I'm honestly not familiar with FF7's soundtrack enough to go in-depth on why it is that I don't like it. I suspect one of the reasons is that FF7 is just not that close to my heart - I actually strongly dislike the game, always have, even though I consider FF6 to be a great RPG. I played about halfway through FF7, and it just didn't stick with me - and neither did its music. Couldn't tell you why, it just didn't speak to me. I could probably go on a nitpicky rant about some things, like the really bizarre timbre of FF7's entire sound library or the way Aeris's theme induces a strong gag reflex in me but I'm not really feeling it.
Advent: One Winged Angel is largely too much of a change to the original for me. It's weird, even with the improvement in quality, I seem to favor versions of OWA that follow more closely to the original, like the Kingdom Hearts version.
Though one of my favorite versions is "The World's Enemy" from the Crisis Core, which kinda chops and screws the song to create something very different. Almost more frantic and discombobulated. Almost like an ADD version of it.
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something I didn't get into before is that technically harmony and timbre are actually very related, any individual instrument has its own harmonic series. harmony is the mathematical relationship of two tones being played, for instance a note at a frequency of 1,000 hertz and a note of 2,000 hertz have a 2:1 relationship, which is an octave, the most consonant of all intervals. building a sound with synthesizers works the same way, any sound will actually have numerous frequencies which are usually mathematically related
Is this kind of harmony the same as what music theory would understand to be "harmony"? Or is it a retroactive explanation for why something like a I-IV-V-I progression sounds so good to human ears?
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And yeah Liquid's killing it on the explanation of why timbre and harmony can't really be separated. When you're writing down notes on a staff, sure, you can take an A and E and go, okay, that's a perfect 5th, it should sound like a perfect 5th sounds. In practice, because every distinct kind of sound has its own series of overtones, the instruments used can affect the character of a song in extremely dramatic ways, even if they're playing the same "notes."
Is this kind of harmony the same as what music theory would understand to be "harmony"
more or less yes except the ratio's in 12TET are actually out of tune so that you can modulate keys, I think the octave is the only interval in western music that is actually in tune IIRC. but the science of "why does this chord sound good" is pretty much the mathematical relationship of frequencies(sound is the way we perceive vibrations in the air)
Liquid Wind | Posted 10/9/2011 2:14:00 AM | message detail | quote more or less yes except the ratio's in 12TET are actually out of tune so that you can modulate keys, I think the octave is the only interval in western music that is actually in tune IIRC
Yeah, the sounds that are actually mathematically "in tune" in nature are different than what we understand in western music. There's nothing natural about western music's 12-tone scale, or any other series of tones any other culture came up with. We just did it that way to space them out evenly into a series of 12 notes. It ends up working well because what we know as a semitone in western music is pretty close to the smallest difference we can reliably detect anyway.
more or less yes except the ratio's in 12TET are actually out of tune so that you can modulate keys, I think the octave is the only interval in western music that is actually in tune IIRC
So let me see if I've got this right: when a group of musicians gets together and plays, say, a Concert C, each instrument's "C note" is actually slightly out-of-harmony thanks to its timbre.
The way I was taught (admittedly in high school, so it's likely watered down) was that different instruments' timbre was due to different construction and materials, i.e. a trumpet sounds different than a flute because it's made out of brass, etc. But apparently, that's not quite the case.
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Yeah, the sounds that are actually mathematically "in tune" in nature are different than what we understand in western music. There's nothing natural about western music's 12-tone scale, or any other series of tones any other culture came up with. We just did it that way to space them out evenly into a series of 12 notes. It ends up working well because what we know as a semitone in western music is pretty close to the smallest difference we can reliably detect anyway.
Yeah, I figured that our Western scales were artificial. Besides, don't Eastern scales delve into quarter-tones and eighth-tones? I know that jazz does some of that as well, so clearly, vanilla Western theory isn't the only way to go.
Given all of this, let me go ahead and restate my original position: my dislike for the Opera scene does not have to do only with the limitations of the technology, as I rather enjoy the rest of the soundtrack. Rather, I maintain that even within those limitations, the melody and harmony are subpar, the lyrics grating, and that a full-fledged orchestra would do little to improve these more fundamental aspects of the song.
Better?
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The way I was taught (admittedly in high school, so it's likely watered down) was that different instruments' timbre was due to different construction and materials, i.e. a trumpet sounds different than a flute because it's made out of brass, etc. But apparently, that's not quite the case.
both are true actually, the materials an instrument is built from will affect the way it vibrates as well as it's shape and so forth, the math relationships of those vibrations just explains why a sound is perceived a certain way, not where it came from
BoshStrikesBack | Posted 10/9/2011 2:17:08 AM | message detail | quote So let me see if I've got this right: when a group of musicians gets together and plays, say, a Concert C, each instrument's "C note" is actually slightly out-of-harmony thanks to its timbre.
Sort of yes and sort of no, but it's good enough to think about it this way. They could all be playing the same C but there will be different overtones, yeah.
The way I was taught (admittedly in high school, so it's likely watered down) was that different instruments' timbre was due to different construction and materials, i.e. a trumpet sounds different than a flute because it's made out of brass, etc. But apparently, that's not quite the case.
No, that's accurate, although I have no idea how brass affects the timbre of an instrument. I don't really know what could affect the timbre of an instrument if it wasn't its shape and construction, so of course that is what makes an instrument sound the way it does.
Also like, yeah, I get what you're saying about the Opera scene not improving with better sound quality. I thought I would feel the same way and then was surprised when I didn't. It's entirely valid to reject a song based on things other than timbre, but at the same time you can't judge a song completely divorced from timbre as well as you would think you can.
you did say you liked the melody though, I still think the lyrics are affecting your perception of it a lot...which admittedly happens with me a lot too, I like a lot of foreign music where I don't understand the words <_<
Lyrical quality in songs is a topic I have a hard time wrestling with too. I don't dislike songs with vocals, but the number of artists who I consider to have masterful control over lyrics is few. I don't work with lyrics myself, so as far as musical topics go it's one I can't speak about with much authority. I do know for sure, though, that the opera scene's lyrics are corny as f***! Maybe that's kind of the point, but if that is, then FF6 isn't playing up the parody angle as much as I'd like, it plays it too straight.
you did say you liked the melody though, I still think the lyrics are affecting your perception of it a lot...which admittedly happens with me a lot too, I like a lot of foreign music where I don't understand the words <_<
At this point, I might just have to bite the bullet and concede this point to you and Para. Part of me feels like my subconscious self just can't get over O MARIIIIAAAA as being some "classic VG moment."
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I wouldn't put it super high up the list myself...been a long time since I played FFVI but I think the floating continent and its immediate aftermath were the high point of the game
lyrics definitely aren't easy to do well, I've taken a crack at it a few times and I wouldn't say any of them are among my favorites...
and although I like FFVII myself I can see where para, or anyone else, could dislike the game if they like square otherwise. FFI-VI and IX and FFVIII and onward are totally different kinds of style and FFVII is the weird turning point that isn't quite in either camp. love it or hate it FFVII is really one of the more unique games square made even though you'd usually not think of saying that, I can't clearly connect it to the rest of the series the way I can say FFVI and FFIV have similarities or FFVIII and FFX. the overplayed amnesiac trope is about as far as it goes
I agree with the first point, but not the second. Real opera music is good stuff, besides, nowadays only the best of it has survived, so the "catering to masses" thing, even if it was true back in the day, is no longer a problem.
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