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JaKyL25 01/31/12 9:11:00 PM #351: |
Although overall, about that "Raw title vs. SD title" thing, part of it is that SD almost always wins the Rumble.
There have been 10 now since the brand split, and SD leads Raw 7-3 in Rumble wins. More than doubled! -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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14_and_counting 01/31/12 9:20:00 PM #352: |
From: JaKyL25 | #345 The streak IS more important than any title (this is not even debatable) and yeah, the Rock vs anyone (Cena is irrelevant in this) is bigger than any title too. Because Rock and Austin were bigger than the entire company, not just the Title. On what planet do you inhabit where you think Sheamus beating DB for a Title that has been held for as little as 43 seconds is even on the same level of someone potentially breaking a 20 year old undefeated streak? Yes, the Titles have been buried, but even if they were not, they would still not be at streak level. To change this up, let's use Wade Barrett real quick. Would he get more over winning one of the Titles at WM, or breaking the friggin streak? This is not even up for debate. That is why the streak should close every year (unless Rock or Austin are there) because it is simply bigger than anything else in the company. -- From: Regaro_Ukiera | MWC is god-tier ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:24:00 PM #353: |
You've missed the point entirely MWC. We know exactly why that is. We're saying it's a problem and it is inhibiting the guys who matter NOW from getting over.
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:25:00 PM #354: |
And I would SO MUCH rather see Sheamus vs. DB for the WHC close the show than streak or Rock/Cena bullcrap because it's 2012 and it's time to give the spotlight to the people they are trying to build the future of the company on.
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:25:00 PM #355: |
I mean another big problem is that there are two world titles. I still think there should only be one. That would make the world title match matter a HELL of a lot more.
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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14_and_counting 01/31/12 9:32:00 PM #356: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #355 Yes, but this is a whole other issue (one which after last night, I REALLY think we are getting closer to solving) in that this whole B Title/Show thing has been a decade long failed experiment, and absolutely needs to end. I struggle to think of one time in the last decade that the Brand Split has ever helped at all. MAYBE WM 21 because you were able to get over Cena and Batista at the same time, but no other time. -- From: Regaro_Ukiera | MWC is god-tier ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:34:00 PM #357: |
Is there a way to have a four-way match with Punk/Jericho/Dragon/Sheamus for title unification where Sheamus doesn't get left in the dust?
I don't mean as a worker I just mean in overness. Sheamus could do the Randy Orton WM24 bit where he was like HEY GUYS IM STILL HERE REALLY and when they ignore them spend several weeks RKOing the everloving f*** out of them. And then win the match. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:35:00 PM #358: |
Oh my god have it elimination style where Jericho/Sheamus are the last two again.
I should get paid for this. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:39:00 PM #359: |
Actually no I think you build tension better with 1 fall to a finish.
That would be a hell of a match I think. If you absolutely must make Sheamus lose, make him get like eight near falls on all three of them and have Punk take the fall because he can handle it the best. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 9:39:00 PM #360: |
From: 14_and_counting | #352 Yeah, because WWE made it that way. A 19-0 unbeaten streak at WM is only a novelty UNLESS WWE tells you it's incredible. And then it's also a self-fulfilling prophecy beyond a certain point. Randy Orton at WM21 is really the last honest chance the Streak had of being broken, because it was only 12-0 at the time, and it was a great spot to get a young star over. Had the Streak ended there, it wouldn't be a problem today. Would we be robbed of a couple of the greatest matches in WWE history? Yes, but that's a small sacrifice to make in exchange for actually focusing on full-timers instead of the ever-fading Undertaker. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:41:00 PM #361: |
From: JaKyL25 | #360 You mean Taker/Edge and Taker/Shawn 1 I presume yes? -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 9:43:00 PM #362: |
I mean Taker/Shawn 1 and Taker/Shawn 2. You got something against the 2nd?
Taker/Edge was a fantastic match but the Streak was incidental to that. Taker was still a (relatively) full-timer at that point, that match could have still happened even if the Streak was long-forgotten. The Streak was instrumental in the HBK vs. Taker matches. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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14_and_counting 01/31/12 9:43:00 PM #363: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #357 If you are doing that, you have to do it the Vengeance Way. Of course that gives you 5 Main Events, but what can you do. (It worked wonderfully at Mania XIX, though Rock Austin SHOULD HAVE CLOSED) Punk vs Jericho should start us off, then go Taker vs Trips (It's going behind Rock Cena anyway, might as well break up the 3 World Title matches. The winner here is really irrelevant, they are losing to Dragon either way, he is going to get the 2001 Jericho push where we now try to Mega Heel him. Follow this Sheamus vs Bryan, with the AMDrag going over, with shenanigans, to set up a sorta feud, but over none the less. This follows with Rock vs Cena, as I THINK Title Unification is big enough to supplant them (though this is only if Rock wins, or Face Cena wins, if Heel Cena wins, that goes last, Punk or Sheamus needs to win the Unification match, and Cena squash him next month, on the way to MegaHeel Cena vs Megaface Punk at SuSeries) Finally, Punk/Jericho vs AMDrag for the Undisputed WWE World Heavyweight Championship. -- From: Regaro_Ukiera | MWC is god-tier ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:45:00 PM #364: |
I do actually think Taker/Shawn 2 suffers from being too much alike with the first and I don't give it bonus points just coz it's Shawn's last match.
Taker/Edge was just as good as Taker/Shawn 1 I think. Edge doesn't get enough credit imo. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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edwardsdv 01/31/12 9:45:00 PM #365: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #355 Yeah The last couple years have really KILLED the two shows concept and now the two titles are a relic of that history. The SUPERSHOW thing has made it so that bizarrely, if youre on Raw only and youre in the mdicard you will never get a chance to do anything on the main show. Personally, I hope that the hints of "Teddy is incompetent" with all of the Ace Drama culminates in a formal end to the brand split. There will be some short term casualties but long-term I think it helps the product a lot. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:46:00 PM #366: |
I don't think you can sell Punk vs. AmDrag as your Wrestlemania Main Event just yet. I mean we all know it's good enough to be the best of all time, but they need a few more years as established main eventers before you can turn that into your Austin/Rock I think.
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:47:00 PM #367: |
So what does everyone else think about unifying the titles with either my Fatal Four Way idea or MWC's Vengeance idea at Mania?
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/31/12 9:48:00 PM #368: |
Jakyl continues to think that brand sep actually matters!
Fortunately for everyone but him, WWE is thisclose to scrapping it for good and improving their product greatly as a result. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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edwardsdv 01/31/12 9:50:00 PM #369: |
Man I feel weird for thinking this way, but Punk and AmDrag just don't LOOK tough enough for me to buy them as credibly being the BEST.
Like not everyone needs to be built like Mason Ryan but the two of them arent even that toned. I feel like theyd need to start LOOKING the part of best in the world before everyones really gonna hop on board that. I mean just 2001 Jericho or HBK in his prime levels is all they need but I feel like it would help a lot. Its the same problem I have with Samoa Joe though obviously to a much lesser extent. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 9:50:00 PM #370: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #366 Fun Fact: the only WMs ever with main events featuring ONLY guys who had never main-evented WM before are: 1 (by default) 4 11 (celebrity match) 19 It's really really REALLY rare to do something like that. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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14_and_counting 01/31/12 9:51:00 PM #371: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #366 I actually do agree with this, however, I definitely think you can sell those two as your ME if it is World Title vs World Title Unification Match. -- From: Regaro_Ukiera | MWC is god-tier ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 9:51:00 PM #372: |
From: SmartMuffin | #368 You don't remember my long spiel around Summerslam time about how Triple H taking over should have led to the end of the Brand Split at Night of Champions? I do think it mattered, but right now the roster is too thin. Unify the brands. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/31/12 9:52:00 PM #373: |
Also, I think Jak is selling Taker/Tista a little short. Match wasn't amazing, but it was okay given two big guys, and the feud was pretty excellent. It really felt like a main event level match even though it was the SD title.
-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/31/12 9:54:00 PM #374: |
too THIN?
Hell, I think they have an embarrassment of riches at this point. Maybe it's a little heavy at the VERY top, but come on, look at what we're looking at so far. Punk/Jericho Sheamus/Somebody Rock/Cena Taker/HHH MITB Divas Orton/Wade There's seven matches right there without even having to think about it. Then you've got upper-midcard guys with main event potential sitting out like Rey and Christian and ADR. What about Kane and Big Show? What about Mark Henry (assuming DB is keeping it to face Sheamus)? What about the Miz (MITB seems like a demotion for him)? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 9:54:00 PM #375: |
From: SmartMuffin | #373 It falls into that Taker/Edge category in that it still could have happened even if the Streak was dead. It's not like had the Streak ended in 2005 that Taker would have retired immediately. Now, I do think he would be retired NOW if he wasn't still clinging to it. But he still had a few years left in him back then. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:56:00 PM #376: |
From: 14_and_counting | #371 You may be right. ALSO if they were to actually try and do this it would be good enough to cement those two to legendary status. Can you imagine the match those two would pull out with those ramifications and everything. It would be fantastic. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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edwardsdv 01/31/12 9:57:00 PM #377: |
I feel like the best way to do it, is to actually hold up both titles at the end of the brance split and introduce a completely brand new looking belt, but have it still be the WWE title and hold a small tournament with the most deserving guys, culminating in a Vengeance-style event if need be.
-- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 9:57:00 PM #378: |
See part of why Taker/Edge was so good was because the title mattered just as much as the streak.
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 10:00:00 PM #379: |
From: SmartMuffin | #374 The roster is too thin at the top. Taker, Triple H, Rock, and Jericho are special attractions/short-termers. Right now WWE is at a point where it DESPERATELY needs to make new stars, and having a brand sep only works to that effect if you have two rosters worth of established main-eventers to help get new guys over. Right now there's Orton and Cena. That's it as far as the established guys go. By keeping the brands split, with such a thin main-event group, you run into the problem of trying to somehow get people over as main-eventers without them ever having beaten main eventers, by hook or by crook even, to get where they are. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/31/12 10:00:00 PM #380: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #378 and because Edge is just amazing. Anyway, my point is that the whole "smackdown is the b-title" thing CAN be overcome if you just stop booking it like it's the B-title. Tista/Taker was a relevant feud because those were two unquestioned main event stars. I absolutely love Sheamus and DB. I really do. Hell, I love Edge and ADR. I loved Edge and Jericho. But they were clearly inferior in terms of push and main-event relevance than the RAW matches on each of their respective WMs. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 10:01:00 PM #381: |
I think we all agree about this, we've just got semantic differences about why we agree lol
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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14_and_counting 01/31/12 10:02:00 PM #382: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #378 But only because Edge all ready had it. If not it would have been. I'm going to break your streak Deadman, oh and take that little Gold belt you have too for the hell of it. -- From: Regaro_Ukiera | MWC is god-tier ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/31/12 10:03:00 PM #383: |
Remember though, I'm someone who has always hated brand sep and thinks it's a terrible idea regardless of the roster.
They have PLENTY of guys who could main event. Now you're right that as of this exact moment, it's hard to see them as legitimate threats to Orton or Cena, but you can change that pretty quick by letting them beat Orton and Cena. The fact that they choose not to allow that is their own damn problem and has nothing to do with brand sep and cannot be taken to mean the roster is "too thin." If it's thin at the elite level, it's because they've made it that way on purpose. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 10:03:00 PM #384: |
No, because Edge literally cared more about the title than breaking the streak. That's what drove Edge more than anything throughout his whole run, was how much he cared about the belt.
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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edwardsdv 01/31/12 10:05:00 PM #385: |
Lets face it this is why Batista and Edge leaving hurt really badly and why losing Kennedy really did hurt the WWE long-term'
Throw Rey and Christian getting injured and thats just a bad recipe. People cant get over on their own, at least not in a way that matters. Kofi and Ziggler can fight a million times but because Kofis not established Ziggler can be as dominating as he wants and it wont matter. They needed to get more out of Batista before he left and I cant stress enough that Del Rio needed to go over clean and big on Edge if he was gonna retire the next night. Del Rio could've used the rub in a big way and now Edge is gone. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TheRock1525 01/31/12 10:06:00 PM #386: |
I think they should have a four way 30 minute iron man match between Jericho, Sheamus, Bryan, and Punk. Punk and Bryan start out the champions, and if you pin one of them you get their respective title, but the match continues and someone can pin you for the title. Theoretically, someone could unify the titles at the end of the match.
It'd be f***ing nuts. -- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 10:07:00 PM #387: |
From: TheRock1525 | #386 You can't do something convoluted like that for your Mania main event though. Maybe for the next PPV. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TheRock1525 01/31/12 10:08:00 PM #388: |
You assume Rock/Cena isn't the main event!
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/31/12 10:08:00 PM #389: |
30 man championship scramble to unify the titles.
Ends in Santino rolling-up Orton at the last minute to win. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 10:08:00 PM #390: |
From: SmartMuffin | #383 Well part of the issue here is that it takes a lot more than beating one or two guys. Miz beat Orton AND Cena during his reign, shadily yes, but still he BEAT them, and it didn't help him much. Take CM Punk for example. He beat John Cena. Twice. That only STARTED his push though. Even now it's still tenuous. He needs to keep going over people like Jericho to really cement himself in that tier for good. Yes, it is their fault, entirely, but the problem is that now they're stuck with it and how to fix it is not easy. They're on the right track with Punk, and eventually he can be used to help get more guys over along with Cena and Orton, and then those new guys can spread the main event bug around, and so on. It's viral in a way. Oh, and IT WOULD HAVE HELPED IF TRIPLE H DIDN'T FEEL THE NEED TO BEAT PUNK IN A MEANINGLESS PPV MATCH WHEN HE HAD ALL THE MOMENTUM IN THE WORLD. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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14_and_counting 01/31/12 10:09:00 PM #391: |
From: TheRock1525 | #386 There is one glaring problem with that. Theoretically you could go into the match as one of the Champions, actually WIN the match, and still not leave with even one of the Titles. -- From: Regaro_Ukiera | MWC is god-tier ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TheRock1525 01/31/12 10:10:00 PM #392: |
There is one glaring problem with that. Theoretically you could go into the match as one of the Champions, actually WIN the match, and still not leave with even one of the Titles.
You win the match by having a title at the end of it. It's not like a traditional iron man where you count the total pin falls. -- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 10:10:00 PM #393: |
You don't need Mania rubs to get people over. You need PPV victories against guys like Orton and Cena. Did Dolph go over Orton on PPV at all during their feud?
ADR's problem was WAY TOO FAST anyway. Their problem is that they don't give anyone the slowpush anymore. Year One: Solid Undercard matches, displaying talent, getting decently over. Year Two: Mid-card and tag team titles, having good solid feuds with good endings Year Three: This is where you can have your Royal Rumble victory. What they've been doing Year One: Show impressive talent initially, be given MITB or Royal Rumble win and then realize how lacking in overness you are. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 10:11:00 PM #394: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #393 They had a feud? -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 01/31/12 10:12:00 PM #395: |
I thought Orton and Dolph had a feud last year wtf.
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
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14_and_counting 01/31/12 10:12:00 PM #396: |
From: TheRock1525 | #392 Whose music do you play at the end of it if a Unification doesn't happen? -- From: Regaro_Ukiera | MWC is god-tier ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TheRock1525 01/31/12 10:12:00 PM #397: |
WWE's version of pushing someone is quite hilarious:
Main Event Wrestlemania and retain. Lose a few months later at a PPV to Alex Riley. GEE I WONDER WHY THEY CAN'T BUILD STARS. -- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TheRock1525 01/31/12 10:12:00 PM #398: |
Whose music do you play at the end of it if a Unification doesn't happen?
Sheamus. -- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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JaKyL25 01/31/12 10:13:00 PM #399: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #395 Nope, Orton's 2011 feuds went Miz-->Punk-->Christian-->Henry-->Cody-->Wade Ziggler popped up a few times as a random TV match but they never feuded. -- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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14_and_counting 01/31/12 10:15:00 PM #400: |
From: JaKyL25 | #399 I like to think Ziggler is in a perpetual feud with the entire roster because of how amazing he is and others hate him for it. -- From: Regaro_Ukiera | MWC is god-tier ... Copied to Clipboard!
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