Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ KOS-MOS/Axl/Old Snake/Ridley vs. Kefka/Ryu/Revan/Big Boss/Liquid/Joanna

(+) Yeah! (+)

DC is correct, they have to go on a trial before the revival.

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In fact, those clones are even *more* of a harm than a help, since if Axl can stealth and they can't, they're completely giving him away wherever the hell he goes

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From: DeathChicken | #049
Then they're still damn useless, as they literally die to anything. And no, they can't *chip* my team to death, as I have two sources of healing here in Revan and Big Boss, and they have none. Only healing at all on the other team is apparently KOS-MOS, and she has her own problems

Are you seriously arguing *Big Boss* as healing and then saying the clones are useless? Like, seriously? And then arguing Revan's healing without mentioning that doing so cuts into his ability to use the force offensively (this includes such things as speeding up, Force Pushes and Pulls, and even the ability to properly deflect attacks if he taps out)? What a great argument, right there. Particularly considering there's going to be lots of explosives around so even collateral damage will hurt your team, and once killed, your mercenaries do not revive.

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From: DeathChicken | #052
In fact, those clones are even *more* of a harm than a help, since if Axl can stealth and they can't, they're completely giving him away wherever the hell he goes

This implies the clones are incapable of free will. This is not the case. They're not Ryu H style dupes.

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Are you seriously arguing *Big Boss* as healing and then saying the clones are useless? Like, seriously?

Given that Big Boss has an infinite amount of healing darts (hi Bandana), and you have a pair of Bubs? Yes, quite seriously. Big Boss smokes them as far as usefulness goes. Badly.

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As for Revan, the argument at hand was that Axl would somehow chip my team to death while...Ridley of all things went and hid (what). Given that Axl's revival is going to take some time, Revan isn't going to be at it alone as far as healing goes, and that his MP as it were regens on its own, yeah. He's more than capable of offsetting any damage

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From: DeathChicken | #055
Are you seriously arguing *Big Boss* as healing and then saying the clones are useless? Like, seriously?

Given that Big Boss has an infinite amount of healing darts (hi Bandana), and you have a pair of Bubs? Yes, quite seriously. Big Boss smokes them as far as usefulness goes. Badly.

Healing darts don't cure the dead status, however, and considering Main!Axl has his Hyper Mode he can simply shoot all those explosive boxes you left lying around (or transform and use some very deadly mass AoEs to nuke Ryu, Joanna, BB and Revan down ASAP because they're squishy humans) while your team will not know where the attacks are coming from. At the same time, the Clone!Axls will be doing their thing, and the rest of the team can easily deal with Liquid and his Hind and Kefka, if they come across them (Snake can shoot Liquid down with the railgun and go into hiding for example). You made Ravenholm into a deathtrap. Against invisible enemies, no less. What else would you expect here, if it isn't your team being reduced to chunky giblets in the crossfire?

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This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. Let's take it step by step.

Healing darts don't cure the dead status

Well, good thing my guys aren't looking to be dead. What was supposed to be killing them, again? You never did account for who was supposed to be doing anything about Kefka, Ryu (you can foolishly try to discount him all you'd like, but a Ryu commanded to Killing Intent is a beast), Big Boss, Joanna or Revan. You kind of accounted for Liquid and his Hind, but not in a fashion that made any sense.

however, and considering Main!Axl has his Hyper Mode he can simply shoot all those explosive boxes you left lying around

Yeah, except how is he supposed to know the cardboard boxes laying around the field are rigged to explode? And if he's wasting time doing that, he isn't exactly being stealthy, or...doing anything else useful, like fighting my six guys while they go and kill the whole *two guys* you have left (no, I'm still not giving those Bub clones any credit. They die to flying cardboard box debris. They're Bubs)

(or transform and use some very deadly mass AoEs to nuke Ryu, Joanna, BB and Revan down ASAP because they're squishy humans) while your team will not know where the attacks are coming from

Because surely my team would be all grouped together and capable of being hit by AoE attacks on a terrain this large. To say nothing of the fact that Liquid has his own with the missiles, Revan has his own with lightning, Kefka has his own with his spells (and a barrage of homing spells that track down targets for him. Nothing stopping him at all from just using those to get rid of Axl's worthless clones from a mile off)

At the same time, the Clone!Axls will be doing their thing

Bubs. They're Bubs, and they're dead as soon as much of anything comes sailing their way, and probably don't even require that much, as the terrain will kill them before that even happens

and the rest of the team can easily deal with Liquid and his Hind and Kefka, if they come across them (Snake can shoot Liquid down with the railgun and go into hiding for example)

That easy, eh? Just easily dealing with a chopper that's heavily armored enough to take dozens of Stinger missiles, a mage with tracking spells that doesn't have to get anywhere near you to kill you, and his mindwiped karate minion. Right.

You made Ravenholm into a deathtrap. Against invisible enemies, no less.

You again seem to be happily ignoring that stealth doesn't even work on two foes armed with IR vision. And that Joanna and Big Boss are also invisible

What else would you expect here, if it isn't your team being reduced to chunky giblets in the crossfire?

Yours being reduced to chunky giblets, since there are way the hell more of mine than yours (discounting those clones you keep overhyping), they have the means to beat your guys in a war of attrition, due to their healing working faster than Axl's resurrection gimmick, and they have the stealth to match your guy's stealth, plus the means to render your stealth pointless

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First off: Why would Big Boss and Joanna even be using Infrared? This implies metagame knowledge. Which is, y'know, kinda not kosher.

Now that that's out of the way, you're arguing your team is going to split. This...sort of gives Axl the perfect opportunity to shred everyone, since it's as simple as firing a point blank Black Arrow (homing attack) or three and moving on to the next target.

As for the explosives, look up: Axl has AoE attacks. Just by letting loose with the better weapons in his arsenal he can wreak some havoc. Imagine all those explosive barrels and boxes, going off at the same time, and setting off traps too. Your team is squishy and can't survive that. Mine most certainly can.

Then you go on to argue Liquid's Hind surviving a shot straight to the engine from the railgun. That's just not gonna fly (har har): a hi-tech gun is going to savage the engine, and Liquid is a good pilot, but not good enough to keep helicopter with a failing engine up. After all, he crashes and burns in a cutscene after the Hind is sufficiently damaged.

And Ryu is not going into Satsui No Hadou any time soon. SnH is a 'surge of murderous intent' (that's even in the name in fact). Meanwhile, the Slave Crown...dampens the character's emotions, and makes them subservient to Kefka. Ryu doesn't have any rage boiling inside him, nor any desire to win, which he needs to go Evil Ryu on people. Your argument goes directly against how SnH works in Street Fighter, sorry.

As for who deals with Kefka, the answer is 'the rest of the team'. Axl can take on the landbound enemies, while Liquid and Kefka are up to KOS-MOS and Ridley. Even if you think KOS-MOS can't go with Ridley, she can function as a gun battery just fine, and a barrage of lasers will cramp up Kefka's style something fierce while the big scary dragon monster comes barrelling towards him. If Kefka or Liquid survive (and that's a pretty big 'if'), Axl can easily dispatch them. He has the time to try and try again until he succeeds, if his three-clone posse doesn't make it so he succeeds on the first attempt.

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Didn't say Big Boss is using infrared. I said Liquid would be, as it's a built-in feature of the Hind. Sucks for Axl.

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Let's just again run over the most likely scenario, given the tactics espoused by your side. KOS-MOS starts out crippled, Ridley is around, Axl and his clones are around, Snake is around. Explosive cardboard boxes littering Ravenholm, that no one but my side knows precisely what they do. Snake probably does figure that Big Boss is lurking around inside one of them, but has no real way of knowing which one. At this point, your team most likely tromps through them while Ridley sprays fire randomly, which is going to result in explosions and Axl immediately losing his useless clones, since yet again, they die to *anything*. Or they can go above them, utilizing the highly silly 'Crippled KOS-MOS hangs onto Ridley's feet' idea, while Snake slips off somewhere or another. Most likely scenario there is, they run into Liquid first, who fires some missiles at Ridley. Ridley, being TOO BIG, ain't exactly dodging them or anything. He'll probably live, but if KOS-MOS was trying to catch a ride, down she goes to the box minefield, boom boom boom. KOS-MOS is dead, but at least now they know that those boxes probably shouldn't be stepped on.

At this point, we have Hind Liquid vs Ridley and Axl, who may or may not still have his clones, depending on if they've died to flying debris yet. Axl probably hits the stealth here. Liquid shoots him anyway and kills him, because the Hind has heat vision. Sucks for him. Ridley attacks the Hind. Hind can take it, since as noted, it's pretty heavily armored. Liquid most likely goes away to abuse the terrain and hide behind the buildings, since that seems to be his favorite Hind tactic. Now you have Ridley alone, while elsewhere, Joanna and Big Boss have probably taken up sniper positions by now, Kefka has sent out Ryu to kill things on the ground, Revan will join in somewhere in here (and frankly, he whups Ridley in any kind of one-on-one situation. Too fast, too skilled), and...yeah, you have a *gigantic* numbers problem that's going to leave Ridley dead, once he doesn't have Axl around to back him up. If you're lucky, you might manage to drop Liquid here. But that's not very plausible either, given his penchant for the hit and run.

Meanwhile, Snake is invisible somewhere around here. He's also traversing a trap laden Ravenholm, Ryu is probably patrolling the grounds somewhere, Joanna has had plenty of time by this point to set up laptop guns to give him even more hell, and his stealth just plain doesn't work on her given IR vision. And explosive boxes still everywhere. For imagination's sake, I see him running into Ryu, trying to get the drop on him, and having it not quite work due to the terrain being explosively hellish and there likely being saw blades and mines around. Snake engages Killing Intent Ryu. Presuming Kefka is still around to give him his evil orders. Kefka happily floats along and fries him with homing spells while he's busy battling. Again, a bad numbers problem. This is what happens if he's breaking off alone, while Ridley and Axl are elsewhere left to their own devices, and there are six opponents to face them.

Now you have Axl left, who has probably gotten up by this point. Giving your team a *lot* of benefit of the doubt, they've taken out Liquid and Ryu by now (and I highly doubt their ability to actually kill Liquid, given his penchant for Hind ambush attacks. More likely that they've battered him, but he's still up). Big Boss and Revan have had plenty of time to toss heals while he goes through his Tawodi trial. Axl now faces Revan, Joanna, Kefka whenever he's done humoring himself with killing Snake, Big Boss. He has his clones again. His clones still aren't doing a damn thing of note, due to their durability problems. Your *best* chance in this fight, and that's giving you all possible benefit of the doubt, is for Axl to pull off a win versus at *least* five angry people. Not happening. I win this fight, and the scenarios in which you win are implausible at best

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Ravenholm is a dark place isn't it? Don't see infrared as being that out of the question, if it allows them to more easily pick out any enemy, not just the invisible Axl.

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Call me numbers.

i'm pretty sure infrared/thermal vision isn't effective against robots.

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dragon22391 posted...
Ravenholm is a dark place isn't it? Don't see infrared as being that out of the question, if it allows them to more easily pick out any enemy, not just the invisible Axl.

That, and it isn't exactly a meta strategy at all, given Big Boss is on one side and Snake is on the other. They're more than familiar with each other's tricks, and what they should be doing to counter them (unfortunately for Snake, Big Boss's team is better equipped to snuff his stealth than Snake is equipped to do vice versa)

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Silverliner182V posted...
i'm pretty sure infrared/thermal vision isn't effective against robots.

... There is this.

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Sure it does. They give off heat like anything else (see what happens in MGS2 when you use thermal goggles on something like Ray)

Of course, I have no idea if this is a realistic depiction of thermal imaging, but it's how it works in Metal Gear, so hey

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I definitely buy your mercs using infrared for the reasons numbers stated. Dunno about the robot/infrared thing.

KOS-MOS knows about the explosive boxes because you've used the ability against her before.


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At best, that'll prevent them from immediately tromping through the boxes and blowing themselves up. Still won't help them traverse it any better. KOS-MOS in particular has no options at all for movement other than wheelchairing it (she blows up), or the wonky ride Ridley strategy, which I don't buy doing much except gaining her a few seconds, before she falls off and blows up

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KOS-MOS can probably hang on, but her aim is going to be hilarious. I kind of doubt Ridley is going to be cooperative enough for her to be an effective air gunner.

Though I do see Ridley being able to take down a helicopter.


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Even if ridley is cooperative, I don't see his flight being very fluid with someone weighing him down on one side, firing, causing even more bobbing around.

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Yeah, if anything, that combination would just get them both killed in a hurry by Liquid. Those missiles of his are nasty. Again, they're the ones that completely obliterate the top of the Comm Center in MGS1, save for that one tiny patch you have to run to or die

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...and again, once KOS-MOS is dead (which she is under everything but the most implausible circumstances), what you have left are Ridley, Snake, and Axl (with clones that die in one hit) versus Liquid's chopper, Joanna, Kefka, Ryu, Big Boss and Revan. This is *not* a situation in which Ridley's team fairs terribly well, even taking into account Axl's rezzing, since that isn't something that's immediate, and if Axl goes down in that fight, Ridley or Snake are probably going to die well before he gets up.

Hell, all it really takes for Ridley to be finished is Revan nailing him with Plague, which inflicts Poison and Slow. At that point, he's too damn big to dodge much and not fast enough to do it anyway, and Liquid's followup missiles/Big Boss's followup M47/Revan's lightsaber/Ultima pretty much overkill him. Which still leaves Joanna and Ryu free to go deal with Snake.

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Don't see Ridley being too great here, but he does what he needs to-- the chopper is a great "counter" for him... "counter" in the sense that it's gonna damage him heavily with little effort. I actually think Ridley takes Liquid but gets really hurt doing so-- a giant dragon slamming into a helicopter is going to take it down doesn't matter how armored it is. I buy KOS-MOS hitching a ride on Ridley and shooting wildly-- she might randomly hit something. In any case, the unit is a good distraction for the Axl Clones to go to work.

Speaking of the Axl clones, they're highly mobile and the enemy team doesn't know they die in one hit. They also don't know they (or Axl) are going to come back. Unlike Tawodi Axl + 3 clones have a lot more damage output, so the surprise of them respawning is going to do good damage the first time, I think they murder someone by surprise on respawn-- they probably murder someone before going down the first time too-- the problem is that Liquid's team is relatively squishy aside from Kefka and Liquid, so yeah having respawning damage batteries constantly attacking them is not going to end well for them.

Also Solid Snake being at a disadvantage for stealth is bullcrap. Snake's octocamo regulates the suit's temperature to blend with the surroundings for the express purpose of foiling thermal/infrared vision. Snake's solid eye on the other hand is going to see through Joanna/Big Boss's stealth measures as their stealth don't have anti-thermal technology. So yeah Snake can stay hidden as long as he wants basically-- Revan may be able to sense him but I think the chaos is going to be making him focus on more urgent things.

So between Snake being hard as hell to find, Ridley and wildly firing KOS-MOS being a huge distraction, I don't see why Axl's infinitely respawning 4 selves don't just win this alone, really.

Axl GODSTOMPS

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Solid Eye doesn't even do thermal vision. It does night vision and telescoping

And anyway, I fail to see why the hell my team would *need* to know that the Axl clones are going to die instantly. They'll figure that out about as soon as they shoot at them and they die

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Not to mention, you aren't even taking into account the time needed for Axl to respawn. It isn't instant. Takes...whatever amount of time it would require to do the Prey bullet shooting game, which is more than enough for six guys to kill Ridley

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The Solid Eye's night vision also has infrared built into it. Hell I think all the modes might have thermal built into it because the eye is supposed to be able to read the emotional state of soldiers by detecting their heat readings or some crap and I think the way it detects footprints is with heat signatures or something.

Also I don't see Axl having much trouble killing Tommy's Prey test and we already determined it was 15-20 seconds for Tawodi to do it in the past, so yeah, doesn't take that long. I see Ridley lasting that long.

And my point about them not knowing Axl's clones die in one hit was that they can't metagame it and use weak attacks with giant AoE or fire bullets wildly with the hope that one stray bullet hits to get them down, so they're going to be harder to kill that first life because with their flight they are capable dodgers.

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I have good enough respect for Ridley's durability, but there's no way in hell he lasts 20 seconds versus Liquid's copter + Revan + Kefka. Too much smash

Toss in Big Boss's M47 and Joanna hitting him with N Bombs (no particular reason Ridley should be immune to a neural disruptor), and it's even worse

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*shrug* I disagree. Mostly because I don't really think any force powers are great against Ridley. Like there's force lightning but that's not crazy damage against a mammoth-- it's mostly an anti-personnel weapon-- and he won't be in a position to use his lightsaber-- unless he wants to throw with the force it but that's a little risky. Kefka's useful but still not enough. Also I see Ridley hurling himself into the chopper so he's going to have some cover from others firing stuff at him.

They're also going to be distracted by KOS-MOS blasting and flying Axls. Yeah, I don't see Ridley going down in 15-20 seconds, at least not fully-- he might be on the outs but yeah. The second respawn he'll certainly be dead by but yeah the Axls will have had their sneak attack by that point.

Snake's also quite useful here. He's got superior stealth and a rail gun.

Basically the way I see it is, at minimum:

Ridley kills Liquid before going down
Axl + clones kill someone before going down the first time because the enemy team outside of Kefka is relatively squishy and they'll have Ridley as a distraction.
Axl + clones surprise respawn catches the enemy off guard and kills another.

What we're left then is with Snake vs 3 at maximum, and Axls that keep coming. Thing is Snake knows the Axls will come back, so he can time a surprise attack with one of the respawns and take someone out himself pretty easily, meaning in the third respawn Snake pops a guy and it's now Axl + clones + Snake vs 2, and Snake's team wins that match against any two of your mercs. Kefka + Revan might be tough, but I see Snake popping one of those two when he attacks after surveying the battlefield for threat potential.

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Revan has other stuff besides Force Lightning. Plague would mess Ridley over but good. Being slowed and poisoned when there's a helicopter waiting to hit you with missiles is bad news. I again don't buy KOS-MOS hanging onto Ridley's feet doing anything but screwing both of them up. Her aim will be crap, she'll be slowing down Ridley's flight, and any sort of impact from the Hind is probably going to dislodge her, at which point she falls down onto mine boxes and dies

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As for the other, you're discounting Joanna and Big Boss having their own stealth camo, plus extremely long range weapons in the sniper rifles and missiles. Axl has no real way of knowing where either of them are either, until they get around to shooting him, and by then it's too late

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Force plague I see making Ridley easier to down, but not really helping in overall damage output. I also see the toxin working a bit less rapidly than against humans because Ridley weighs so damn much.

I also don't see KOS-MOS really affecting Ridley's flight-- she won't be that useful beyond bad cover fire but yeah. Unless she weighs a ton-- I was under the assumption that she didn't weigh that much.

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If Boss and Joanna stealth up that means the Axls are probably going to kill Kefka + Revan with their initial assault + sneak attack, leaving Solid Snake vs two lesser stealthers-- I take Snake in that match.

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Well I suppose plague might actually work just as fast on Ridley because it works against his mind to make him think he's poisoned more than actually using the force to poison.

Still though, doesn't really help with damage, and Ridley's going to maintain momentum and adrenaline so at least he'll take Liquid down then be a sitting duck.

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....Big Boss and Joanna would demolish Old Snake. We already saw what BB did to him in the MGS4 ending. Snake tried to fight him. BB disarmed him with no effort, then...er, hugged him. But still

Joanna being there just makes it worse, as her weapons are all the sort that poison you and leave you for dead upon any kind of hit. She hits Snake with a knife, his vision is screwed. She hits him with a crossbow bolt, he's drugged. She hits him with an N Bomb, his weapons are all on the floor and he can't see

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Snake didn't get the jump on Big Boss in the ending is the problem. Straight fight yeah Big Boss might have a chance, but Snake will be getting the jump on both of them here. Snake's just got better stealth, better stealth detection, and better weapons than at least Big Boss.

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I agree that the poison probably wouldn't do much to Ridley on its own, but it doesn't really have to. If he's suddenly slowed down and ill, it just opens him up to other attacks, and he can't afford those. As I pointed out earlier, Liquid's missiles pack enough punch to at least flatten the top level of a concrete reinforced building. I'm inclined to think that a direct hit to Ridley would ruin his day

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To put it another way, the damage Liquid did with those things was *way* the hell more impressive than any single attack Samus ever showed. She's never been a building flattener

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Nah. Ridley sucks a ton of a punishment down from Samus, who has pretty impressive missiles of her own. Not quite as destructive as Hind D missiles, but he can take a ton from Samus so yeah-- he could take several Hind D missiles before dropping. I don't think Ridley's great as a fighter but one thing he is is a tank, and more durable than a concrete building.

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Samus has never been a building flattener only because her environments aren't designed to be destroyed through normal gameplay.



There is an exact clone of Samus at high power, destroying walls. I assure you, those walls are much sturdier than near any concrete building.

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And that goes back to the point that it's not like Liquid has to do it alone, here. Assuming he gets in a shot with the missile, Revan can pretty easily finish Ridley off. And if he can't, Kefka will. There's a problem when the only way Ridley's team really stands any chance at all is if Axl manages to down two people on his own. If he can't, they basically lose, as I maintain that any combination of two here can go kill Snake. Ryu + anyone can do it, really. Just need Ryu to provide a distraction and blow Snake's cover, then Joanna can follow it up with her drug attack. Or BB can follow it up with the Patriot. Or...anyone can follow it up with anything. Snake is not surviving very long once his location is known.

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SA-X knocking a hole in a wall doesn't exactly match up to Liquid taking out the roof of the Communication's Tower with one missile. Still a great big power discrepancy, there

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Team Kefka

The arguments against Liquid's team have been laughably bad and ignorant of the competition. Camo Snake vs. Boxed Big Boss and Cloaked Joanna w/ IR, Kefka magicks, lol Axl clones and Tawodi Trial revives aren't instant... I love the KOS-MOS rides around firing her gun, and can definitely see her climbing up on Ridley's back at some point (though no legs to stabilize =/), and it can probably take out the Hind at some point (though the Hind does damage). Axl's awesome in this fight, but his allies can't back him up effectively.

The other side just has better odds. They have more knowledge of the scenario, better access to unveiling stealth tactics (which they WOULD use since stealth is a tactic used quite often in Mercs fights and because Ravenholm is quite dark), better numbers, more varies attack types and probably better positioning, and a better arsenal Axl aside. Axl's definitely the greatest player on the field, but he can be taken out fairly handily and his allies would be easy targets without him around.

From: Mega Mana | #092
Team Kefka

The arguments against Liquid's team have been laughably bad and ignorant of the competition. Camo Snake vs. Boxed Big Boss and Cloaked Joanna w/ IR, Kefka magicks, lol Axl clones and Tawodi Trial revives aren't instant... I love the KOS-MOS rides around firing her gun, and can definitely see her climbing up on Ridley's back at some point (though no legs to stabilize =/), and it can probably take out the Hind at some point (though the Hind does damage). Axl's awesome in this fight, but his allies can't back him up effectively.

The other side just has better odds. They have more knowledge of the scenario, better access to unveiling stealth tactics (which they WOULD use since stealth is a tactic used quite often in Mercs fights and because Ravenholm is quite dark), better numbers, more varies attack types and probably better positioning, and a better arsenal Axl aside. Axl's definitely the greatest player on the field, but he can be taken out fairly handily and his allies would be easy targets without him around.

Point me to where somebody argued the revives are instant. The initial argument goes with the *worst case* scenario, Mana. If you're going to accuse voters and leaders of ignorance, take two seconds to read first.

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I didn't accuse instant revivification as an argument, it just seemed set up that way earlier on before it as explicitly pointed out not to be.

That was *everyone's* argument, until I pointed out that Axl is beholden to the same rules Tawodi is.

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How comparable is Axl to Zero anyways?

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I would guess nowhere in Zero's league. Doesn't Zero beat him outright in X7?

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Hmm... What about just in terms of offensive output?

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DeathChicken posted...
SA-X knocking a hole in a wall doesn't exactly match up to Liquid taking out the roof of the Communication's Tower with one missile. Still a great big power discrepancy, there

It doesn't... until you consider that Samus is far in the future and in a space station designed to contain many of the universe's most powerful/dangerous creatures, including Metroids, and keep them from escaping. They're going to have some damn good walls on that thing; I somehow doubt cement can compare with the structural integrity of that ship.

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http://www.nbc.com/parks-and-recreation/exclusives/ron-dancing-animated.gif

did someone mention structural integrity of concrete

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