Board 8 > The Official Topic of Freedom and Liberty (Ron Paul 2012)

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SmartMuffin 03/18/12 10:06:00 AM #151:	Plenty of leftists advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy. Really? So plenty of leftists believe that it would be perfectly fine for a state to secede from the union? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883353] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Plenty of leftists advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy.Really? So plenty of leftists believe that it would be perfectly fine for a state to secede from the union? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/18/12 10:44:00 AM #152:	What does secession have to do with foreign policy? -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:883354] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> What does secession have to do with foreign policy? -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/18/12 10:51:00 AM #153:	From: red sox 777 \| #152 What does secession have to do with foreign policy? My point is that small government and non-interventionism are kind of inseparable. If Texas were to say, "Hey guys, we're tired of this big government thing. We declare sovereignty. kay?" then the US government has a choice, to intervene, or not. Exactly which side do you think is going to support intervention? To oppose non-intervention in foreign policy, but not domestically, is just sort of hypocritical. The south did not consider the civil war to be a domestic dispute. They considered it improper intervention by a foreign power. There were also plenty in the north who were true non-interventionists and opposed the war. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883355] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> From: red sox 777 \| #152What does secession have to do with foreign policy?My point is that small government and non-interventionism are kind of inseparable.If Texas were to say, "Hey guys, we're tired of this big government thing. We declare sovereignty. kay?" then the US government has a choice, to intervene, or not. Exactly which side do you think is going to support intervention?To oppose non-intervention in foreign policy, but not domestically, is just sort of hypocritical. The south did not consider the civil war to be a domestic dispute. They considered it improper intervention by a foreign power. There were also plenty in the north who were true non-interventionists and opposed the war. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 03/18/12 11:51:00 AM #154:	To oppose non-intervention in foreign policy, but not domestically, is just sort of hypocritical. Not really. You really don't see a difference between stopping Texas from becoming sovereign and sending troops to Iraq to fight a war? <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:883356] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> To oppose non-intervention in foreign policy, but not domestically, is just sort of hypocritical.Not really. You really don't see a difference between stopping Texas from becoming sovereign and sending troops to Iraq to fight a war? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/18/12 12:53:00 PM #155:	Not really. You really don't see a difference between stopping Texas from becoming sovereign and sending troops to Iraq to fight a war? Iraq is farther away. That's about it. To promote "stopping Texas from becoming sovereign" is to promote intervening in the political affairs of Texas, is it not? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883357] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Not really. You really don't see a difference between stopping Texas from becoming sovereign and sending troops to Iraq to fight a war?Iraq is farther away. That's about it.To promote "stopping Texas from becoming sovereign" is to promote intervening in the political affairs of Texas, is it not? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LOLContests 03/18/12 1:09:00 PM #156:	The south did not consider the civil war to be a domestic dispute. The north did consider it a domestic dispute. Why is the south's opinion considered more legitimate? -- My bracket wasn't good enough to beat SuperNiceDog's in the GameFAQS Rivalry Rumble. Congrats! This is Yesmar. <cite>LOLContests posted [p:883358] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> The south did not consider the civil war to be a domestic dispute.The north did consider it a domestic dispute. Why is the south's opinion considered more legitimate? -- My bracket wasn't good enough to beat SuperNiceDog's in the GameFAQS Rivalry Rumble. Congrats!This is Yesmar. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/18/12 1:32:00 PM #157:	Whatever else you may think, there is one big difference here that was true in 1860 and is true today: Texas ratified the US Constitution. Iraq did not. There is another difference today that was not present in 1860: today it is settled law (settled by war, true, but still settled law) that states may not secede. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:883359] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Whatever else you may think, there is one big difference here that was true in 1860 and is true today: Texas ratified the US Constitution. Iraq did not.There is another difference today that was not present in 1860: today it is settled law (settled by war, true, but still settled law) that states may not secede. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 03/18/12 2:13:00 PM #158:	To promote "stopping Texas from becoming sovereign" is to promote intervening in the political affairs of Texas, is it not? Sure, but my point is that it's not necessarily hypocrisy to say that the government should do different things in different situations. Following your reasoning, I'd be a hypocrite if I support the death penalty as punishment for a murderer, but not a burglar. I don't get why if you think government intervention is bad in one single instance - the war in Iraq - you automatically have to think government intervention is bad in all possible instances. <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:883360] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> To promote "stopping Texas from becoming sovereign" is to promote intervening in the political affairs of Texas, is it not?Sure, but my point is that it's not necessarily hypocrisy to say that the government should do different things in different situations. Following your reasoning, I'd be a hypocrite if I support the death penalty as punishment for a murderer, but not a burglar. I don't get why if you think government intervention is bad in one single instance - the war in Iraq - you automatically have to think government intervention is bad in all possible instances. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/18/12 3:14:00 PM #159:	Then you don't advocate non-intervention as a policy. You advocate an interventionist policy sometimes, and a non-interventionist one other times. Which basically gives you the exact same foreign policy position as George W Bush! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883361] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Then you don't advocate non-intervention as a policy. You advocate an interventionist policy sometimes, and a non-interventionist one other times.Which basically gives you the exact same foreign policy position as George W Bush! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 03/18/12 3:20:00 PM #160:	You advocate an interventionist policy sometimes, and a non-interventionist one other times. Duh? Yeah, I decide what my opinions are by looking at the specific situations, rather than always advocating the same policy regardless of these situations. What a concept! <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:883362] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> You advocate an interventionist policy sometimes, and a non-interventionist one other times.Duh? Yeah, I decide what my opinions are by looking at the specific situations, rather than always advocating the same policy regardless of these situations. What a concept! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/18/12 3:24:00 PM #161:	Then you don't advocate non-intervention as a policy. You advocate an interventionist policy sometimes, and a non-interventionist one other times. Which basically gives you the exact same foreign policy position as George W Bush! Um......it doesn't. There's a spectrum here. Say..... 1920s France: We should intervene in 0% of situations. Ron Paul: We should intervene in 1% of situations. Barack Obama: We should intervene in 40% of situations. George W. Bush: We should intervene in 60% of situations. Dick Cheney: We should intervene in 90% of situations. One world government liberals: We should intervene in 100% of situations. The percentage could be very different from those of course, but the point is there is a spectrum. It's not that there's only 3 positions, 0%, 100%, and everything in between is the same. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:883363] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Then you don't advocate non-intervention as a policy. You advocate an interventionist policy sometimes, and a non-interventionist one other times.Which basically gives you the exact same foreign policy position as George W Bush!Um......it doesn't. There's a spectrum here. Say.....1920s France: We should intervene in 0% of situations.Ron Paul: We should intervene in 1% of situations.Barack Obama: We should intervene in 40% of situations.George W. Bush: We should intervene in 60% of situations.Dick Cheney: We should intervene in 90% of situations.One world government liberals: We should intervene in 100% of situations.The percentage could be very different from those of course, but the point is there is a spectrum. It's not that there's only 3 positions, 0%, 100%, and everything in between is the same. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/18/12 3:25:00 PM #162:	The percentage could be very different from those of course, but the point is there is a spectrum. It's not that there's only 3 positions, 0%, 100%, and everything in between is the same. Obviously. And we're playing semantics here, but I would say that you should probably at least be under 25% if you are going to claim you advocate non-intervention. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883364] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> The percentage could be very different from those of course, but the point is there is a spectrum. It's not that there's only 3 positions, 0%, 100%, and everything in between is the same.Obviously. And we're playing semantics here, but I would say that you should probably at least be under 25% if you are going to claim you advocate non-intervention. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 03/18/12 3:27:00 PM #163:	What counts as 25% though? In particular, exactly which choices count in that percentage? -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:883365] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> What counts as 25% though? In particular, exactly which choices count in that percentage? -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/18/12 3:29:00 PM #164:	From: LordoftheMorons \| #163 What counts as 25% though? In particular, exactly which choices count in that percentage? Any use of military force (including secret assassinations and sabotage and whatnot) that is not obviously defensive in nature I would say. Economic sanctions and such are a different animal altogether. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883366] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> From: LordoftheMorons \| #163What counts as 25% though? In particular, exactly which choices count in that percentage?Any use of military force (including secret assassinations and sabotage and whatnot) that is not obviously defensive in nature I would say.Economic sanctions and such are a different animal altogether. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 03/18/12 3:33:00 PM #165:	Well I mean yeah, you can define what counts as intervention, but what counts as a choice where we COULD have intervened, but didn't? Depending on that definition, everyone could have really high or low percentages. Like, does not invading China because they opposed some UN sanction we wanted passed count as an instance of non-intervention? Probably not, if we're being reasonable, but where do we draw the line? -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:883367] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Well I mean yeah, you can define what counts as intervention, but what counts as a choice where we COULD have intervened, but didn't? Depending on that definition, everyone could have really high or low percentages. Like, does not invading China because they opposed some UN sanction we wanted passed count as an instance of non-intervention? Probably not, if we're being reasonable, but where do we draw the line? -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/18/12 3:42:00 PM #166:	Probably not, if we're being reasonable, but where do we draw the line? I'd say you draw the line at issues that are being publicly debated. Like, as far as I can recall, nobody has ever advocated for a military invasion of China. But there are PLENTY of people who RIGHT NOW are arguing for intervention in Iran, Syria, and Uganda, just to start with. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883368] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Probably not, if we're being reasonable, but where do we draw the line?I'd say you draw the line at issues that are being publicly debated. Like, as far as I can recall, nobody has ever advocated for a military invasion of China. But there are PLENTY of people who RIGHT NOW are arguing for intervention in Iran, Syria, and Uganda, just to start with. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 03/18/12 4:02:00 PM #167:	hey we should go invade china -- _foolmo_ 'It's easy to get yourself in trouble if you start quoting people who don't like you in your signature' - Mods <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:883369] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> hey we should go invade china -- _foolmo_'It's easy to get yourself in trouble if you start quoting people who don't like you in your signature' - Mods </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/19/12 10:56:00 AM #168:	Intervening in the Chinese Civil War was proposed and debated after World War II. Of course the circumstances now are pretty different. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:883370] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Intervening in the Chinese Civil War was proposed and debated after World War II. Of course the circumstances now are pretty different. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TomNook7 03/19/12 11:28:00 AM #169:	http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2012/03/13/ron-paul%E2%80%99s-economic-platform-cheered-by-%E2%80%98black-swan%E2%80%99-author/ -- Genesis does what Nintendon't http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8 <cite>TomNook7 posted [p:883371] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2012/03/13/ron-paul%E2%80%99s-economic-platform-cheered-by-%E2%80%98black-swan%E2%80%99-author/ -- Genesis does what Nintendon'thttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8 </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/19/12 5:59:00 PM #170:	Yep. People who actually know anything about economics love Ron Paul! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883372] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Yep. People who actually know anything about economics love Ron Paul! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/19/12 9:34:00 PM #171:	So... APPARENTLY a lot of the more "hardcore" AnCap people are now campaigning for Jesse Benton to be fired. AVTM is promising that in his upcoming podcast which launches on Wednesday, he isn't going to just go after Benton, but "challenge" Dr. Paul himself. Should be interesting! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883373] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> So... APPARENTLY a lot of the more "hardcore" AnCap people are now campaigning for Jesse Benton to be fired. AVTM is promising that in his upcoming podcast which launches on Wednesday, he isn't going to just go after Benton, but "challenge" Dr. Paul himself. Should be interesting! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 03/19/12 10:26:00 PM #172:	Is it bad that I spent that whole article thinking he made the movie Black Swan, not just some economics book? -- _foolmo_ 'Illegal activities is a slight misnomer, most of it is not related to material that is actually illegal.' - nintendogrl1 <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:883374] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Is it bad that I spent that whole article thinking he made the movie Black Swan, not just some economics book? -- _foolmo_'Illegal activities is a slight misnomer, most of it is not related to material that is actually illegal.' - nintendogrl1 </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/20/12 6:41:00 PM #173:	lest we forget http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/26/AR2005102602255.html -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883375] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> lest we forgethttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/26/AR2005102602255.html -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/21/12 7:01:00 AM #174:	-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883376] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/21/12 8:25:00 AM #175:	Dr. Paul absolutely hits it out of the park, especially on abortion. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883377] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Dr. Paul absolutely hits it out of the park, especially on abortion. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EndOfDiscOne 03/21/12 8:29:00 AM #176:	What did he say about abortion? I can't listen right now. -- http://img.imgcake.com/fitgirljpgta.jpg <cite>EndOfDiscOne posted [p:883378] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> What did he say about abortion? I can't listen right now. -- http://img.imgcake.com/fitgirljpgta.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/21/12 8:32:00 AM #177:	Basically that it's not nearly as simple as a "woman's right to choose" because there is a conflicting demand with the child's "right to exist." He points out that if a mother killed a child immediately after it was born, we'd charge her with murder, but many on the right want her to be able to kill the child the day before it's born with no consequence whatsoever. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883379] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Basically that it's not nearly as simple as a "woman's right to choose" because there is a conflicting demand with the child's "right to exist." He points out that if a mother killed a child immediately after it was born, we'd charge her with murder, but many on the right want her to be able to kill the child the day before it's born with no consequence whatsoever. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/21/12 8:39:00 AM #178:	http://reason.com/blog/2012/03/21/supreme-court-rules-unanimously-against You don't see 9-0 SCOTUS decisions all that often. Suck it, EPA. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883380] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> http://reason.com/blog/2012/03/21/supreme-court-rules-unanimously-againstYou don't see 9-0 SCOTUS decisions all that often. Suck it, EPA. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EndOfDiscOne 03/21/12 8:45:00 AM #179:	*SmartMuffin posted...* Basically that it's not nearly as simple as a "woman's right to choose" because there is a conflicting demand with the child's "right to exist." He points out that if a mother killed a child immediately after it was born, we'd charge her with murder, but many on the right want her to be able to kill the child the day before it's born with no consequence whatsoever. Spot on, I agree completely. -- http://img.imgcake.com/fitgirljpgta.jpg <cite>EndOfDiscOne posted [p:883381] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> SmartMuffin posted...Basically that it's not nearly as simple as a "woman's right to choose" because there is a conflicting demand with the child's "right to exist." He points out that if a mother killed a child immediately after it was born, we'd charge her with murder, but many on the right want her to be able to kill the child the day before it's born with no consequence whatsoever.Spot on, I agree completely. -- http://img.imgcake.com/fitgirljpgta.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JeffreyRaze 03/21/12 8:56:00 AM #180:	Uh... I've not run into anyone advocating abortions that late myself. At all >_>... Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus. -- http://img.imgcake.com/AlecTrevylan006/JeffRaze1pngdy.png <cite>JeffreyRaze posted [p:883382] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Uh... I've not run into anyone advocating abortions that late myself. At all >_>...Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus. -- http://img.imgcake.com/AlecTrevylan006/JeffRaze1pngdy.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EndOfDiscOne 03/21/12 9:14:00 AM #181:	Pretty sure Cyclo among other B8ers advocates partial birth abortion. -- http://img.imgcake.com/fitgirljpgta.jpg <cite>EndOfDiscOne posted [p:883383] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Pretty sure Cyclo among other B8ers advocates partial birth abortion. -- http://img.imgcake.com/fitgirljpgta.jpg </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/21/12 9:22:00 AM #182:	Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus. And how do you know when this is the case? Is it the same for every fetus? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883384] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus.And how do you know when this is the case? Is it the same for every fetus? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/21/12 9:46:00 AM #183:	First evar AVTM podcast is up! http://www.adamvstheman.com/podcast -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883385] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> First evar AVTM podcast is up!http://www.adamvstheman.com/podcast -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 03/21/12 10:21:00 AM #184:	Hilarious video. Ron Paul beats Santorum in every point they mention (even the sweater vests)... except for children. RP only has 5, right? But they're all alive so that must count for something... -- _foolmo_ 'Ulti is like when your parents post something on your facebook status' - Sir Cobain <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:883386] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Hilarious video. Ron Paul beats Santorum in every point they mention (even the sweater vests)... except for children. RP only has 5, right? But they're all alive so that must count for something... -- _foolmo_'Ulti is like when your parents post something on your facebook status' - Sir Cobain </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/21/12 11:51:00 AM #185:	http://reason.com/blog/2012/03/21/supreme-court-rules-unanimously-against You don't see 9-0 SCOTUS decisions all that often. Suck it, EPA. Excellent decision. I think 9-0 decisions are somewhat more common than the perception is because they usually don't make the news. Though, the other reason they aren't common is that SCOTUS only takes hard cases (usually that lower courts have disagreed upon) to start with. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:883387] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> http://reason.com/blog/2012/03/21/supreme-court-rules-unanimously-againstYou don't see 9-0 SCOTUS decisions all that often. Suck it, EPA.Excellent decision. I think 9-0 decisions are somewhat more common than the perception is because they usually don't make the news. Though, the other reason they aren't common is that SCOTUS only takes hard cases (usually that lower courts have disagreed upon) to start with. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 03/21/12 12:00:00 PM #186:	*SmartMuffin posted...* Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus. And how do you know when this is the case? Is it the same for every fetus? It's not the same for every fetus, but just as we know that a typical pregnancy takes around 9 months with some standard deviation (13 days apparently), there is an average time a fetus gains the ability to feel pain and think. I don't know the numbers, but presumably fetus's start to develop neurons at a time which roughly follows a normal distribution, and if we're a few standard deviations before this time we can be fairly certain that the fetus hasn't yet developed a nervous system. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:883388] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> SmartMuffin posted...Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus.And how do you know when this is the case? Is it the same for every fetus?It's not the same for every fetus, but just as we know that a typical pregnancy takes around 9 months with some standard deviation (13 days apparently), there is an average time a fetus gains the ability to feel pain and think. I don't know the numbers, but presumably fetus's start to develop neurons at a time which roughly follows a normal distribution, and if we're a few standard deviations before this time we can be fairly certain that the fetus hasn't yet developed a nervous system. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JeffreyRaze 03/21/12 12:24:00 PM #187:	^this, pretty much. I've really never heard anyone support a third trimester abortion for example, though oddly enough I've hear many pro-lifers claim people do >_> -- MMBN style fighting game made by me in the link below! http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/184947-b8bn <cite>JeffreyRaze posted [p:883389] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> ^this, pretty much. I've really never heard anyone support a third trimester abortion for example, though oddly enough I've hear many pro-lifers claim people do >_> -- MMBN style fighting game made by me in the link below!http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/184947-b8bn </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 03/21/12 7:52:00 PM #188:	Well it seems kinda weird to say "my body, my choice" when it's really just "my body, my choice, until 3 months in" -- _foolmo_ 'You are obviously intelligent and insightful' - Sir Chris about me <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:883390] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Well it seems kinda weird to say "my body, my choice" when it's really just "my body, my choice, until 3 months in" -- _foolmo_'You are obviously intelligent and insightful' - Sir Chris about me </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
metroid composite 03/21/12 7:57:00 PM #189:	*SmartMuffin posted...* Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus. And how do you know when this is the case? Is it the same for every fetus? Pretty similar, yeah. -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision <cite>metroid composite posted [p:883391] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> SmartMuffin posted...Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus.And how do you know when this is the case? Is it the same for every fetus?Pretty similar, yeah. -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/21/12 7:59:00 PM #190:	From: LordoftheMorons \| #186 *SmartMuffin posted...* Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus. And how do you know when this is the case? Is it the same for every fetus? It's not the same for every fetus, but just as we know that a typical pregnancy takes around 9 months with some standard deviation (13 days apparently), there is an average time a fetus gains the ability to feel pain and think. I don't know the numbers, but presumably fetus's start to develop neurons at a time which roughly follows a normal distribution, and if we're a few standard deviations before this time we can be fairly certain that the fetus hasn't yet developed a nervous system. I'm not all that comfortable with relying on a bell curve and a standard deviation for whether or not we're committing murder or just "discarding a useless lump of cells" In fact, I'll take a classic liberal complaint and flip it on them. Most leftists who favor abortion oppose the death penalty. Are you saying the death penalty would be totally okay as long as we said something like "well, if we assume that truly guilty murderers are normally distributed, the odds of an innocent person being killed are more than two standard deviations away from the mean, so we might as well just have the death penalty because it isn't very likely an innocent person will be executed." -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883392] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> From: LordoftheMorons \| #186SmartMuffin posted...Almost everyone I've talked to support it only when you perform the abortion before the fetus gains the ability to sense and react to stimulus.And how do you know when this is the case? Is it the same for every fetus?It's not the same for every fetus, but just as we know that a typical pregnancy takes around 9 months with some standard deviation (13 days apparently), there is an average time a fetus gains the ability to feel pain and think. I don't know the numbers, but presumably fetus's start to develop neurons at a time which roughly follows a normal distribution, and if we're a few standard deviations before this time we can be fairly certain that the fetus hasn't yet developed a nervous system.I'm not all that comfortable with relying on a bell curve and a standard deviation for whether or not we're committing murder or just "discarding a useless lump of cells"In fact, I'll take a classic liberal complaint and flip it on them. Most leftists who favor abortion oppose the death penalty. Are you saying the death penalty would be totally okay as long as we said something like "well, if we assume that truly guilty murderers are normally distributed, the odds of an innocent person being killed are more than two standard deviations away from the mean, so we might as well just have the death penalty because it isn't very likely an innocent person will be executed." -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 03/21/12 8:44:00 PM #191:	That's a bad analogy, because most people think that even guilty people don't deserve to be executed -- _foolmo_ 'Oh please, if foolmo made that analogy you'd think it was picture perfect' - Biolizard28 <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:883393] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> That's a bad analogy, because most people think that even guilty people don't deserve to be executed -- _foolmo_'Oh please, if foolmo made that analogy you'd think it was picture perfect' - Biolizard28 </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/21/12 9:00:00 PM #192:	Doesn't seem to me that "can feel pain" should matter. People in comas can't feel pain either. The real criterion of course is when the soul enters the body. But of course no one knows the answer to that except God. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:883394] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Doesn't seem to me that "can feel pain" should matter. People in comas can't feel pain either.The real criterion of course is when the soul enters the body. But of course no one knows the answer to that except God. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/21/12 9:23:00 PM #193:	From: foolm0ron \| #191 That's a bad analogy, because most people think that even guilty people don't deserve to be executed I just mean, I'm not comfortable with something like "abortion should be legal because we're only killing actual babies 5% of the time, 95% of the time they're just undeveloped clumps of cells" -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883395] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> From: foolm0ron \| #191That's a bad analogy, because most people think that even guilty people don't deserve to be executedI just mean, I'm not comfortable with something like "abortion should be legal because we're only killing actual babies 5% of the time, 95% of the time they're just undeveloped clumps of cells" -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 03/21/12 11:40:00 PM #194:	From: red sox 777 \| #192 The real criterion of course is when the soul enters the body. But of course no one knows the answer to that except God. Isn't that the argument that pro-life people say for why life begins at conception? -- _foolmo_ 'but that statement is something only an Aspergers patient would say' - UltimaterializerX <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:883396] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> From: red sox 777 \| #192The real criterion of course is when the soul enters the body. But of course no one knows the answer to that except God.Isn't that the argument that pro-life people say for why life begins at conception? -- _foolmo_'but that statement is something only an Aspergers patient would say' - UltimaterializerX </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/22/12 12:27:00 AM #195:	It's the real criterion that is always in everyone's mind but that no one brings up. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:883397] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> It's the real criterion that is always in everyone's mind but that no one brings up. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 03/22/12 12:32:00 AM #196:	Not really Souls are obviously a religious concept, and there is no justification to make a law based on something like that -- _foolmo_ 'nice comma splice' - TomNook7 <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:883398] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Not reallySouls are obviously a religious concept, and there is no justification to make a law based on something like that -- _foolmo_'nice comma splice' - TomNook7 </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/22/12 7:00:00 AM #197:	And yeah, there are a decent amount of leftists who believe that the soul does not exist and human beings are nothing more than intelligent apes. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883399] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> And yeah, there are a decent amount of leftists who believe that the soul does not exist and human beings are nothing more than intelligent apes. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 03/22/12 7:27:00 AM #198:	Write this down because you'll never hear it again. Bill Maher is absolutely 100% correct on this. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/opinion/please-stop-apologizing.html -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:883400] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> Write this down because you'll never hear it again. Bill Maher is absolutely 100% correct on this.http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/opinion/please-stop-apologizing.html -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 03/22/12 12:33:00 PM #199:	That is why it is not discussed. But it is the test that everyone is thinking about. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:883401] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> That is why it is not discussed. But it is the test that everyone is thinking about. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NeoElfboy 03/22/12 1:27:00 PM #200:	I just mean, I'm not comfortable with something like "abortion should be legal because we're only killing actual babies 5% of the time, 95% of the time they're just undeveloped clumps of cells" It's fine to feel that way; 5% may well be unacceptably high. So you just move the cutoff point until 5% shrinks to 0.05%, or whatever number you find acceptable. And yeah, there are a decent amount of leftists who believe that the soul does not exist and human beings are nothing more than intelligent apes. A decent number of right-wingers believe this too, as do a decent number of libertarians. -- The RPG Duelling League: www.rpgdl.com An unparalleled source for RPG information and discussion <cite>NeoElfboy posted [p:883402] in The Offici... [t:62176259]...</cite> <quote> I just mean, I'm not comfortable with something like "abortion should be legal because we're only killing actual babies 5% of the time, 95% of the time they're just undeveloped clumps of cells"It's fine to feel that way; 5% may well be unacceptably high. So you just move the cutoff point until 5% shrinks to 0.05%, or whatever number you find acceptable.And yeah, there are a decent amount of leftists who believe that the soul does not exist and human beings are nothing more than intelligent apes.A decent number of right-wingers believe this too, as do a decent number of libertarians. -- The RPG Duelling League: www.rpgdl.comAn unparalleled source for RPG information and discussion </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Board 8 > The Official Topic of Freedom and Liberty (Ron Paul 2012) (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > The Official Topic of Freedom and Liberty (Ron Paul 2012)