Board 8 > The Official Topic of Freedom and Liberty (Ron Paul 2012)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Brokered convention is our only hope at this point, so I hope Santorum and Gingrich both stay in till the very end!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

And really, they know that if they stay in, a brokered convention is really likely.... and also that only RP will benefit from it. Maybe they are secretly working together to support RP over Romney? CONSPIRACY!

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_foolmo_
'Ulti is like when your parents post something on your facebook status' - Sir Cobain

If they want a brokered convention at this point, it'd be better for one of them to drop out, because they continue to LFF each other and Romney is getting more delegates as a result.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Also, I'm fairly sure both Santorum and Gingrich would support Romney over RP in a heartbeat if it came to that. The most RP will be able to get at a brokered convention is to choose who gets the nomination.

And looks like Santorum won, but dayum, Romney is getting 30% in the Deep South. Looks like the voters have decided that this one is over and it's time to fall in line. But fortunately for Paul, the logic of falling in line means that states like California and Illinois can give him 45%+ as long as Romney is in no danger of actually losing.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Next time this topic is created, it just might be the official Tom Woods topic. I absolutely love his Biden - Romney box. So brilliant and so true.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

**** yeah virginia

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Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Wanna keep up with the most destructive organization in the world?

https://twitter.com/#!/federalreserve

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Oh man, now there are going to be Wall Street bots monitoring that twitter feed 24/7 initiating massive trades in milliseconds based on the bots' analysis of the tweets. No time for a human to review because then other people would know about the news too and the opportunity would go away.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

I hope Bernanke toys with them. Make a tweet saying "QE3 QE3 QE3 QE3 multiplier QE3 must lower unemployment QE3." Then make another tweet saying "lol just kidding 60 seconds later." Watch the chaos unfold.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

If a non-government entity did that they'd get thrown in jail for manipulating the markets.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

aaaaand right on cue

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73949.html#ixzz1p9kxisx9

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Might have to bail on this one in favor of Mitt. You people make it really hard to support Ron Paul, and I disagree with him on the gold standard. Can we have Ron Paul as president but Ben Bernanke as economic czar? RP can cut out all the government spending and borrowing, but Bernanke can keep the money printing going.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

red sox 777 posted...
Might have to bail on this one in favor of Mitt. You people make it really hard to support Ron Paul, and I disagree with him on the gold standard. Can we have Ron Paul as president but Ben Bernanke as economic czar? RP can cut out all the government spending and borrowing, but Bernanke can keep the money printing going.

What, specifically, do we do that makes it hard to support Ron Paul?

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From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch

Mainly foolmo and his you're with us or you're against us approach on the gold standard.

But the more important issue is that I don't agree with Ron Paul's position on the gold standard, though I agree with him on almost everything else. The problem is that I believe going on the gold standard will cause a massive, unparalleled, depression. There isn't a good moral reason for using gold as currency instead of credit either. The real hazard of fiat currency is what happened in Germany, Argentina, and Zimbabwe, which is something that cannot happen to us as long as we have the world's reserve currency. There's no need for us to give that up willingly at any time before the world pries it away from us. Which looks like it could be a long time right now as the other central banks of the world have gone quite as wild as the Fed in printing money.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

On another note, the national debt isn't as big a problem right now as it seems because yields on US Treasuries are so low right now that the government might as well borrow. This is debt that has an interest rate that is literally lower than inflation. I dunno how long that can last, probably not too long (seems the only reason to hold treasuries at these rates is because it's better than doing nothing and you're scared of everything else), but as long as it does........

Let's just say that if any investment bank could borrow money at these rates, they'd be all over it. Then they've invest the money if stuff that gives them a higher return and make big profits.

Being big and powerful really does have its benefits. When small countries like Greece and Portugal do what we do, the interest they pay on their bonds goes sky high. Meanwhile the bond yields for the US, Germany, and Japan are at record lows. It seems to defy sense almost- Congress does not avoid default until the last day, and the result is stocks go down while US treasuries go up. The very instruments that were about to default. Their price goes up and the yield/interest goes down. Incredible. But as long as the market acts this way, might as well take advantage of it, no?

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

RP just wants sound money. It doesn't HAVE to be gold, but just something that is backed by actual demand. Gold just happens to fit the requirement AND it's in the Constitution.

From: red sox 777 | #115
which is something that cannot happen to us as long as we have the world's reserve currency

Yeah, and what do you do when the world gives up on the dollar? I know you realize that the current system isn't sustainable, but you just don't care about fixing it for some reason. Maybe you don't care about the future, maybe you think the US is somehow special and invincible to a major collapse, or maybe you think this will only be a problem way in the future and it's dumb to argue about it now. But you DO recognize that there is a problem, and the ONLY candidate trying even a little bit to talk about it is RP. Maybe you think birth control mandates are a more serious issue, I dunno.

Now, I'm not a genius, or even well-versed, in economics, but there's something about a 76 year old man who has spent the last 30 years arguing economic policy that makes me feel like he knows what he's talking about. Especially when he literally predicted the last 10 years of our country's history, many years prior, while people like Romney and Obama ) were entirely oblivious to everything.

Mainly foolmo and his you're with us or you're against us approach on the gold standard.

So I have your vote in the palm of my hand, huh? Feels good man.

But it's not a "with us or against us" thing, it's like if your house was on fire and you told the firefighters to just put out living room and bedroom and kitchen and just leave the bathroom... that doesn't really solve the problem of your house being on fire, as it will just grow right back.

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_foolmo_
'but that statement is something only an Aspergers patient would say' - UltimaterializerX

Well, I'd say it's something that has to be done gradually. Remember, too, that fiat money is already subject to demand- everything is. If people stop demanding the dollar, its value will fall. Same with treasuries- it seems crazy that the US government can borrow for lower than ever right now, but that's what the market demands! When the demand falls, we will have to change.

There is hope on this too- the Federal Reserve is not Congress. Unlike Congress, the Fed does not have a long history of uninterrupted constant increases to spending. Bernanke says that once the crisis is over, he will stop QE, and it could be true. Now, the reason the system we've built up in the past couple of decades is bad is leverage. It creates bubbles, creates imaginary wealth. Since 2008, the banks have been undergoing a period of extreme detox- deleveraging that is. Normally this would create lots of deflation as the money supply shrinks dramatically, but the Fed has been going out and printing money. That's why the massive printing of money has not yet substantially increased the cost of things.

So the idea is to shift the toxic waste from the private sector to the Fed. This doesn't get rid of it, but it does let us deal with it over a long period of time, as opposed to sending the country into a death spiral immediately.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Gradual is fine, as long as the problem is being addressed as a serious one instead of outright ignored entirely.

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_foolmo_
'he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance' - ertyu quoting Tidus

welcome to being a single-issue voter, population: red sox

enjoy voting for someone who you disagree with on 50% of the issues because you refuse to vote for someone who you disagree with on 5% of the issues

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

If that single issue is important enough! For example, if a candidate proposed repealing the First Amendment, that would be a dealbreaker for most of us, would it not?

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

From: red sox 777 | #121
If that single issue is important enough! For example, if a candidate proposed repealing the First Amendment, that would be a dealbreaker for most of us, would it not?

Funny you should mention that.



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

From the IBET facebook page...

"if the objective of the military is to preserve domestic freedom, they are failing miserably"

Something to ponder. Wish I could argue, but I really can't.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

oh man, here's another one

"Thank you troops for swearing a meaningless oath that you had no intention of living up to, because that would mean going to prison. "

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Can we have Ron Paul as president but Ben Bernanke as economic czar? RP can cut out all the government spending and borrowing, but Bernanke can keep the money printing going.

I like how you make it sound like government spending and borrowing aren't economic issues >_>

Yeah, economic czar is the wrong term. Monetary czar is better. Which he already is right now, of course.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/03/15/judge-napolitano-on-reports-that-one-texas-county-may-be-getting-a-drone/

When did Shep grow a set?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

http://seekingalpha.com/article/438521-austerity-gold-standard-greece

Here's an article that does a pretty good job of explaining the perils of issuing sovereign debt in a currency you don't control, such as gold, or the Euro for Greece and other European nations right now.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

From: red sox 777 | #129
http://seekingalpha.com/article/438521-austerity-gold-standard-greece

Here's an article that does a pretty good job of explaining the perils of issuing sovereign debt in a currency you don't control, such as gold, or the Euro for Greece and other European nations right now.

Really makes you salivate for that whole global currency the leftists are pushing for, huh?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Really makes you salivate for that whole global currency the leftists are pushing for, huh?

You know, now that I think about it, I never hear about a global currency from anyone except the right. Either to claim that the left is going to force it upon us, or to promote gold as a global currency.

Either way, I think I'll be happy if the Euro goes away and the European countries reinstate their own currencies. European nations should be proud of their heritage and independence and shouldn't want a United States of Europe. Plus, the deutsche mark, drachma, lira, etc. just sound so much cooler than the euro. I mean, they use drachmas in the Bible. How cool is that? And if Italy wants to name its new currency the denarius instead of the lira, I'd be in full support of that.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

You know, now that I think about it, I never hear about a global currency from anyone except the right. Either to claim that the left is going to force it upon us, or to promote gold as a global currency.

Well, they don't say it very loudly, because they know how much people would hate it. Glenn Beck plays clips of people admitting to it often enough.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

"The leftists" don't want a global currency. Some leftists do. Some rightists do as well.

Just started reading the Illiad. Absolutely amazing that human nature has changed so little in 3000 years.

"What cause have I to war at thy decree?
The distant Trojans never injured me;"

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Sadly, it's also true that it only takes one side to start a war. I highly recommend the book Persian Fire, by the way- it's a history of the Persian invasion of Greece. And brings tears to my eyes to think of the courage it took to defend freedom against the greatest empire of the time.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Didn't the Greeks have a bunch of slavery? And didn't the Persians allow religious freedom? Is it really so black and white?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Well....I guess the idea is this. In Greece, every free man was free. In Persia the only person who would be considered free in the same sense was the king. The Greeks would consider King Xerxes a free man, their equal, but all his subjects to be slaves.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

here's an amazing speech from Tom Woods on the libertarian case for non-intervention. It's long, but very well worth it. I challenge any of you to find anything in there that you would seriously dispute.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Freedom =/= Equality, and there can exist imperfect freedom. My own feeling is that America and the West historically draws much of its deep moral fiber from Sparta- much more than Athens. The Spartan idea of freedom and the American conservative idea of freedom are fairly similar.

And as for black and white, it's not, which is why it is so riveting. The Persians could and did make a good argument that everything else but freedom would be better for Greece if the Greeks just surrendered. In exchange for a small gift of allegiance, they would receive greater prosperity, greater equality (cept for King Xerxes anyway), and more of just about anything they might want. On the other side of the scale stood one thing only: freedom. And not even what we might consider a good notion of freedom, an idea of freedom that we would think had a lot of problems. And yet, even this, this freedom was so important to the Greeks that they abandoned every other consideration to fight a war in which they were vastly outnumbered and defeat seemed all but certain. That is how much they cared for freedom, and that is why it induces tears.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

And it wasn't a case of intervention- the Persians told them to surrender or be destroyed.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Nobody here to dispute that video, there's precious few neocons on this board!

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Nobody here to dispute that video, there's precious few neocons on this board!

I was mainly interested in how any leftists might dispute it.

Stating "I completely agree with Tom Woods on foreign policy" is the first step to your new life as an AnCap!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Leftists aren't going to dispute it until we come to a war they agree with. Leftists have an amazing ability to believe that they are for peace and have always been for peace during the times when they are for peace, completely forgetting the times when they were for war.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Leftists aren't going to dispute it until we come to a war they agree with. Leftists have an amazing ability to believe that they are for peace and have always been for peace during the times when they are for peace, completely forgetting the times when they were for war.

not sure if serious

From: SmartMuffin | #142

I can imagine a power rangers style Megazord where Romney is one arm and Obama is the other

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_foolmo_
'To be foolmo'd is to be better opinion'd.' - Blairville

HA-HA! I, TOO, LIKE BURRITOS TO INGEST!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Leftists aren't going to dispute it until we come to a war they agree with. Leftists have an amazing ability to believe that they are for peace and have always been for peace during the times when they are for peace, completely forgetting the times when they were for war.

There is such a thing as leftist interventionists.

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My bracket wasn't good enough to beat SuperNiceDog's in the GameFAQS Rivalry Rumble. Congrats!
This is Yesmar.

There is such a thing as leftist interventionists.

You must have made a typo there. I'm sure you meant to say there's no such thing as leftist NON-interventionists.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

I'm sure you meant to say there's no such thing as leftist NON-interventionists.

Plenty of leftists advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy. Contrary to popular belief (among some people), we don't see everything in terms of black and white.