From: GenesisTwilight | #199 And Kan, stop trying to build everyone's class for them. Let people do what they want. You keep talking about stuff at paragon and epic tiers, but there's no guarantee we'll ever even get that far.
If you don't like it Gen, put me on ignore. It's always a good idea to build for the future, even if the future is just the next two encounters. Being someone who is well aware of how 4th Ed. character optimization works, I feel obligated to help everybody else out. I'm going to melt faces both in combat and in roleplay because I'm great like that. So, instead of hogging the spotlight, why not share it with everybody else? I'd prefer to see everybody do well instead of one-shotting that full-HP standard monster for the Nth time and watching as everybody else goes ":(" when their attacks miss, or they blow everything they've got on a nova and deal something like 30 damage.
From: KanzarisKelshen | #200 The opposite, really. Few things feel as fun as setting off a cascade of awesomeness where everybody does something impressive. Being awesome? Yeah, that's nice. Being awesome and letting *everybody else* be awesome? That's godlike.
It's boring when you do it every encounter.
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"It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy...let's go exploring!" - Calvin http://img.imgcake.com/calvinfinalpngpy.png
Considering Anagram explicitly said he doesn't want min/maxing, how about you try making a character that uh...doesn't do that? Sounds like that'd be more of a challenge for you than the alternative, anyways.
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"It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy...let's go exploring!" - Calvin http://img.imgcake.com/calvinfinalpngpy.png
I'd prefer to see everybody do well instead of one-shotting that full-HP standard monster for the Nth time and watching as everybody else goes ":(" when their attacks miss, or they blow everything they've got on a nova and deal something like 30 damage.
How about the option where we all do well without pigeonholing ourselves into identical roles? I'd enjoy myself more if we just had a standard party. I mean, yes, teamwork is good, but you can have too much of a good thing, you know. Things are more fun if teamwork is something that you have to work towards.
I mean, this is kind of similar to playing a team game in a TCG and creating synergy by having everyone run the same deck. It's very effective, but dull.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
From: GenesisTwilight | #205 We could always just kick out Kan and replace him with Shados since he seems insistent on backseat gaming everyone else.
No, that would be excessive... I don't mind him suggesting improvements myself, I just disagree with how he's doing it.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Just build however you want to build. If you want to take Kanz's advice, take it. If not, don't. I trust Kanz is wise enough to not build a character who will be so much more powerful than everyone else that it wouldn't be fun.
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Also, do we get backgrounds and character themes? IE the features that are in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting book and Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook sources?
Also, a few stipulations on magic items: when choosing the ones you start with, you can choose COMMON magic items of the level plus 2 instead of an uncommon item. Meaning that when you choose your level 4 item, you could instead get a level 6 common item in its place. Also, when spending money, you generally can only buy common magic items, but I guess that's for the DM to decide.
GenesisTwilight posted... Also, do we get backgrounds and character themes? IE the features that are in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting book and Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook sources?
I'd prefer not, sorry.
I'm on my phone, so I can't quote multiple posts, but there will be a way to get uncommon magical items, don't worry about that.
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Oh wow, this is starting to look like a CharOp thread.
Anyway the way I try to do it is to build in a way where your character should be relatively successful at their line of work, but building around your own fluff, at the same time. It's fair to assume that your character should be good at his job without reaching min/max territory. A safe base 16 into your primary score, bumped +2 with a racial will give you 18 which is generally pretty good without utterly wrecking the rest of your stats.
On the flip side, I sometimes like to deliberately takes my low stat in something that would otherwise be considered a tertiary stat for the character. For instance, my fighter with a wisdom of 8. Sure, there are feats and other features down the road that use wisdom, but my character was taken at an early age before he learned the ways of the world and isolated, taught his art and subsequently left knowing little beyond his craft and some basic education once he finally escaped his captors. This character - this PERSON would have a wisdom score of 8.
Complete character optimization is not something that is absolutely necessary in this game - unless the DM is throwing nothing but the hardest encounters on your level's scaling range (rule of thumb is 3 below = easy, all the way up to 3 above = hard), you will almost always win a 'fair fight' as a party in this game with no casualties. That said it doesn't hurt nor does it make you a min/maxer to build a relatively effective build, you should be expected to be good at your work, your character is a hero, an exceptional person above the norm (we ARE four levels above a commoner, yeah?)
Edit: ...yeah, I just woke up so mind my grammatical errors, today is not a good day for formulating coherent thoughts lol
-- Accel ACE Totally still relevant, totally not just a lurker. Totally.
How does one know whether the Player's Handbook magic items are common or whatever?
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
The common/uncommon crap is relatively recent, it probably wouldn't be in the older books. I want to say it started in Adventurer's Vault 2? But I could be wrong, I've never really acknowledged or used it.
-- Accel ACE Totally still relevant, totally not just a lurker. Totally.
I continue to accumulate an assortment of handbooks I will never use.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
I'll stick with what I've got, Kanz. I stopped playin' SR and by extension Ranked on LoL because of the meta and insistence on sticking to it. Thanks, though. >_>'
Need to work out his/her (May end up runnin' a female, as bad an idea as that is, again, dependin' on how many guys are here.) backstory now, in any case.
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Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like banana.
IhatethisCPU posted... I'll stick with what I've got, Kanz. I stopped playin' SR and by extension Ranked on LoL because of the meta and insistence on sticking to it. Thanks, though. >_>'
Need to work out his/her (May end up runnin' a female, as bad an idea as that is, again, dependin' on how many guys are here.) backstory now, in any case.
I was debating on playing as female myself but I tend to find it awkward unless I'm in a joke group or a group of IRL friends, myself.
-- Accel ACE Totally still relevant, totally not just a lurker. Totally.
From: GenesisTwilight | #209 Also, a few stipulations on magic items: when choosing the ones you start with, you can choose COMMON magic items of the level plus 2 instead of an uncommon item. Meaning that when you choose your level 4 item, you could instead get a level 6 common item in its place. Also, when spending money, you generally can only buy common magic items, but I guess that's for the DM to decide.
Since when are we playing with rarity rules? They're pretty much THE dumbest rule in the whole edition, and this includes stuff that was errata'd because it was nonfunctional.
From: CalvinbalI | #202 It's boring when you do it every encounter.
On the contrary, because you are NOT doing the same thing encounter in and encounter out. That's the beauty of team op!
From: CalvinbalI | #203 Considering Anagram explicitly said he doesn't want min/maxing, how about you try making a character that uh...doesn't do that? Sounds like that'd be more of a challenge for you than the alternative, anyways.
Min/Maxing =/= broken opping. Not to mention, playing down to avoid outshining others is dumb. Making everybody else shine by themselves is much more sensible.
From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #204 I'd prefer to see everybody do well instead of one-shotting that full-HP standard monster for the Nth time and watching as everybody else goes ":(" when their attacks miss, or they blow everything they've got on a nova and deal something like 30 damage.
How about the option where we all do well without pigeonholing ourselves into identical roles? I'd enjoy myself more if we just had a standard party. I mean, yes, teamwork is good, but you can have too much of a good thing, you know. Things are more fun if teamwork is something that you have to work towards.
I mean, this is kind of similar to playing a team game in a TCG and creating synergy by having everyone run the same deck. It's very effective, but dull.
See Scep, there aren't any identical roles. I mean, unless suddenly focus firing is the same as doing splash damage, or marking is the same as healing. There's an analogy here with building a house, but I'm a bit lazy and don't feel like making it. Let's instead say that what I'm suggesting is kind of like playing in a band: we all play the same tune, even if we carry different melodies.
From: GenesisTwilight | #205 We could always just kick out Kan and replace him with Shados since he seems insistent on backseat gaming everyone else.
Or you could just talk things like an adult instead of being passive-aggressive, Gen. Believe it or not, I'm not opposed to letting people do their thing, so long as they say as much!
From: Accel ACE | #211Snip
Accel pretty much summed it up, with the caveat that minmaxing is actually not a bad thing at all, that's munchkining. When I make suggestions, it's because watching people be reduced to cheerleading duties is horrible. Pain is lessened when shared, but joy is magnified, really. It's why I make sure to give everybody suggestions. If you don't like it, the way to work around it is NOT to be passive aggressive about it. Just tell me that you have a gameplan and that'll be that.
From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #212 How does one know whether the Player's Handbook magic items are common or whatever?
From: GenesisTwilight | #213 Ok, weird, the player's handbook doesn't seem to list common/uncommon. The items in Adventurer's Vault and AV2 should be listed as such though.
From: Accel ACE | #214 The common/uncommon crap is relatively recent, it probably wouldn't be in the older books. I want to say it started in Adventurer's Vault 2? But I could be wrong, I've never really acknowledged or used it.
Started with the Heroes of the Fallen Lands/Forgotten Kingdoms books and continued with Neverwinter Campaign Setting, Mordenkainen's Emporium, and the rest. It's a set of really dumb, really ****ty rules that we should ignore because they put you at the mercy of the GM in a stupid and ill-conceived attempt at making everybody as mediocre as Vampires and Bladesingers, as well as solidifying the (nonexistent) superiority of Essentials classes. Lots fo Essentials stuff is good, but the item rules are completely moronic. Don't pay attention to them and just pick up your Angurvadals and Frostbrands as usual IMO.
Drow is too restrictive as background goes. Let's play a far more interesting race that, fortunately, can fit the same stat boosts.
Revenant Storm Sorcerer, aw yeah!
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Sceptilesolarbeam posted... Oh god, this is great.
Drow is too restrictive as background goes. Let's play a far more interesting race that, fortunately, can fit the same stat boosts.
Revenant Storm Sorcerer, aw yeah!
Too restrictive? I said no backgrounds, so it shouldn't matter. Unless you mean like your literal character background, in which case it shouldn't matter, you can come from whatever kind of island you like.
Also, keep in mind that you're starting at level 5, so your character should already have like an adventure or two under his or her belt; your preexisting experience is the reason you've been selected for the adventure in this campaign in the first place.
And CPU, weren't you playing a minotaur? You're thinking of a female minotaur warlord?
-- Not changing this sig until I decide to change this sig. Started: July 6, 2005
From: Anagram | #221 Sceptilesolarbeam posted... Oh god, this is great.
Drow is too restrictive as background goes. Let's play a far more interesting race that, fortunately, can fit the same stat boosts.
Revenant Storm Sorcerer, aw yeah!
Too restrictive? I said no backgrounds, so it shouldn't matter. Unless you mean like your literal character background, in which case it shouldn't matter, you can come from whatever kind of island you like.
Also, keep in mind that you're starting at level 5, so your character should already have like an adventure or two under his or her belt; your preexisting experience is the reason you've been selected for the adventure in this campaign in the first place.
And CPU, weren't you playing a minotaur? You're thinking of a female minotaur warlord?
The only minotaur I saw was Gen thinking about playing a Minotaur Seeker. CPU's been toying with a Dragonborn since forever, I think.
Too restrictive? I said no backgrounds, so it shouldn't matter. Unless you mean like your literal character background, in which case it shouldn't matter, you can come from whatever kind of island you like.
Well, I mean, drow aren't really drow if they aren't part of a backstabby evil society ruled by an evil god, are they? Whenever you're playing a drow you have to always avoid the Drizzt archetype, I guess. Or that's kind of how I feel about it.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #223 Too restrictive? I said no backgrounds, so it shouldn't matter. Unless you mean like your literal character background, in which case it shouldn't matter, you can come from whatever kind of island you like.
Well, I mean, drow aren't really drow if they aren't part of a backstabby evil society ruled by an evil god, are they? Whenever you're playing a drow you have to always avoid the Drizzt archetype, I guess. Or that's kind of how I feel about it.
Or you can live the dream and play it. The key to avoiding the archetype is not giving a single **** about it. If you want to play a good drow...play a good drow. You're a good enough player to make your character distinctive, after all!
Sceptilesolarbeam posted... Too restrictive? I said no backgrounds, so it shouldn't matter. Unless you mean like your literal character background, in which case it shouldn't matter, you can come from whatever kind of island you like.
Well, I mean, drow aren't really drow if they aren't part of a backstabby evil society ruled by an evil god, are they? Whenever you're playing a drow you have to always avoid the Drizzt archetype, I guess. Or that's kind of how I feel about it.
That's no problem. You can just say you're from an island that's got a hollow underground ruled by crazy matriarchal dominatrix queens worshipping a spider goddess. You can write almost any kind of island into existence that you need for your background.
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I was considering Minotaur, yeah. Then all of the character generators I looked at don't have anything past Player Handbook 1 for PC races. And also decided it's probably best if I didn't just genderbend Joey Hooves from the SA LP D&D thread. >_>'
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Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like banana.
IhatethisCPU posted... I was considering Minotaur, yeah. Then all of the character generators I looked at don't have anything past Player Handbook 1 for PC races. And also decided it's probably best if I didn't just genderbend Joey Hooves from the SA LP D&D thread. >_>'
Ah. Yeah, I can't find the official full character generator through the absolutely legal means I always employ for these purposes, only the demo, which only allows up to level 3, but it does allow races beyond PBH1. I don't know if it includes minotaur, though.
-- Not changing this sig until I decide to change this sig. Started: July 6, 2005
Still, I think a Revenant could be more interesting. I never had any preference between drow and whatever as long as it's DEX and CHA boosting.
Also, strangely enough, I think I may go with a knife user instead after all. I have a devious, diabolic, awesome plan.
Lastly, I am sad because the pathguy domain expired. No more oniine character builder for me.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #228 Still, I think a Revenant could be more interesting. I never had any preference between drow and whatever as long as it's DEX and CHA boosting.
Also, strangely enough, I think I may go with a knife user instead after all. I have a devious, diabolic, awesome plan.
Lastly, I am sad because the pathguy domain expired. No more oniine character builder for me.
Maybe I spend too much time with the charop team, but when you mentioned Revenants I honestly thought you were mocking what I had last said Scep. They're soooooooooooooooooo overused mechanically that I thought you were cracking a joke about them. :P
I got bored reading midway, but I saw that there was a problem with not having a map for online D&D
A google spreadsheet crossed over with whatever you're doing the RP on works pretty well for this I find if you guys don't want to use a more fancy solution
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I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
From: KanzarisKelshen | #229 Maybe I spend too much time with the charop team, but when you mentioned Revenants I honestly thought you were mocking what I had last said Scep. They're soooooooooooooooooo overused mechanically that I thought you were cracking a joke about them. :P
Bah! I'm not even using all the invincibility hax I found online. Mechanically speaking drow are just better for this build.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
If you tried to use it I'd be obligated to request a newspaper smack. Properly built revenants are indeed totally invincible, and like the opposite of what I'd like to see out of any group. :P
4th really kind of does need a map, even if we wind up just using AIM and haivng someone make a numbered/lettered grid that we update each turn in paint.
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Dammit, I can't decide. Revenant boosts both of my key stats. That's good. But my build is really feat-heavy, and I'd like to have 3 at-wills... If I wanted to fix that, I could take Human, but it'd jeopardize my stats a bit... Any thoughts?
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Sceptilesolarbeam posted... Dammit, I can't decide. Revenant boosts both of my key stats. That's good. But my build is really feat-heavy, and I'd like to have 3 at-wills... If I wanted to fix that, I could take Human, but it'd jeopardize my stats a bit... Any thoughts?
Depends, what was your class again?
-- Accel ACE Totally still relevant, totally not just a lurker. Totally.
Sorcerer. But that won't do you any good to know, I don't think.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
From: GenesisTwilight | #239 Actually, I think I'm gonna go with a half-elf Druid. It's between that and the minotaur now.
Speaking of Primals, I'm giving Defenders/Avenger hybrids a look and god DAMN does a Warden|Avenger have action bloat. Two minor action attacks, a punishment mechanic, an immediate interrupt attack, two different MBAs, a multiattack, a polymorph, and a vanilla daily power. This crap has so many choices it's kind of frightening. O_O
Blech, don't know what to go with. On one hand, this combo is rock-solid and legimitately makes the Avenger into a full-blown Striker AND Defender. On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to go add Primal flavor to this character just to fix the overwhelming terribleness of Avenger Encounter 1 powers...any suggestions guys?
From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #237 Dammit, I can't decide. Revenant boosts both of my key stats. That's good. But my build is really feat-heavy, and I'd like to have 3 at-wills... If I wanted to fix that, I could take Human, but it'd jeopardize my stats a bit... Any thoughts?
This comes down to one thing: how attached to your utility slots are you?
This comes down to one thing: how attached to your utility slots are you?
What do you mean?
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
From: Accel ACE | #236 4th really kind of does need a map, even if we wind up just using AIM and haivng someone make a numbered/lettered grid that we update each turn in paint.
Yeah that's kinda what making a google spreadsheet does for you. It gives you a grid, and you can fill in the grid squares with letters for characters, and colors for terrain. And everyone can edit it so it's pretty easy for people to move themselves.
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I tried to have a fierce rivalry with SuperNiceDog, but he made me look worse than a GameFAQs Contest!
From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #242 This comes down to one thing: how attached to your utility slots are you? What do you mean?
If you don't mind burning your utility slots for defense you can fly several encounters a day, leaving you free to engage in artillery duels while ignoring the melee that would tear your pitiful AC to shreds in normal situations. This costs you your slots, but it DOES work as a means to bypass the need for protection.
Try to come up with some kind of island to be from. Like I said, any level of magic and technology (up to like the Renaissance) is fine, as is any kind of culture. If not, I could just come up with some place for you to be from.
It probably won't come up, but it's good to have it in the backstory.
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From: KanzarisKelshen | #244 If you don't mind burning your utility slots for defense you can fly several encounters a day, leaving you free to engage in artillery duels while ignoring the melee that would tear your pitiful AC to shreds in normal situations. This costs you your slots, but it DOES work as a means to bypass the need for protection.
I'm not super worried about my defenses; it's just whether I want max CHA and DEX or whether I want to have all three good at-wills and be one step closer to getting my best feat combination.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
From: KanzarisKelshen | #247 Which three good at-wills? I count like five, and at least one of them you can't use.
Storm Walk, Lightning Strike, and Ensorcelled Blade. Preferably I'd like all three. I'd drop Storm Walk if I had to, but I like the idea of being able to switch between thunder and lightning on a whim.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Sceptilesolarbeam posted... From: KanzarisKelshen | #247 Which three good at-wills? I count like five, and at least one of them you can't use. Storm Walk, Lightning Strike, and Ensorcelled Blade. Preferably I'd like all three. I'd drop Storm Walk if I had to, but I like the idea of being able to switch between thunder and lightning on a whim.
In my honest opinion, ensorcelled blade isn't even really worth it if you're going to play a class that attacks from mid-range. Work with a defender or somebody that can keep things off of you well enough and you shouldn't have to be making opportunity attacks.
-- Accel ACE Totally still relevant, totally not just a lurker. Totally.
From: Accel ACE | #249 Sceptilesolarbeam posted... From: KanzarisKelshen | #247 Which three good at-wills? I count like five, and at least one of them you can't use. Storm Walk, Lightning Strike, and Ensorcelled Blade. Preferably I'd like all three. I'd drop Storm Walk if I had to, but I like the idea of being able to switch between thunder and lightning on a whim.
In my honest opinion, ensorcelled blade isn't even really worth it if you're going to play a class that attacks from mid-range. Work with a defender or somebody that can keep things off of you well enough and you shouldn't have to be making opportunity attacks.
OAs? Pfffft. It's all about Vengeance is Mine, Hail of Steel, and the rest. Ensorcelled Blade is there for CPU to have as many characters to grant MBAs to as humanly possible. If Ensorcelled Blade is one of Scep's at-wills, it means we can FLATTEN an encounter with Lamb to the Slaughter if we all charge.