Bryan Fury has taunted Lute into giving him her best shot. Fury will stand still, wide open, and the two will be 30 meters away from each other on neutral terrain. Lute will have 40 seconds to kill Fury. Will she succeed?
Guidelines
- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.
Rules for Voting
- Bold your votes (using <b>and </b>).
- Provide a justification for why you think the selected team would win. Fanboy logic, ignoring character assumptions or rules, and vague or unintelligible justifications are all grounds for having your vote disqualified.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end when one side reaches 7 votes, or in 6 hours, whichever comes first.
Bryan Fury is as he appears in Tekken 6. He has access to all his moves and techniques save for any gameplay mechanics. Regarding weapons, he has all those that he wields in the game, including the gatling gun and rocket launcher from his ending. And yes, he's every bit as durable as he canonically is.
Lute is a level 20 mage from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones. She is armed with a Fimbulvetr tome.
In the Tekken 3 ending, he completely no-sells a barrage of machine gun fire and a tank shell at point-blank range.
Also, in the Tekken 6 ending, he no-sells a helicopter crashing into him in a massive explosion.
Lute's an unpromoted mage, which means that her damage output isn't that great even by Fire Emblem standards. I don't see her having the raw damage output needed to get past Fury's natural defense in the brief time allotted.
-- another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
And I think she's got a better chance that you might think at first glance by the way. I don't see Bryan coping all that well with magic-- it cuts through heavily armored units pretty easily, and fimbulvetr is a pretty strong spell-- and Lute's got a pretty good int stat even unpromoted.
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I’m sure there’s gonna be some underhype for Lute tossed around almost instantly, but really, most of it seems pretty unwarranted. While Fury’s shown some durability to physical means, he’s absolutely never come up against magic and has no notable defense against it.
It’s more or less established by all RPG’s (including Fire Emblem series) that hitting something with magic is drastically different than hitting them with a physical attack, and relies on something entirely different than physical defense, usually called magic defense or resistance. It’s almost commonplace for brute force and durability to go hand in hand with no familiarity with magic and abysmal defense against it (see: Dekar in Lufia 2).
Offensive magic is straight up what Lute does. In her game, she’s generally one of the most offensive mage characters around, and the way this fight is set up means she doesn’t have to worry about the usual weakness of being a glass cannon. Fury’s not even attempting to dodge, and just taking this assault for 40 full seconds of what Lute can dish out with no worry of having to dodge, having to adjust aim for her target dodging, or worry about any other people either.
Probably most impressive is the kind of stuff Lute’s gone up against. These things actually are familiar with magic, some even using it, but she’s taken down tons of monsters and enemies that are pretty well beyond human. Most notably, she helps in taking down an enemy that dwarfs Bryan Fury while surviving it and it’s army, that being the Demon King Fomortiis:
For reference, that thing is so large, a full grown person is maybe tall enough to reach from its chin to its eyes.
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
Most notably, she helps in taking down an enemy that dwarfs Bryan Fury while surviving it and it’s army, that being the Demon King Fomortiis:
Eh, I think you're overhyping that feat, for a couple of reasons: It's a large group that takes him down (perhaps a dozen fighters?) and they're all likely to be high-level, promoted units. I think you also have better tomes than Fimbulvetr by that point. Unpromoted Lute isn't nearly on that level.
-- another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
Fimbvulvetr is one of the top tomes in the game. You might get something a little better, but not by much.
Fimbulvetr is pretty good. But I thought by the final battle you have a decent amount of S-rank weapons for your top guys (who are the ones most likely to be engaging the boss anyway).
-- another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
Promoted or unpromoted makes no difference for Lute by plot. Minus tangible differences like if she were promoted, they might have given her more spells in her writeup or a horse, she's the same exact thing by plot.
Even then, Demon King Fomortiis is quite a lot more familiar with and resistant to magic, to even make a difference while surviving both Fomortiis's attacks and those of the entire army of inhuman monsters would suggest she's pretty powerful with magic. Enough to take out an immobile target in 40 seconds that's not remotely magic resistant.
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
You're likely to have S-Ranks for some of your guys, sure - but there's only one Excalibur tome in the game. So unless you're only using one anima magic unit (mileage may vary, but I had two or three), then at least one will have Fimbulvetr, and it's a perfectly good stand-in.
-- I'm too tired to drive anywhere, anyway, right now, do you care if I praise Black Turtle? Call me numbers.
Excalibur only has 5 more might than fimbulvetr. It's a significant drop off, but they're both capable of doing good damage, and it's about on par with the S ranks from other categories, actually.
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Promoted or unpromoted makes no difference for Lute by plot. Minus tangible differences like if she were promoted, they might have given her more spells in her writeup or a horse, she's the same exact thing by plot.
Particularly in Lute's case, I see it as representative of plot growth. When the party first meets her, she's a bright girl with a talent for magic, but she has no combat experience. I'd consider that level 1 Lute (or whatever level she is when you first get her). At the other end of the spectrum is endgame Lute, who has grown considerably in skill and experience. This Lute is midway between the two -- she has some combat experience but she still has a lot to learn compared to the Lute who helps to fight the Demon King.
Also, promotion isn't merely gameplay; it's tied to plot, since IIRC the promotion of the lords occurs in connection with certain plot events.
-- another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
Besides, even if it isn't the strongest anima tome, it's capable of hurting Formotiis, who himself is a magical demon sealed in a magical stone for forever. I'd say it's likely he'd fare against it a lot better than Fury.
Also, I feel like I asked this last time, but I forgot: If -gunfire- doesn't bother fury, why does he not win every Tekken tournament?
-- I'm too tired to drive anywhere, anyway, right now, do you care if I praise Black Turtle? Call me numbers.
Gleipnir would be good here though since the weight doesn't matter since the target is immobile.
Which actually is unpromoted Lute's biggest weakness anyway. High level tomes are heavy and her con is bad as a mage and her speed wouldn't be too great at that point so she's probably getting speed blitz'd if she's using fimbulvetr. Her int is surely going to be 20, though, and promoted it's only going to hit 30.
So yeah I think Lute has a good chance here. Damage against immobile targets she's quite good for! And if you believe in crits she's likely to be able to crit Fury a lot of times cause her luck is really good.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Drakeryn posted... Also, promotion isn't merely gameplay; it's tied to plot, since IIRC the promotion of the lords occurs in connection with certain plot events.
In Sacred Stones, actually, you can deny the lords from ever promoting.
That said, I agree there's a tangible difference between level 20 mage and level 20 sage Lute. I just don't know if it's a big enough difference to say she couldn't kill Fury.
-- I'm too tired to drive anywhere, anyway, right now, do you care if I praise Black Turtle? Call me numbers.
For regular characters, promotion means more or less nothing. It doesn't influence them by plot and isn't caused by it, there's no bearing on why they're stronger when anyone else might be doing way more work and actually be more apt to improve or be stronger.
Even lords promote arbitrarily at times. Sometimes it can be a bit by plot, but other times a plot related promotion will be stuff such as...
Volke promotes by pulling a slight cloth over the lower half of his face to tell you "hey, I'm an assassin and always have been, not a thief" even though any gained efficiency fighting would help him a lot more to you know, not die on the job like he possibly could.
Ike promotes by being told by some random royalty that hey, you're kinda officially sorta recognized by us for what you are after we ordered you to do things anyway.
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
Anyway, Lute has 20 uses of Fimbultvetr which I think she can get off in 40 seconds given her opponent isn't moving. So the question becomes, do I think Fury can take 20 casts of Fimbulvetr from Lute before dying.
I personally don't think he does. Heavily armored humans with no special magic resist drop in 1 or 2 casts from a level 20 Mage Lute, and I'm not convinced Bryan's tankiness extends well to magic. I mean, he's obviously going to take more than 1 or 2. But 20? eh, don't think so. He'll probably be dead with a good 10 seconds to spare minimum.
So yeah Lute wins.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
And since DC mentioned his viewpoint and all hype from this comes from the endings, if that's going to be taken as canon, then the intros would likewise have to be canon:
Considerably recoiling from Paul Phoenix's hits, as well as even losing his grip on his weaponry and even thinking he needs to use it in a fight against him. There's also stuff such as Yoshimitsu being a major rival of his.
If he truly needs to fight all out against either of these two, then up against magic that he DOESN'T resist and not allowed to launch a counteroffensive or even dodge? He's so, so out of luck.
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
One thing I'm curious about is how you guys see the divide between defense and magic defense. I tend to consider it a matter of game mechanics, but I may be in the minority on that.
Here's how I generally look at it. Suppose that a mage makes a fireball and hurls it at someone. The fire was magically created, but once it's created, it's not qualitatively different than a fireball from, say, a torch or a flamethrower. So if the target had protection from heat, it would work equally well against a mage's fireball and a flamethrower. But the target wouldn't react differently in terms of defense + magic defense. It's just being hit with a certain degree of force.
There can definitely be quantitative differences -- for instance, a powerful mage could probably create a fireball that's hotter and therefore more damaging than your garden-variety torch. But that's just an issue of magnitude.
Anyway yeah, interested to know how you guys perceive this.
-- another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
KJH posted... And since DC mentioned his viewpoint and all hype from this comes from the endings, if that's going to be taken as canon, then the intros would likewise have to be canon:
Considerably recoiling from Paul Phoenix's hits, as well as even losing his grip on his weaponry and even thinking he needs to use it in a fight against him. There's also stuff such as Yoshimitsu being a major rival of his.
If he truly needs to fight all out against either of these two, then up against magic that he DOESN'T resist and not allowed to launch a counteroffensive or even dodge? He's so, so out of luck.
Okay, I can't believe I'm even going to touch on how dumb the "If endings are seen as canon, intros should be, too!" is. Some endings are at least referenced in other games/other endings/etc. Nothing in the random "LOOK AT EVERYBODY FIGHTING EACH OTHER" intros is EVER referenced by ANYTHING. Unless it's a specific story intro like Heihachi getting blown up by Jacks, well...
Second, Fury is very noticeably not even remotely harmed by Paul's hits, even if you DO count that intro as canon for some huge illogical reason. Just because he can be knocked around doesn't mean he's being damaged, and it's clear he isn't.
Third, Fury doesn't even fight a majority of the Tekken cast for most of the games because that's not even his objective by the latter half of them, when he's at his strongest.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
Magic fire isn't necessarily the same as normal fire, no. In many sources where magic exists, magic flame can't even cause stuff to light on fire.
You're assuming that magic is creating a source of physical fire and then throwing it at them-- that might not be the case. It could just be energy that causes the same effect as fire or burns if it hits you. It might also be like fire but might permeate armor because armor just doesn't guard in the "right way"
Like uh, think of it like this. A dude can swing at you with a scalding hot iron or a fireball as hot as the iron can be thrown at you-- both are gonna be causing roughly the same degree of burns to what they hit. But say you're wearing like, a chain mesh shirt for protection. The iron won't be able to get through that easily, so you're protected from that. But the fireball on the other hand, it's going to seep through the holes and burn you anyway even though you're protected against the hot iron that can't poke through the holes cause they aren't big enough.
So yeah you can say your armor that works well against all forms of physical attacks is like the mesh shirt there against magical attacks, and they just ooze through it, or something. I dunno, maybe the analogy lost some people but I think it fits.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Which happens in yet another ending (Bryan's Tekken 3 end). I don't really buy that any more than I buy Kuma kidnapping Heihachi, taking him into outer space and throwing him out of a shuttle (Kuma's Tekken 6 ending)
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable
Not really convinced by Lute's ability to melt fury. Way I see it, when you start no-selling big explosions, magic becomes less problematic - Fury might get chipped down, but probably won't go down here.
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DeathChicken posted... Which happens in yet another ending (Bryan's Tekken 3 end). I don't really buy that any more than I buy Kuma kidnapping Heihachi, taking him into outer space and throwing him out of a shuttle (Kuma's Tekken 6 ending)
But that's the way Tekken works.
There are non-canon, usually more humorous endings, like that, that clearly don't happen because they directly conflict.
There are endings specifically that push the story.
And then there are endings that, while they don't push the story, are still canon and later on referenced in one way or another, or at least not disproved.
Fury's endings usually fall in that third category. It's why he's still a threat to people like Yoshimitsu. He's so damn tanky/violent and they flat out haven't been able to stop him yet.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
From: StealThisSheen | #033 DeathChicken posted... Which happens in yet another ending (Bryan's Tekken 3 end). I don't really buy that any more than I buy Kuma kidnapping Heihachi, taking him into outer space and throwing him out of a shuttle (Kuma's Tekken 6 ending)
But that's the way Tekken works.
There are non-canon, usually more humorous endings, like that, that clearly don't happen because they directly conflict.
There are endings specifically that push the story.
And then there are endings that, while they don't push the story, are still canon and later on referenced in one way or another, or at least not disproved.
Fury's endings usually fall in that third category. It's why he's still a threat to people like Yoshimitsu. He's so damn tanky/violent and they flat out haven't been able to stop him yet.
Not to mention that...he's balanced around those endings here. They're included in his abilities, writeup, and god knows what else. To say they don't count is silly when they even get namedropped in the writeup that grants or blocks feats.
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So? Roo's writeup could state that he is a kangaroo made out of sentient cheese, but unless there was an ability or something that specifically made him into a cheesey kangaroo, I probably wouldn't pay that much mind either. It's not what he is
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DeathChicken posted... So? Roo's writeup could state that he is a kangaroo made out of sentient cheese, but unless there was an ability or something that specifically made him into a cheesey kangaroo, I probably wouldn't pay that much mind either. It's not what he is
Yes, because that's the same as having feats listed in a write-up that are actually supported by the games.
It totally is.
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If by 'Supported by the games' you mean 'Supported by Tekken character endings, which are pretty much never canon unless it involves a Mishima, and even then it's iffy', sure
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You're assuming that magic is creating a source of physical fire and then throwing it at them-- that might not be the case. It could just be energy that causes the same effect as fire or burns if it hits you. It might also be like fire but might permeate armor because armor just doesn't guard in the "right way"
I guess it's possible. I find the explanation "it's a ball of fire" to be a lot more intuitively sensible than "it's something that looks just like a ball of fire but actually has entirely different properties despite having the same effect on impact." Kind of an Occam's razor thing.
Reflecting further, I do see magic resistance being a factor against spells that don't manifest themselves as some kind of physical force. Like say someone has a magic spell that turns the enemy into a bunny. Magic resistance would help block that. But I see Lute's Fimbulvetr as being in the "creates a physical force" category, so magic resistance wouldn't be a factor here.
-- another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
Occam's razor doesn't really apply to magic or fiction in general. I'm just giving you an explanation that works better than "game mechanics" for what the stats mean.
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Hell, I think all but Hwoarang's Tekken 6 ending have been canon, for a perfect example of somebody who has canon endings that don't impact the storyline in a big way.
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I don't know Tekken too well in particular, but I know in most fighting games all but a few storylines are even relevant, and even fewer when it comes to the endings. I would absolutely take the intro to mean more than endings if they convey any useful information-- the MK games are a great example of this.
I personally think Fury is about as tanky as that ending has him at cause the write-up is giving him feats from said ending, but don't think it's as impressive as some would tout it being.
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Occam's razor doesn't really apply to magic or fiction in general. I'm just giving you an explanation that works better than "game mechanics" for what the stats mean.
Yeah. I'm just trying to explain why I find my interp to be more intuitive than yours. Your view is internally consistent but makes less sense to me than "When a mage makes a fireball, he makes a fireball."
-- another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
Lopen posted... I don't know Tekken too well in particular, but I know in most fighting games all but a few storylines are even relevant, and even fewer when it comes to the endings. I would absolutely take the intro to mean more than endings if they convey any useful information-- the MK games are a great example of this.
I personally think Fury is about as tanky as that ending has him at cause the write-up is giving him feats from said ending, but don't think it's as impressive as some would tout it being.
That intro he posted isn't anything like MK intros, though. Tekken games tend to always have a random "Look at everybody randomly doing martial arts and fighting to music" intros that have nothing to do with anything. Sometimes they are preceded by a storyline intro, like the example of Heihachi being blown up, but... Paul vs. Bryan in that intro is definitely non-canon, one hundred times moreso than an ending could claim to be.
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From: Drakeryn | #046 Says the guy who forfeited a Fury/Lute duel a week ago instead of trying to actually argue it.
I forfeited so if the scenario came up again I could argue it on a bigger stage. I thought I could forfeit the side topic and beat you - I was correct.
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Well if you want, I can go into geek mode to explain further.
In certain fiction's magic there are schools of magic to differentiate between literally creating a fireball and throwing a magical fireball. For instance, in Dungeons and Dragons they have the conjuration school that has a fireball spell, and the evocation school that has a fireball spell. The difference between the two is how they're resisted-- magical resistance does not actually even apply to the conjuration type because you're creating physical fire and throwing it-- all the "magic" is expended when the fireball is created, and when it's thrown it's literal fire. In addition, certain armor will work against it because it's fire. However, with the evocation type, the fireball is subject to magical resistances, no armor will protect you unless it's specifically made for anti-magic, and most combustibles won't actually light on fire.
So what I'm saying is it's possible we're both right, but in a setting where magic is not apparently affected by heavy armor, it's more likely that magic is the evocation type rather than the conjuration type.
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From: Drakeryn | #049 I forfeited so if the scenario came up again I could argue it on a bigger stage.
Eh, I don't really buy it. Feels like a retcon to save face.
You do realize I beat you, right?
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Behold the majesty that is Doom. Feast upon his greatness, and know you will never measure up. http://img.imgcake.com/Punny/scenemaybecompletepngre.png