Ross didn't have the natural chemistry but Ross was as good as always and Heyman was brilliant.

I'd love to have Heyman replace Lawler.

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voltch
04/02/12 3:59:00 PM
#22:


Triple H got Daniel Bryan'd by Warrior, given Triple H's power levels yeeeeah.

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eaedwards6400
04/02/12 4:01:00 PM
#23:


Rock lost to Goldberg clean and Goldberg beat Brock

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 4:01:00 PM
#24:


eaedwards6400 posted...
Rock lost to Goldberg clean and Goldberg beat Brock

Also lost to Brock clean.

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XIII_rocks
04/02/12 4:01:00 PM
#25:


I dunno, how credible was that elbow as a finisher? Because kicking out of literally 5 of them in a row...I can't think of any other time that's happened. Like, Trips took 4 Brogue Kicks against Sheamus that time and that pinned him, which is the closest thing to it I remember.

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ZeroSignal620
04/02/12 4:01:00 PM
#26:


Ultimate Warrior: "The power must be harnessed within the Warrior, AND I WILL NOT JOB TO HUNTER HEARST HELMSLEY! I MUST MAKE THE FANS AT WRESTLEMANIA XII BECOME ONE WITH THE WARRIOR!"

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voltch
04/02/12 4:01:00 PM
#27:


Hell that Andre the Giant fella's pretty strong, Warrior beat him worse than Undertaker beat DDP.

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Lopen
04/02/12 4:02:00 PM
#28:


Still though.

Outside interference is legal so I mean, it's still not much worse to me than Cena having Rock beat and then showboating and blowing it.

Austin won via stronger social links and Rock won because Cena's judgment was clouded. They're both kinda unrelated directly to the raw skill of the wrestler and similar in my eyes. It's not like Austin didn't plan for Vince to help or anything. Like, if a scheming heel uses his manager to help he retain in a no DQ match, is that tainted too? Or is he simply using his assets? It'd be different if Vince randomly showed up and just screwed with the match, or if Austin cheated, but neither happened. To me they're similar levels of taint.

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eaedwards6400
04/02/12 4:04:00 PM
#29:


From: CM_Rock | #024
eaedwards6400 posted...
Rock lost to Goldberg clean and Goldberg beat Brock

Also lost to Brock clean.


So Rock<Goldberg

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Lopen
04/02/12 4:04:00 PM
#30:


Also I totally agree with voltch's vote for Warrior here. That guy was dumb. You don't kick out of 5 macho elbow drops that's typically something that hospitalizes a guy. Seriously, in WCW he'd do that after matches and have a bunch of referees break it up out of concern for the wrestlers health

And yeah beating peak Hogan clean that's unheard of

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 4:04:00 PM
#31:


Lopen posted...
Austin won via stronger social links.

So I assume Vince is the Devil Arcana Social Link?

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edwardsdv
04/02/12 4:05:00 PM
#32:


I forgot about Warrior, but in terms of consistently going over no matter who was in his way, I still think Trips is hard to top.

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JaKyL25
04/02/12 4:05:00 PM
#33:


Remember that at X-Seven, the match was changed to No DQ at the VERY last minute, and Austin knew while Rock did not.

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 4:06:00 PM
#34:


eaedwards6400 posted...
From: CM_Rock | #024
eaedwards6400 posted...
Rock lost to Goldberg clean and Goldberg beat Brock

Also lost to Brock clean.
So Rock<Goldberg


Goldberg lost to Kevin Nash.

Who lost to HHH.

Who lost to The Rock.

Rock < Goldberg < Nash < HHH < Rock

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Lopen
04/02/12 4:07:00 PM
#35:


From: Jakyl25 | #033
Remember that at X-Seven, the match was changed to No DQ at the VERY last minute, and Austin knew while Rock did not.


Yeah but that's like, scheming power imhhho

Like uh I consider Del Rio's win over Punk and Cena in hell in the cell as clean or cleaner than Rock's win over Cena last night too, for the record

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eaedwards6400
04/02/12 4:08:00 PM
#36:


From: CM_Rock | #034
eaedwards6400 posted...
From: CM_Rock | #024
eaedwards6400 posted...
Rock lost to Goldberg clean and Goldberg beat Brock

Also lost to Brock clean.
So Rock<Goldberg


Goldberg lost to Kevin Nash.

Who lost to HHH.

Who lost to The Rock.

Rock < Goldberg < Nash < HHH < Rock


But Goldberg beat HHH Cleanly
HHH<Rock<Goldberg

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MRNlCEWATCH
04/02/12 4:08:00 PM
#37:


going through the WWE topic on LL and looking at the reactions for the sheamus/daniel bryan match was some good entertainment. they threw a bigger hissy fit than you all did if you can believe that!

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JaKyL25
04/02/12 4:09:00 PM
#38:


Scott Steiner, who was recently released by TNA, posted the following to his Twitter account today:

Can somebody send tna's booking team of pritchard hogan & bischoff video's from ring ka king..booking hogan in a sex tape wont help ratings..what an embarassment to TNA & spike tv. Brother...

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SmartMuffin
04/02/12 4:10:00 PM
#39:




cant be posted enough

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XIII_rocks
04/02/12 4:11:00 PM
#40:


Austin used friends in high places and not wrestling (or fighting, in the case of that match) talent.

In an actual match, your mentality is as much a part of your makeup as your ability to do a Saito Suplex. If you lose a match because you showboat that is absolutely down to you. It's your own flaw as a wrestler, and as a competitor, costing you.

If in basketball a team had a match won and then started doing silly under-the-leg passes or whatever, and then the opposition stole the ball and scored a bunch of times, that is the fault of the team for choking away their lead and not having the necessary mentality to see the match through.

Basically:

Getting outside interference is not an issue of wrestling talent.
Showboating when you "had the match won" is absolutely an issue of wrestling talent.

And besides you can't even say Cena had that match won. If Rock was able to get up and still deliver a Rock Bottom that indicates there was a lot left in the tank. Cena was pinned by that Rock Bottom, too, so it's not like he had much more left in the tank than Rock did (if anything at all).

He could even have been playing possum to lure Cena into the mistake! I mean you might think that's unlikely, but it's as valid an explanation as any.

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Highwind89
04/02/12 4:12:00 PM
#41:


tag
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voltch
04/02/12 4:12:00 PM
#42:


Warrior would beat Brock so bad.

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JaKyL25
04/02/12 4:13:00 PM
#43:


From: voltch | #042
Warrior would beat Brock so bad.


Can Warrior make 265?

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voltch
04/02/12 4:14:00 PM
#44:


Warrior is so powerful he can alter probability itself.

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eaedwards6400
04/02/12 4:14:00 PM
#45:


Now don't kill me for this but I don't completely understand the "YES! YES! YES!" Obsession.

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JaKyL25
04/02/12 4:15:00 PM
#46:


Oh man, imagine the promos for a Warrior vs. Steiner feud.

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 4:15:00 PM
#47:


Lopen, I kind of have an analogy that should work in explaining why Rock's win over Cena is less tainted than Austin's win over Rock.

Rock/Cena would be like the HEAT taking on the Thunder in the NBA Finals. It's game 7, tie game with 10 seconds to go. LeBron's on a break-away with no one in his way, and he decides to get fancy and goes for a 360 reverse jam. He clanks it, Durant gets the rebound, gets down the court and hits a game winning shot to clinch the championship. Like Cena, there was no guarantee that LeBron making that shot was going to win the game. But he got fancy/cocky when he didn't need to and it cost him.

Rock/Austin is like if before the game, the HEAT paid the refs to make calls in their favor to end the game, and when the game was on the line, phantom calls and inept reffing ended up costing the Thunder because every advantage is on the HEAT's side (hell, we can say the game was in Miami like WMX7 was in Texas).

The former was a stupid move on Cena/LeBron's part, but it doesn't taint the win of the Rock/Thunder nearly as much in the scenario where Austin/HEAT needed to gain a significant advantage via aligning themselves with McMahon/Refs to beat Rock/Thunder.

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JaKyL25
04/02/12 4:15:00 PM
#48:


From: eaedwards6400 | #045
Now don't kill me for this but I don't completely understand the "YES! YES! YES!" Obsession.


It's something people enjoy because they find it fun, same as Woo Woo Woo You Know It

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voltch
04/02/12 4:16:00 PM
#49:


Steiner may win the promo battle, but he's a weak minded man.

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CM_Rock
04/02/12 4:16:00 PM
#50:


XIII stole my analogy while I was typing it out.

F*** you.

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