Board 8 > Ocarina of Time is the worst thing that happened to the Zelda series.

(+) Yeah! (+)

not that it's a bad game or anything, but nintendo's stubborn rehashing of it because of its overwhelming success has stagnated the series and is the reason why WW and TP are so disappointing. most of what is wrong with these two games can be traced to OoT, it's a shame nintendo is so obsessed with OoT rather than also learning from the original zelda, LTTP, LA, and MM...even AoL in some ways shows a design conception that is superior to recent zelda games.

k

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But when Zelda CD-I exists this just can't be true

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the CD-i games didn't influence future games and cause the series to go into a decade long slump

even before oot most zelda games were mediocre

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LIES. LTTP, LA, OoT, MM, oracles is one of the best runs any series has ever gone on, it's just been mediocre since then due to a combination of fans getting too crazed over OoT which wasn't really any better than any of those games, and nintendo being too conservative and entirely content to rehash the same thing over and over as long as people buy it.

la and oot are good, the rest you named are mediocre.

deal with it.

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la and oot are good, the rest you named are mediocre.

OoT is probably the worst game in that list

Liquid Wind posted...
LIES. LTTP, LA, OoT, MM, oracles is one of the best runs any series has ever gone on, it's just been mediocre since then due to a combination of fans getting too crazed over OoT which wasn't really any better than any of those games, and nintendo being too conservative and entirely content to rehash the same thing over and over as long as people buy it.

Well these "rehashes" are always better than Ocarina of Time so whatever.

I can agree that Twilight Princess (and Brawl) was WAY too conservative. It's like...they mix the best parts of the N64 Zelda games, and then they forget to update the presentation. Blah. Literally the one thing preventing Twilight Princess from being top tier in my eyes.

But if Wind Waker was an Ocarina of Time rehash, I would not like it as much. Obviously it is not. The Zelda name means nothing to me in regards to Wind Waker or A Link to the Past being the only top tier games in the series so far (Skyward Sword looks like it could join them if it doesn't botch its motion controls, but I said the same about Other M last year and look what happened...and SS so far generally has LESS hype to pour salt on the wounds - best not to bet on Nintendo this time!).

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Well these "rehashes" are always better than Ocarina of Time so whatever.

not going to debate this one way or the other, but these rehashes have also been consistently inferior to LTTP, LA, and MM, the series is stuck as a result of the OoT obsession

they mix the best parts of the N64 Zelda games

no, they take some elements(not even necessarily the best elements) of OoT, they've pretty much tried to pretend MM doesn't exist. skyward sword actually appears to be the first game taking any influence from MM at all

None of them have been better than A Link to the Past, but The Wind Waker would have been the best game in the series if it weren't for THE MOST STUPID ENDGAME FETCHQUEST IN THE HISTORY OF GAMING. Although the game's atmosphere prevents it from being too bad.

MM and TP both have a similar dark tone to me. Oh well, to me right now TP represents the best a Zelda game can be without relying on much else but the franchise's "name".

That being said, a TP-like Zelda game with HD graphics and orchestral music (and likely also minimal voice acting) would basically be top-tier for me.

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wind waker in a nutshell

worst dungeons in 3D zelda
worst overworld in 3D zelda
worst characters in 3D zelda barring ganondorf
worst difficulty in 3D zelda
worst sense of aesthetics in 3D zelda
worst link in any (canonical) zelda

game of the ever mirite

I have literally seen this topic five times before, probably by the same guy.

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From: Liquid Wind | #011
skyward sword actually appears to be the first game taking any influence from MM at all

The Oracles took some cues from MM, I think. It definitely took a lot of characters from it, at any rate.

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From: GANON1025 | #014
I have literally seen this topic five times before, probably by the same guy.

while he doesnt always makes topics he does complain about the zelda series A LOT

one of his obsession

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it's a subject of interest here, and I mostly praise LTTP, LA, OoT, MM, and oracles. it's not like I dislike the series, it's just that it hasn't been that good in the past decade

Liquid Wind posted...
wind waker in a nutshell

worst dungeons in 3D zelda
worst overworld in 3D zelda
worst characters in 3D zelda barring ganondorf
worst difficulty in 3D zelda
worst sense of aesthetics in 3D zelda
worst link in any (canonical) zelda

game of the ever mirite

Aside from the difficulty part, this all sounds FAR more like Ocarina of Time to me, and both games are pretty much even there.

Problem is, you're another one of those people who holds at least three pre-GameCube Zelda titles in such high esteem, and those people tend to view the franchise's more recent entries as being trash in comparison (or the most likely alternative, they're Zelda drones, yuck). I'm sorry to say this Liquid Wind, but you pretty much exemplify why I think the Zelda fanbase is the worst VG-related fanbase ever - because they're either drones or people who think that the series is "dead" from Wind Waker onwards. As I've said, the only games in the franchise that are top tier in my eyes are A Link to the Past and The Wind Waker, and I could care less about the franchise they come from.

Also Link is boring for me unless he's cartoon-rendered.

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watching lms trying to be condescending is pretty funny, i must say

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Liquid Wind posted...
it's a subject of interest here, and I mostly praise LTTP, LA, OoT, MM, and oracles. it's not like I dislike the series, it's just that it hasn't been that good in the past decade

As I've said many, many times, the Zelda series has been better in the past decade than it has ever been, but it was not as good as a lot of series fans say their beloved '90s were to the franchise.

Worth noting is that my expectations were sky high for OoT, MM, and LttP, while they were far lower for WW and TP. But LttP is still my favorite in the series so meh.

Sorry but your beloved Legend of Zelda franchise was never at all close to being as good as you guys say. Worst fanbase ever and most overrated franchise ever all in one, and I cannot even see Call of Duty or Halo dethroning it.

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As I've said many, many times, the Zelda series has been better in the past decade than it has ever been, but it was not as good as a lot of series fans say their beloved '90s were to the franchise.

you also started playing like a year ago and your complaints literally amount to OOT HAS 1998 GRAPHICS, derp

TWW is a great game and not an OoT rehash. You just don't "get" TWW.

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And for that matter I don't at all dislike the Zelda series either (I mean, RIGHT NOW it has to be my favorite series aside from Mario, although that's far more due to a lack of exposure than anything else - I can already see both Final Fantasy and Metal Gear dethroning it for me).

It's just that the franchise was never as good as a lot of B8'ers say it was in the '90s, and then those people also say the franchise sucked in the '00s when it was actually better, but still not all that good.

Generally the problem that people like Ulti and Liquid Wind have with The Wind Waker is that it "proved that Nintendo can slap the name of a huge franchise onto complete crap and have said pile of crap receive monster critical and commercial reception anyway". Well, I'm a huge fan of Wind Waker, and I don't care that it's a Zelda game. Not one bit. Same with A Link to the Past, really.

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From: LinkMarioSamus | #019
As I've said many, many times, the Zelda series has been better in the past decade than it has ever been, but it was not as good as a lot of series fans say their beloved '90s were to the franchise.

Worth noting is that my expectations were sky high for OoT, MM, and LttP, while they were far lower for WW and TP. But LttP is still my favorite in the series so meh.

Sorry but your beloved Legend of Zelda franchise was never at all close to being as good as you guys say. Worst fanbase ever and most overrated franchise ever all in one, and I cannot even see Call of Duty or Halo dethroning it.

It's pretty cute when people mistake personal truths for universal truths. At least, in my opinion.

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my criticism of WW is very different from ulti's and I wholly disagree with him that WW was nintendo's turning point. the DS is what proved to be a metamorphosis for them, as they found out that they sell much more units by focusing on hardware gimmicks instead of creating high quality software

Liquid Wind posted...
As I've said many, many times, the Zelda series has been better in the past decade than it has ever been, but it was not as good as a lot of series fans say their beloved '90s were to the franchise.

you also started playing like a year ago and your complaints literally amount to OOT HAS 1998 GRAPHICS, derp

At the very least, do not suppose that I can't appreciate older games. It's not even necessarily the N64 era I have issues with (Mario 64 and StarCraft are top-tier) - it's more the fact of the matter that because the Zelda franchise sticks so closely to the same formula in comparison to something like Mario or Final Fantasy, OoT's appeal gets killed off for me. I still enjoy it a lot but dear god, it's not at all deserving of being the consensus best game ever!

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the original Zelda game is still the best in the series :D

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Liquid Wind posted...
my criticism of WW is very different from ulti's and I wholly disagree with him that WW was nintendo's turning point. the DS is what proved to be a metamorphosis for them, as they found out that they sell much more units by focusing on hardware gimmicks instead of creating high quality software

At least Nintendo can still produce high quality software though. Last year Nintendo made its best game since 1994, for instance!

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OoT is, if you're being generous, maybe the fifth or sixth best game in its own series, so I agree with you there but...mario isn't formulaic? mario's success stems from the fact that they have a very good formula and they stick with it, with the core series at least.

the original Zelda game is still the best in the series :D

conceptually it does have a lot going for it that most other zelda games have missed on, at the very least the newer zelda games do need a serious infusion of "it's dangerous to go alone!"

At least Nintendo can still produce high quality software though. Last year Nintendo made its best game since 1994, for instance!

metroid prime was the last great nintendo game and I almost don't want to count it because retro is an acquired studio, EAD3 hasn't had a great game since 2000

If Mario is formulaic, it's about as formulaic as Final Fantasy seems to be.

Only the genre and universe stay the same between games - otherwise I feel there are significant differences between each individual Mario platformer. For instance, I don't feel that the Mario Galaxies dilute each others' appeal much at all.

Anyway, Mario is the only franchise where the very name is enough to make me keep a serious eye on anything in the series (I kinda expect FF and MGS to follow, though).

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LinkMarioSamus posted...
Liquid Wind posted...
wind waker in a nutshell

worst dungeons in 3D zelda
worst overworld in 3D zelda
worst characters in 3D zelda barring ganondorf
worst difficulty in 3D zelda
worst sense of aesthetics in 3D zelda
worst link in any (canonical) zelda

game of the ever mirite

Aside from the difficulty part, this all sounds FAR more like Ocarina of Time to me, and both games are pretty much even there.

Problem is, you're another one of those people who holds at least three pre-GameCube Zelda titles in such high esteem, and those people tend to view the franchise's more recent entries as being trash in comparison (or the most likely alternative, they're Zelda drones, yuck). I'm sorry to say this Liquid Wind, but you pretty much exemplify why I think the Zelda fanbase is the worst VG-related fanbase ever - because they're either drones or people who think that the series is "dead" from Wind Waker onwards. As I've said, the only games in the franchise that are top tier in my eyes are A Link to the Past and The Wind Waker, and I could care less about the franchise they come from.

Also Link is boring for me unless he's cartoon-rendered.

... wait, you think OoT's overworld is worse than Wind Waker's? I don't mind the rest of your comment's too much, but the OVERWORLD?

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There have been three Nintendo games better than Metroid Prime since then: Wind Waker and both Mario Galaxies.

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And yes I'm serious about the overworld, although I just prefer the water setting to Ocarina's grasslands (plus again, WW has a far superior atmosphere).

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I played Twilight Princess for the first time last week and had fun. I don't have serious business LoZ opinions, but I've played a handful of them.

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I am untracking and leaving this topic right now. Goodbye.

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cute ninja edit, wouldn't have caught it if not for SZ

I'm not *that* much of a zelda fan, at it's best I liked metroid more, and I'd consider myself a bigger fan of MGS, TES, final fantasy before sakaguchi was canned and enix made matsumoto rage quit, and team ICO's games. zelda is far from my favorite series, although it probably is the best thing nintendo had going for them for a while. I tend to talk about zelda a lot on this board because this is nintendo 8, it generates the most discussion by far

I am untracking and leaving this topic right now. Goodbye.

YES

Look at this guy, so desperate for attention that he had to argue with LMS.

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I'll debate anything with anyone unless I'm 100% sure they're an alt/being facetious. I'm not so pathetic that I can't handle discussing things with people I disagree with or so much of an elitist dick that I consider certain people just not on my level and not worth conversing with. I honestly feel bad for people like you.

Well this was a pretty good read.

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LMS is right. Or, he would be right if he weren't so bad at arguing. Dammit.

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I agree with Liquid Wind to a point.

Zelda fans care way too much about OoT. Not that the game wasn't special, or good, but there seems to be this belief that if it doesn't feel like OoT, it was a mistake. Majora's Mask is a dark horse favorite with a lot of fans, but in general it doesn't get a lot of praise. Wind Waker is a fine game, and I will defend that opinion all day every day, but people lost their s*** over something as trivial as a change in art direction. Twilight Princess, however, probably emulated OoT more than any game that's ever existed within the series and outside of it, and it was regarded so highly pre-release that people flipped out over it getting a "great" score at Gamespot instead of the coveted perfect. With nothing to go on except that it walks and talks like OoT.

There has been some deviation from the formula, though, but like I said, the fans didn't accept anything that wasn't like their favorite game. Even then, they had a lot in common with OoT, they just weren't carbon copies.

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He clearly can't be right, he liked SAAAAAAAAAAAAAILING after all~!

Biolizard28 posted...
I agree with Liquid Wind to a point.

Zelda fans care way too much about OoT. Not that the game wasn't special, or good, but there seems to be this belief that if it doesn't feel like OoT, it was a mistake. Majora's Mask is a dark horse favorite with a lot of fans, but in general it doesn't get a lot of praise. Wind Waker is a fine game, and I will defend that opinion all day every day, but people lost their s*** over something as trivial as a change in art direction. Twilight Princess, however, probably emulated OoT more than any game that's ever existed within the series and outside of it, and it was regarded so highly pre-release that people flipped out over it getting a "great" score at Gamespot instead of the coveted perfect. With nothing to go on except that it walks and talks like OoT.

There has been some deviation from the formula, though, but like I said, the fans didn't accept anything that wasn't like their favorite game. Even then, they had a lot in common with OoT, they just weren't carbon copies.

... TP is far from the only game to incite rage over the 8.8, though.

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There's always hope for better things in life. But you can't let anything, friend, lover, God himself, be your hope. You have to be your own hope.

LMS actually thinks WW dungeons > OoT dungeons.

Well, at least I know why I have him on ignore!

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Wind Waker is a fine game, and I will defend that opinion all day every day, but people lost their s*** over something as trivial as a change in art direction

I don't have a problem with them changing the art direction(skyward sword looks great), but I don't like the art direction they used in that game

that being said WW is just an average game in my mind anyway, it's not just the aesthetics

They had no reason to believe, after how much venom they spit at Wind Waker, that Twilight Princess would be anywhere near OoT's level.

And they still exploded because a game that resembles OoT didn't get a perfect score.

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Well to be fair, all WW dungeons > Water Temple.

Even having the iron boots as an item select only made it slightly more tolerable.

Hell, I could see WW dungeons > Young Link Dungeons.

So I think it's mainly Forest, Fire, Shadow, and Spirit up for debate (and Ganondorf's Tower if you REALLY want to count it).

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Well to be fair, all WW dungeons > Water Temple.

no.

not even in the N64/GC/VC release where you had to go to the menu for the boots

WW dungeons are about on par with the childhood dungeons though

the earth temple was ****ing awesome though!

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Still doesn't change the repetitive and tedious work of constantly changing the water levels.

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