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Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 171: Against All Odds, a good TNA PPV!

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Rad Link 5
02/11/12 11:29:00 AM
#101:


WCW Jericho had all the young athleticism, but not as much of the ring smarts. I don't remember much from his early early WWF matches, which probably isn't good, but it doesn't feel like it was too long before he was having great matches with Benoit and Angle.

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voltch
02/11/12 11:31:00 AM
#102:


He started getting "okay" against Chyna. Didn't really have many PPV matches early on and the few he did weren't out of this world special.

Also Stephanie is beyond annoying.

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Rad Link 5
02/11/12 11:33:00 AM
#103:


Stephanie was like her day's Vickie.

Is this before her boob job? Because after it, you start not to care about how annoying she is. From a heel perspective, it was not a smart move.

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voltch
02/11/12 11:40:00 AM
#104:


Middle of the love triangle feud.

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JaKyL25
02/11/12 11:41:00 AM
#105:


I had a HUGE crush on Stephanie back in the day so the voice never bothered me.

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Rad Link 5
02/11/12 11:45:00 AM
#106:


That's before the boob job, yeah.

After that, between her having ridiculous boobs, and the faces making fun of her ridiculous boobs all the time, you can't even really get angry at her.

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JaKyL25
02/11/12 11:46:00 AM
#107:


I actually thought she looked worse after the boob job.

I prefer the McMahon-Helmsley Era version.

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Wanglicious
02/11/12 11:48:00 AM
#108:


pre boob job steph was the best.
post was good too but she really didn't need it.

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Rad Link 5
02/11/12 11:48:00 AM
#109:


Some people don't like breasts bigger than a girl's head. I get that.

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JaKyL25
02/11/12 11:52:00 AM
#110:


Some of my other favorite Divas are Stacy Keibler and AJ, so I guess boobs aren't a priority for me.

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edwardsdv
02/11/12 11:53:00 AM
#111:


My favorites have been AJ, Eve, Maria, and Victoria.

I dont know WHAT I want.

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voltch
02/11/12 11:56:00 AM
#112:


Hmm Blackman's got a nice Hardcore reign going, dunno if it tops the frenzy of Crash's stuff.

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JaKyL25
02/11/12 12:17:00 PM
#113:


Subtle note about Bryan's promo that I haven't seen anyone else pick up on:

"I am a GREAT WRESTLER!"

One of face Daniel Bryan's traits was modesty. He always shot down the notion that he was a great wrestler. On multiple occasions I recall him referring to his opponents as great wrestlers, while he himself is a good wrestler who will one day be a great wrestler.

And now he actually comes out and says he's great.

I appreciate that, Daniel Bryan.

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Wanglicious
02/11/12 12:20:00 PM
#114:


well he's the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION.
he has to be a great wrestler if he's the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION.

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DanielBryan
02/11/12 12:24:00 PM
#115:


From: JaKyL25
Subtle note about Bryan's promo that I haven't seen anyone else pick up on:

"I am a GREAT WRESTLER!"

One of face Daniel Bryan's traits was modesty. He always shot down the notion that he was a great wrestler. On multiple occasions I recall him referring to his opponents as great wrestlers, while he himself is a good wrestler who will one day be a great wrestler.

And now he actually comes out and says he's great.

I appreciate that, Daniel Bryan.


I appreciate that you appreciate that.

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SmartMuffin
02/11/12 12:26:00 PM
#116:


From: Wanglicious | #114
well he's the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION.
he has to be a great wrestler if he's the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION.


^this

While face, he couldn't really call himself great because he wasn't champion. Now that he's champion, he must be great!

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DanielBryan
02/11/12 12:29:00 PM
#117:


See? That kind of callback just flies right over the typical "smart" fan's head.

The same fans who think driving a Prius is "a lame gimmick."

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TimJab
02/11/12 12:35:00 PM
#118:


From: voltch | #100
From these watchthroughs I can conclude this though.

Early Jericho was nawt so hot. Benoit seemed to pickup the "wwf" style faster heck it shows with him appearing in the title scene on PPVs!


That's the Jericho curse. His first match in every company he's ever been in has been bad. In his second book, he goes into detail about how it took so long for him to find his footing in WWF that they almost straight up fired him. IIRC, somebody stood up for him (maybe HBK? I can't remember) and saved his job.

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voltch
02/11/12 12:42:00 PM
#119:


I take it all back, the love triangle angle isn't the worst thing in the company.

Eddie/Chyna melodrama makes TNA's worst angles look good.

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JaKyL25
02/11/12 12:48:00 PM
#120:


Okay yeah I think we can officially say that Orton's on that top tier now. I daresay he outworked Daniel Bryan in that match, and he really "gets it" now, so much more than he did even a year ago. Punk and Christian must have really gotten through to him or something.

I almost pissed my pants over that slingshot setup into the suspended DDT.

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Bidoof
02/11/12 12:52:00 PM
#121:


IIRC, somebody stood up for him (maybe HBK? I can't remember) and saved his job.

Reading the second book right now and I think he said that his two biggest supporters in his first year were Mick Foley and The Rock.

This was still pre-Jesus HBK.
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Rad Link 5
02/11/12 12:52:00 PM
#122:


I seem to recall thinking that Eddie/Chyna melodrama was pretty funny.

Mamacita!

From: JaKyL25 | #120
I daresay he outworked Daniel Bryan in that match


Let's not get carried away.

But he's really really gotten so good now, yeah. He's made me a huge fan.

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Wanglicious
02/11/12 1:00:00 PM
#123:


i'd put orton right now on a similar level as Cody. still not at that level because he's not consistently there but he's damn close. in another month or two though i'll probably agree.

he definitely gets it though. the rollup, the superplex that looked great, and taht slingshot was a first. he should definitely use it more often as it's a good setup.

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JaKyL25
02/11/12 1:05:00 PM
#124:


It's not just the awesome spots that he's integrated into his arsenal though. He understood how to do the chain wrestling sequence with Bryan seamlessly, he sold like a champ for Bryan's offense, and they both made every move count in ways that maximized the importance of the few big spots they did do.

It's very reminiscent structurally of Christian's work, to be honest.

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SmartMuffin
02/11/12 1:07:00 PM
#125:


okay... who kidnapped jakyl and replaced him with someone who tolerates randy orton?

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edwardsdv
02/11/12 1:08:00 PM
#126:


From: JaKyL25 | #120
Okay yeah I think we can officially say that Orton's on that top tier now. I daresay he outworked Daniel Bryan in that match, and he really "gets it" now, so much more than he did even a year ago. Punk and Christian must have really gotten through to him or something.

I almost pissed my pants over that slingshot setup into the suspended DDT.


When Ortons is on hes the best in the business.

But occasionally he is one of the WORST guys whose psychology boils down to "gotta get my spots in."

What drives me crazy is the suspended/ Hangman's DDT. When he sets it up naturally its really cool, but not too long ago against I think it was Jack Swagger he just tossed swagger onto the apron to set up the move. Why bother with it Randy? You can knock people over to set up for the RKO in literally dozens of ways.

Its the same thing with the 619. People get tossed around and end up on that second rope, setting up his move, which would be fine but thats like the ONLY time anyone is ever hanging on the second rope anymore.

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TheRock1525
02/11/12 1:10:00 PM
#127:


You know, people get pissed at Miz for parlaying his reality career into a WWE career (or at least that's the theory), but let's point out something:

He's been with the company going on now 8 years. He's paid his dues in that sense, and if they were just going to capitalize on his reality star status, they certainly wouldn't have waited 6 years to make him a true main eventer.

In that same vain, why doesn't Cena get more s*** for being a body-builder first? No one says "Dwayne was just a guy who couldn't hack it in football."

I guess it bothers me if that's the reason you dislike Miz. Amazing how the IWC just starts hating on anyone that gets pushed nowadays. Miz, Del Rio, even Punk is getting a bunch of detractors.

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TheRock1525
02/11/12 1:11:00 PM
#128:


And "you" isn't referring to people in this topic. I assume most are smarter than that.

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edwardsdv
02/11/12 1:11:00 PM
#129:


Hey Punks detractors have a point-- his character has stalled out since July and thats really disappointing.

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Lopen
02/11/12 1:14:00 PM
#130:


Del Rio's detractor's kinda have a point too in that his mic work is too catchphrase heavy for a heel so his interviews are kinda boring sometimes.

I'm still not sure if anyone actually already knows that's his problem though.

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TheRock1525
02/11/12 1:14:00 PM
#131:


I have no problem with Punk since July. The problem was that he had an absolutely brilliant couple of weeks that there's no way in hell you're going to replicate that on a consistent basis.

Punk is still entertaining, it's just that the WWE is sticking him s*** feuds.

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Wanglicious
02/11/12 1:14:00 PM
#132:


rey does try to set up the 619. this was the first time i've seen orton legit try to setup the ddt. and i agree that he definiteyly has gotten better in his mat work and wrestling. those haven't been problems after christian i think and came as a result of his feud with punk and maybe a bit with cody and dolph. he's got the ring work down so that it flows seemlessly and works out damn well. basically, orton's been paired up with so many great wrestlers that it's rubbing off on him damn well and he's learning how he should be in the ring.


he just needs to fix his spots problem. once he does that, he can join the grouping of cody/del rio/dolph/punk. still say dragon's ahead of them by a bit, but it's not a lot. then again current wwe dragon actually probably fits with them so eh. danielson sure as hell didn't.

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XIII_rocks
02/11/12 1:15:00 PM
#133:


From: Wanglicious | #123
i'd put orton right now on a similar level as Cody. still not at that level because he's not consistently there but he's damn close. in another month or two though i'll probably agree.

he definitely gets it though. the rollup, the superplex that looked great, and taht slingshot was a first. he should definitely use it more often as it's a good setup.


That rollup he does where he's in the corner, jumps up to dodge the incoming opponent and sort of rolls down their body while rolling them up? He's done that a couple of times before and it's frickin awesome.

I said a while ago I really liked Orton's moveset. His powerslam is awesome, dat roll up, and I like the second-rope DDT even if the setup is sometimes a bit contrived.

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edwardsdv
02/11/12 1:17:00 PM
#134:


From: Lopen | #130
Del Rio's detractor's kinda have a point too in that his mic work is too catchphrase heavy for a heel so his interviews are kinda boring sometimes.

I'm still not sure if anyone actually already knows that's his problem though.


I remember it being funny that most people on my facebook group were cool with Del Rio and then he started feuding with Punk and suddenly they all have thought Punks complaints for a long time.

Boring promos being one of the things Punk ripped him on. Which by the way is my biggest pet peeve in wrestling.

Cutting promos on someones promo ability or ability to move merchandise...seems strange. Id rather it be about wrestling skill or smarts, or toughness or hell even scary looking faces. Bringing the meta in the common angle just irks me.

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Lopen
02/11/12 1:17:00 PM
#135:


My problem is Punk's character is kind of a hypocrite right now and no one actually calls him on it-- I presume because they're not intentionally writing him this way-- but yeah. If you look at it from a character consistency perspective your best bet is that his shaking things up approach was just a way to get the title and now that he has it he's content to just not do anything. He's no longer shaking things up and he hasn't been for months. He's in fact become what he supposedly hates, using shaking things up and "pipe bombs" as mere catchphrases.

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Rad Link 5
02/11/12 1:17:00 PM
#136:


From: edwardsdv | #126
I think it was Jack Swagger he just tossed swagger onto the apron to set up the move. Why bother with it Randy? You can knock people over to set up for the RKO in literally dozens of ways.


I actually didn't have a huge problem with this. It was actually preferable to his opponent crawling outside the ropes like an idiot for the X,000,000nth time.

From: TheRock1525 | #127
In that same vain, why doesn't Cena get more s*** for being a body-builder first? No one says "Dwayne was just a guy who couldn't hack it in football."


Because people (rightfully) hate reality television, and (unrightfully) hold that against anyone from those shows who tries to cross over into more legitimate entertainment roles.

Also a month ago I was saying the same thing about how ridiculous it was that people were turning against Punk, but they've really screwed his character so bad right now that I can sort of see why some people would start to complain about him.

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XIII_rocks
02/11/12 1:19:00 PM
#137:


From: TheRock1525 | #131
I have no problem with Punk since July. The problem was that he had an absolutely brilliant couple of weeks that there's no way in hell you're going to replicate that on a consistent basis.

Punk is still entertaining, it's just that the WWE is sticking him s*** feuds.


Yeah this.

I mean the Punk/HHH feud was disgustingly disappointing in hindsight, especially since Punk didn't even win in the end, and then he just sort of floated in the title scene for a few months before winning it.

But I don't think Punk himself ever lost his spark and he never stopped being fantastically entertaining more or less every week - the storylines just weren't there. Especially since the Punk "leaving with the title and coming back" storyline was so amazingly hot at the time.

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JaKyL25
02/11/12 1:22:00 PM
#138:


Orton still does those crappy clotheslines, although Bryan seemingly figured out a way to make them look better by going into the back bump a little earlier and letting Orton's arm's momentum flow over him instead of slapping him down awkwardly mid-run.

At the very least, Orton seems to have abandoned that god-awful Thesz Press that even Kelly Kelly was doing better than he did.

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TheRock1525
02/11/12 1:22:00 PM
#139:


Because if you have Punk constantly "shaking things up" all you're going to be doing is having Punk put down your product over and over and over again.

Eventually, Punk had to have a way to be interesting without simply breaking kayfabe. I think he is, I just think he's been stuck feuding with the likes of Kevin Nash, HHH, and Johnny friggin' Lauranitis. You try to make these guys interesting.

If Jericho/Punk doesn't end up interesting, I'll eat my hat. Hell, Punk did absolutely nothing and it's already more entertaining than the previous feuds he's been stuck in.

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edwardsdv
02/11/12 1:23:00 PM
#140:


From: JaKyL25 | #138
Orton still does those crappy clotheslines, although Bryan seemingly figured out a way to make them look better by going into the back bump a little earlier and letting Orton's arm's momentum flow over him instead of slapping him down awkwardly mid-run.

At the very least, Orton seems to have abandoned that god-awful Thesz Press that even Kelly Kelly was doing better than he did.


Oh God that Thesz Press. it was like "if you dont want to touch my junk you'll fall down now" rather than a real Thesz Press.

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edwardsdv
02/11/12 1:24:00 PM
#141:


From: Lopen | #135
My problem is Punk's character is kind of a hypocrite right now and no one actually calls him on it-- I presume because they're not intentionally writing him this way-- but yeah. If you look at it from a character consistency perspective your best bet is that his shaking things up approach was just a way to get the title and now that he has it he's content to just not do anything. He's no longer shaking things up and he hasn't been for months. He's in fact become what he supposedly hates, using shaking things up and "pipe bombs" as mere catchphrases.


I think thats just called "being a WWE face."

The faces are all huge hypocrites and not really that smart and all basically follow the same formula, down to have a call sign for the finisher.

It'll end up being a heel that calls him on it-- my moneys on the Miz. Or they just never will.

Or yeah Jericho, duh.

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Wanglicious
02/11/12 1:28:00 PM
#142:


he hasn't totally abandoned it. he did it to show in the after-match brawl.

but it looked more like he was starting to adapt it to a double knee. i think he should, that'd fit more in line with the rest of his style and is much more unique.

right now i'd probably put him around Swagga's tier.

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Lopen
02/11/12 1:28:00 PM
#143:


The world champion has a certain amount of stroke so I'm pretty sure speaking in character Punk could be forcing things to happen if he really wanted something to happen. The way you make this storyline with him shaking things up go without burying the product is have Punk actively be "changing" the product. For instance you could have it go that Punk constantly threatens to walk out with the title again and effectively becomes the GM due to the green (to this role anyway) Johnny Ace not wanting to upset him and not really knowing what to do but comply with Punk's demands.

Or maybe crippling Johnny Ace and making "no GM" for a while. That would be shaking things up.

There are a lot of things Punk could do to shake things up without burying the company. I'm not saying he has to "shoot on the company" every week but he needs to do more than just sink into the title defense grind.

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TheRock1525
02/11/12 1:29:00 PM
#144:


I never thought I'd see the day where Orton is getting massive praise from the wrestling crew here on Board 8.

I remember being around for the days when Orton took the belt off Christian 2 days after his first world title win.

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JaKyL25
02/11/12 1:31:00 PM
#145:


I forget what column I read this in, but someone I read recently brought up a great idea that if you wanted to do something interesting with Punk again, you could totally do a program where someone calls him out for manipulating the WWE Universe to get what he wanted and not following through on any of his "campaign promises" as it were.

When you boil it down and simplify it, back in July all he was REALLY in outrage against was that HE wasn't the center of the WWE Universe, and for all his threats about destroying the company by taking the title and running to prove a point, by coming back 8 days later and then turning into just another catchphrase-spouting merch machine with a sense of entitlement about his place at the top of the card, he reveals his true intentions--self-glorification.

He manipulated the anti-Cena fanbase and capitalized on that wave of backlash into stardom.


The problem of course is that you CAN'T do that angle now because they NEED Punk to be a strong babyface at the top of the card.

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Rad Link 5
02/11/12 1:31:00 PM
#146:


From: XIII_rocks | #137
But I don't think Punk himself ever lost his spark and he never stopped being fantastically entertaining more or less every week - the storylines just weren't there. Especially since the Punk "leaving with the title and coming back" storyline was so amazingly hot at the time.


Oh no doubt. Punk himself is not the problem. He's just catching a lot of flak for how he's being booked.

From: edwardsdv | #139
I think thats just called "being a WWE face."

The faces are all huge hypocrites and not really that smart and all basically follow the same formula, down to have a call sign for the finisher.


Orton is pretty non-hypocritical and never really looks dumb.

And even though it's something every WWE face does, it's still annoying when any of them do it. They've got to stop booking faces this way, or else Punk is going to be taking his first steps down Cena Heat boulevard.

From: TheRock1525 | #140
Because if you have Punk constantly "shaking things up" all you're going to be doing is having Punk put down your product over and over and over again.


The problem is that in the end, next to nothing was shaken up, and he's now the face for accepting the status quo and ignoring all his previous ambitions.

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TheRock1525
02/11/12 1:34:00 PM
#147:


Lopen posted...
The world champion has a certain amount of stroke so I'm pretty sure speaking in character Punk could be forcing things to happen if he really wanted something to happen. The way you make this storyline with him shaking things up go without burying the product is have Punk actively be "changing" the product. For instance you could have it go that Punk constantly threatens to walk out with the title again and effectively becomes the GM due to the green (to this role anyway) Johnny Ace not wanting to upset him and not really knowing what to do but comply with Punk's demands.

Or maybe crippling Johnny Ace and making "no GM" for a while. That would be shaking things up.

There are a lot of things Punk could do to shake things up without burying the company. I'm not saying he has to "shoot on the company" every week but he needs to do more than just sink into the title defense grind.

So we should make Punk look like a complete whiny crybaby to make him more interesting? At least when he was about to leave the company, all he did was air his grievances against the company and really didn't care what anyone thought. Him literally holding the company hostage until he gets his way only works once because he was legit pointing out the flaws in the WWE.

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Lopen
02/11/12 1:35:00 PM
#148:


A guy being whiny or a revolutionary is all in presentation.

Unless you're saying WWE is completely flawless right now and that anything Punk could point out as a flaw would come off as whiny.

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SmartMuffin
02/11/12 1:38:00 PM
#149:


When you boil it down and simplify it, back in July all he was REALLY in outrage against was that HE wasn't the center of the WWE Universe, and for all his threats about destroying the company by taking the title and running to prove a point, by coming back 8 days later and then turning into just another catchphrase-spouting merch machine with a sense of entitlement about his place at the top of the card, he reveals his true intentions--self-glorification.

I assume Jericho is going to play this card at some point.

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TheRock1525
02/11/12 1:38:00 PM
#150:


The problem is that in the end, next to nothing was shaken up, and he's now the face for accepting the status quo and ignoring all his previous ambitions.

Except remember that the reason he was so angry with the company was because someone like HIM wasn't afforded the opportunities. As much as people would like to believe he was fighting for the WWE, in truth he was fighting for himself. Fighting for guys who weren't the ass-kissers that guaranteed their spots in the WWE by sucking up to Vince. It's why guys like him and Bryan are finally getting a shot at being the top guys on their respective brands.

I think people forget that Punk was doing it for his own selfish reasons.

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"You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
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