Board 8 > Daily reminder that the Opera Scene blows.

(+) Yeah! (+)

1) The music and lyrics are bad. In a game filled to the brim with classic 16-bit tunes, why people cling to this painfully generic tripe, with lyrics that call to mind a middle-schooler's shallow daydream, is beyond me. It's just shameful. As I've said before on this board, I've shown this scene to friends of mine (who are only casual gamers), and they laughed at it. Laughed.

2) Opera isn't even good to begin with. It's the music for people who listen to public radio, who want to fancy themselves "cultured" without having to put in any effort. Opera music was to the Baroque era what pop music is today: a handful of truly talented artists, but by-and-large artistic refuse that sought only to cater to the masses. Why people consider such a scene, rendered in all its 16-bit limitations, as somehow "expressive" is, again, beyond me.

It's, like, overrated garbage compounded upon overrated garbage. Unbelievable.

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Thumbs up

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It's just shameful. As I've said before on this board, I've shown this scene to friends of mine (who are only casual gamers), and they laughed at it. Laughed.

oh man the call of duty and madden crowd doesn't like it, how embarrassing!

I have "CoD buddies" who still laugh at Greek statues because of the naughty bits. And no, I'm not saying that the Opera Scene is as good as the art of the ancient Greeks, I'm saying it's better.

OPERA
SCENE

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oh man the call of duty and madden crowd doesn't like it, how embarrassing!

yeah man eff those regular, socially well-adjusted kids who enjoy sports and women


...You know, this actually describes one of my friends pretty well, I'll give you that. The other is a music major (and probably one of my biggest role models). Take that as you will!

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Kids that were still in diapers when the game was released and have no context for appreciating games from that era aren't impressed.

Oh.

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yeah man eff those regular, socially well-adjusted kids who enjoy sports and women

so basically you're saying people who like opera are weirdos

interesting

not that I like opera in general, and I'll agree that the lyrics to the song are pretty bad, but nothing wrong with the composition itself. celes' theme is one of uematsu's better melodies on that soundtrack IMO

Kids that were still in diapers when the game was released and have no context for appreciating games from that era aren't impressed.

One is literally a music major. Literally majoring in music. I don't think age is an issue for him; he can just distinguish between what's good and what's horribly embarrassing.

celes' theme is one of uematsu's better melodies on that soundtrack IMO

No doubt; the Opera Scene just happens to be miles away the worst rendition of it!

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IIRC it's only used twice outside of the end medley so that wouldn't even be particularly insulting, second best isn't bad!

OH NO A FF GAME ALSO BEING CHUU2 THIS HAS NEVER BEEN DISCOVERED EVER

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not what i meant you cheeky bastard. even most fan renditions completely blow it away

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BoshStrikesBack posted...
Kids that were still in diapers when the game was released and have no context for appreciating games from that era aren't impressed.

One is literally a music major. Literally majoring in music. I don't think age is an issue for him; he can just distinguish between what's good and what's horribly embarrassing.

celes' theme is one of uematsu's better melodies on that soundtrack IMO

No doubt; the Opera Scene just happens to be miles away the worst rendition of it!

Somebody's opinion on a piece is automatically correct because he is "majoring in music". I wasn't aware music majors were a hive mind and all agree on the quality of this piece. Also, why does anyone even bother to discuss music when we have experts like your friend to tell everyone what the correct opinion is.

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From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch

One is literally a music major. Literally majoring in music. I don't think age is an issue for him; he can just distinguish between what's good and what's horribly embarrassing.

and...there are music majors that do like the song, not that majoring in music actually makes anyones opinion more valuable to begin with. it just certifies that someone has an adept knowledge of music theory.

Only good thing in an other wise boring game

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if I major in chuu2 does that mean if I call boshie a chuu2 I am right

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I never cared for the Opera Scene either way really

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Come now, you all must be being difficult just for the sake of being difficult. My friend majoring in music has nothing to do with him being "undeniably correct"; it's just a way to demonstrate that, no, he doesn't mind listening to older music (anywhere from ten years old to ten centuries old), and yes, he has been exposed to a wide range of styles.

In other words, saying that his (hilarious) reaction to the Opera Scene was "just some CoD kid not being appreciative," or whatever, is simply wrong.

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isn't this topic just being difficult for the sake of being difficult? is it that upsetting that people like something that you and your circle don't?

I always hated the Opera scene, it was unbearably corny and musically I found it surprisingly dull in a game filled with a lot of great melodies. On the other hand, I saw it performed with a live orchestra and actual opera singers and it was kind of cool, so I'm torn. I think one of the major problems is that trying to emulate the sound of an actual orchestra on the SNES just doesn't work. More than that though, I just can't take the corniness of the whole thing.

Thank you, Paratroopa, for again putting into less warlike language what I was trying to say!

isn't this topic just being difficult for the sake of being difficult? is it that upsetting that people like something that you and your circle don't?

It's to ignite discussion, sure, but I have a goal in mind- namely, to persuade people to wash off all that decaying nostalgia when it comes to mediocre gaming moments.

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BoshStrikesBack posted...
Thank you, Paratroopa, for again putting into less warlike language what I was trying to say!

isn't this topic just being difficult for the sake of being difficult? is it that upsetting that people like something that you and your circle don't?

It's to ignite discussion, sure, but I have a goal in mind- namely, to persuade people to wash off all that decaying nostalgia when it comes to mediocre gaming moments.

So this is yet another "you guys are all blinded by nostalgia" topic.

Don't be that guy.

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From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch

It's to ignite discussion, sure, but I have a goal in mind- namely, to persuade people to wash off all that decaying nostalgia when it comes to mediocre gaming moments.

you call it nostalgia, I call it a lack of imagination. sure it's difficult to approach it in modern times with the memory and polyphony restrictions that the SNES had, as para said, so I can see that it's something that you had to be there for back then, but we're spoiled now with high def recorded audio, it was a different time. has FFVI's sound aged well? no, but I think we can still appreciate what it was for its time

the cheesyness of the lyrics was a precursor for what square has become though. it was easier to tolerate how bad the writing frequently was in old FF games because it was text, once they started using voice acting they had no where to go but downhill.

You know, I never cared much for the Opera Scene but this topic is so awful it's now going to become one of my favorites.

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Opera Scene was pretty whatever. Didn't really do Celes any favors.


It benefited Ultros more than anything.

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You've whined about ff6 so much I don't see how anyone could take you seriously on the subject anymore.


People like a game you don't, get over it.

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I actually quite like the melody of it.

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has FFVI's sound aged well? no, but I think we can still appreciate what it was for its time

Maybe this is where we disagree, because I'd say the FFVI soundtrack has held up very well on the whole (certain tracks notwithstanding). Sound quality and compositional quality are completely independent.

So this is yet another "you guys are all blinded by nostalgia" topic.

Just about this one thing! And yes, I suppose I am that guy. Don't be hating.

You know, I never cared much for the Opera Scene but this topic is so awful it's now going to become one of my favorites.

You must have a pretty low threshold for controversy.

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The opera scene was always great because of Ultros. If you're really going to be annoyed at the lyrics or music, it's so obvious the whole thing isn't really supposed to be taken seriously.

Just like no one should take this topic seriously and just leave.

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No, I have plenty threshold for controversy.

This is just a very bad topic.

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Who's alt were you again?

And the lyrics may be cheesy, but the melody is great.

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BoshStrikesBack posted...
Nothing wrong with spreading the truth brah

Except its not a truth because its a completely subjective thing.

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and oh man, what the hell is this

You've whined about ff6 so much I don't see how anyone could take you seriously on the subject anymore.

Conversely, you (and plenty of others) rant and rave about the game all the time. It's a classic game, and as a result, scenes like the Opera House have received disproportionate amounts of praise. Nothing wrong with spreading the truth brah

If you're really going to be annoyed at the lyrics or music, it's so obvious the whole thing isn't really supposed to be taken seriously.

And yet professional critics have consistently placed it among their favorite all-time gaming moments since its release. Nowhere in its unfathomably universal praise do I hear the words "tongue in cheek," unfortunately. You don't take the lyrics and melody seriously? No problem; most people do.

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I do want to say by the way that I'm not hating on the Opera scene out of a "I'm used to high-def audio and the SNES's soundchip is hilariously dated" perspective. Hell, most of the musical work I do lately is in Famitracker, so I know my dated music formats. I disliked the way it sounded back when the game was still relatively new (I first played it in '98, I think). Old video game soundtracks can be masterpieces when they play to their limitations, the opera scene tries to break through its limitations, which I find admirable but I think it just winds up kind of silly. I've sort of come away from hating it ever since actually hearing it done by a proper orchestra, but it's still musically probably my least favorite part of FF6 and it always has been. It sounded dated to me when it was practically brand new.

Except its not a truth because its a completely subjective thing.

I believe in objective aesthetics.

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BoshStrikesBack posted...
Except its not a truth because its a completely subjective thing.

I believe in objective aesthetics.

Then what are the objective aesthetics that make it a bad composition?

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music is composed of rhythm, melody, harmony, and timbre. timbre and sound quality are connected, and you already said you liked the melody so...what about the composition is bad would you say?

Timbre and sound quality are related, yes. Timbre and compositional quality? Not so much. As for why I feel that way, I could get into it, but I doubt most people would care too much (too busy hating tbh). Suffice to say that I find the melody line to be cheesy, the accompaniment to be lacking, and the whole affair to feel empty.

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Sound quality and compositional quality are completely independent.

music is composed of rhythm, melody, harmony, and timbre. timbre and sound quality are connected, and you already said you liked the melody so...what about the composition is bad would you say? you like a very similar arrangement of the same melody so it would appear that your biggest beef with it is the corny lyrics, which is less of a musical issue and more on the games script writers(and is a consistent problem throughout all of final fantasy, not just the musical parts)

Also I have to agree with Liquid that sound quality and compositional quality are not independent. They can be taken independently to an extent, but you don't have actual music until you have both written and performed it, at which point the two things stop being independent and start working together quite closely. A good composer takes the medium into account. That's not really to say that I think Uematsu made a mistake with the opera scene, because like I said, he was pushing the limits of the format and that's a fine thing to do, I just don't think it worked.

Timbre and compositional quality? Not so much.

I could take your favorite song and completely ruin it just by changing the instruments, timbre selection is definitely part of composition

Suffice to say that I find the melody line to be cheesy, the accompaniment to be lacking, and the whole affair to feel empty.

Thank you for your subjective opinion.

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interestingly para, what you're saying about the opera scene is pretty much what I feel about OWA. it was dated even when it came out and requires a pretty large leap to take it as anything other than a joke in game, and the black mages later arrangement of it really makes me just dislike the original much more

Liquid Wind posted...
interestingly para, what you're saying about the opera scene is pretty much what I feel about OWA. it was dated even when it came out and requires a pretty large leap to take it as anything other than a joke in game, and the black mages later arrangement of it really makes me just dislike the original much more

Is that in the sense that the BM's arrangement is that much better, or that the BM's arrangement exposes more flaws in the original?

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Actually my opinion of One Winged Angel is very similar to my opinion of the opera scene - pushed the limits of the format, didn't work, soundchip wasn't good enough to pull it off and it all comes off as just plain corny. There is one big difference between OWA and the opera scene though and that's that I think OWA is a much more creative piece, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. My opinion of the song has improved over time for reasons I can't really put a finger on, though I'm still pretty lukewarm about it (and FF7's entire soundtrack in general).

Final Fantasy VII is probably, top to bottom, my favorite FF soundtrack.

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TheRock ~ Death By Misadventure, Not Suicide
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Also I have to agree with Liquid that sound quality and compositional quality are not independent. They can be taken independently to an extent, but you don't have actual music until you have both written and performed it, at which point the two things stop being independent and start working together quite closely. A good composer takes the medium into account. That's not really to say that I think Uematsu made a mistake with the opera scene, because like I said, he was pushing the limits of the format and that's a fine thing to do, I just don't think it worked.

It's definitely true that many composers take their medium into account when writing (especially when it comes to chiptune, where limitations are an inherent part of the process), but there's still a natural distinction between sound quality in compositional quality. So, for example, Para might dislike the song in-game, but rather enjoy a live rendition; this, to me, indicates that his problem rests more on the limitations of the software (assuming that the renditions are similar). For me, however, even a fully-orchestrated version of the song wouldn't change the sequence of the notes in the melody, the cheeseball lyrics, or the lacking harmony, so I'd still end up disliking it all the same.

I could take your favorite song and completely ruin it just by changing the instruments, timbre selection is definitely part of composition

Absolutely. I mean, have you seen Mario Paint renditions of songs? But all this tells us is that any composition requires some threshold of sound quality for its compositional quality to be fairly represented. The notes are the notes, no matter what plays them, and that is the problem I have with the Opera Scene (on top of its lyrics, placement in the story, and crazy disproportionate praise).

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BoshStrikesBack | Posted 10/9/2011 1:58:29 AM | message detail | quote
So, for example, Para might dislike the song in-game, but rather enjoy a live rendition; this, to me, indicates that his problem rests more on the limitations of the software (assuming that the renditions are similar). For me, however, even a fully-orchestrated version of the song wouldn't change the sequence of the notes in the melody, the cheeseball lyrics, or the lacking harmony, so I'd still end up disliking it all the same.

To be fair, part of my enjoyment of the live rendition was a sort of tongue-in-cheek appreciation of the ridiculousness of playing out the opera scene in this way. It was gloriously over the top and it rolled over from being totally lame to genuinely amusing in a way I can't explain at all, even though it was perhaps even more corny than before. That said I just found the song to be more fully-realized with a proper orchestra doing it. Not every song benefits from having an orchestra play it, but this one did. It's still not a great song but it's a better one than I gave it credit for.

Is that in the sense that the BM's arrangement is that much better, or that the BM's arrangement exposes more flaws in the original?

kind of both, AC OWA is really good, and is it's own entity for adding all the over the top rock elements, but it also exposes how bad the psx general midi orchestral samples are very badly

Actually my opinion of One Winged Angel is very similar to my opinion of the opera scene - pushed the limits of the format, didn't work, soundchip wasn't good enough to pull it off and it all comes off as just plain corny

the psx could do streaming audio and could also do a more high definition version of what spcs were doing, kind of like tracker modules...this was more on square's decision to use general MIDI than the psx not being able to handle it, FFVIII and FFIX for instance clearly have much higher sample quality while FFVII was maybe even a step backwards from FFVI in some places

(and FF7's entire soundtrack in general)

Seeing as you and I tend to agree about things, even if it's indirectly, I'd enjoy hearing a more in-depth explanation for this. I'd consider the FF7 score to be stellar all-around.

And let me go on record by saying that this topic has inspired me to seriously reconsider the connection between sound quality and compositional quality. Can they be separated or distinguished? If so, by how much? And how does this impact one's right to judge a song? Thanks for the mental stimulation at 4 in the morning, B8!

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And let me go on record by saying that this topic has inspired me to seriously reconsider the connection between sound quality and compositional quality. Can they be separated or distinguished? If so, by how much? And how does this impact one's right to judge a song? Thanks for the mental stimulation at 4 in the morning, B8!

something I didn't get into before is that technically harmony and timbre are actually very related, any individual instrument has its own harmonic series. harmony is the mathematical relationship of two tones being played, for instance a note at a frequency of 1,000 hertz and a note of 2,000 hertz have a 2:1 relationship, which is an octave, the most consonant of all intervals. building a sound with synthesizers works the same way, any sound will actually have numerous frequencies which are usually mathematically related