Board 8 > AoD 973: Opinions can be wrong.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Agree

Denom this:
Dragon Quest VIII is the only amazing game in the series (Nom: Real Truth, Ulti)

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Yeah. It's kinda irrelevant what we actually perceive when we see blue, anyway. If in reality you're seeing what I see as red when you look at a blue thing, it doesn't much matter because our perception doesn't change what it actually is, that certain wavelength on the visible light spectrum.

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i mean, you could make a case that blue is red and red is blue, but that only works in certain machinima series >_>

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Only there is no way to tell if I like blue because it's blue or if I just choose to like it. Again, it can't be supported by anything but itself. Liking something is subjective. That I like something (in this case blue) is a fact, but you can not use that as a supporting argument for itself.

Lets say I see a girl I think is attractive. But maybe someone else does not. You can not simply use "Fact: Does not meet his standards" since the standards being set are subjective in the first place. It's the same problem with an argument that is only supported by itself.

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Chrono1219

So then, chrono, would the opinion that 'an argument can be supported only by itself' be wrong?

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There are facts about the physiology or personality or whatever of the girl that you do and don't find appealing. The fact here isn't that you like redheads. The fact here is that the girl has red hair. The opinion is that you find that attractive.

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From: SovietOmega | #255
So then, chrono, would the opinion that 'an argument can be supported only by itself' be wrong?

No, because it's an opinion. However, the statement can be.

Anyways. I'm too tired to continue atm. It's clear that the issue is an interpretation problem and I don't feel like continuing, as interesting as this is.

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Chrono1219

What if I were of the opinion that you were not too tired to continue atm? As has been pointed out, the law of non-contradiction would be violated..

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That does not work because now your making an

I'm not playing this game.

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Chrono1219

Well I certainly know I'm of the opinion that he's making an excuse to run away from the argument !

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I have satelite internet. This is literally the only time I have to watch anime and use waffles and such.

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Chrono1219

Well I guess I'm wrong then.

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Unless you are wrong about being wrong, in which case you would then be wrong about being wrong about being wrong...

and now the word wrong is sounding all wrong to me. Damn repeatability of words XD

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Sexcellent day today.

Agree, of course. Can you imagine that there are people who literally believe oot is the best game of all time?

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Agree

Most of sciences is just opinions of people backed by evidence which is later proven or unproven.

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What... Disagree of course.

Unless you're talking about different beliefs of facts as opinions.

"I believe God exists" isn't an opinion. It's a declaration that you are accepting a proposed fact as true.

Disagree. I don't get the "professional/scientific opinions can be wrong" statement. Those are assumptions, not opinions. If I say "it's going to rain tomorrow" and tomorrow it's not raining, that doesn't mean "my opinion was proved wrong." It means I made a wrong assumption.

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Assumption: A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof: "they made certain assumptions about the market"

Opinion:A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Sounds pretty similar to me.

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Brawl is like ZSS' breasts. Well rounded for casual players.
http://i53.tinypic.com/28sxzzr.jpg

Disagree.

It's all about wrong interpretations of what opinions really are.

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Google the internet for "I'm not racist but.". Chances are the second part of the sentence will show that their opinion about themselves is incorrect.

Agree.

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metroid composite posted...
Google the internet for "I'm not racist but.". Chances are the second part of the sentence will show that their opinion about themselves is incorrect.

Agree.

Again, if you really want to interpret the question this way, then it becomes "things that people think can be wrong".

And that's not really a game I think anyone feels like playing.

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~ Team Tilde, director

Agree, definitely

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This hurts my head. "Things that people think" and "opinions" seem like the same thing to me.....

I will disagree. There can be however be BAD opinions though. And boy have I seen my share.

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This is the truth based on our english language.

There are two types of statements:
Positive Statements are statements about facts. Views about what is.
Normative Statements are statements about what should be. Opinions.

Normative statements cannot be wrong or right. They have no physical basis by which to be confirmed true or false. They merely reflect what an individual feels about the world.

To agree that normative statements can be right or wrong, is incorrect.

pjbasis posted...
This is the truth based on our english language.

There are two types of statements:
Positive Statements are statements about facts. Views about what is.
Normative Statements are statements about what should be. Opinions.

Normative statements cannot be wrong or right. They have no physical basis by which to be confirmed true or false. They merely reflect what an individual feels about the world.

To agree that normative statements can be right or wrong, is incorrect.

Very good.

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~ Team Tilde, director

Yeah, this is a matter of semantics. If you think the statement "the sky is purple" is a "wrong opinion," then yes, opinions can be wrong. I personally think "factually wrong statement" is a more adequate description.

Edit: So basically what pjbasis said.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...
Yeah, this is a matter of semantics. If you think the statement "the sky is purple" is a "wrong opinion," then yes, opinions can be wrong. I personally think "factually wrong statement" is a more adequate description.

I'd like to get the point across however that we are warping the use of the word "opinion."

The statement "the sky is purple" is not an opinion. End of story.
That statement concerns what is, not what ought to be.

Edit: ok lol

I'd like to get the point across however that we are warping the use of the word "opinion."

The statement "the sky is purple" is not an opinion. End of story.
That statement concerns what is, not what you ought to be.

True. I was trying to say the "wrong opinion" thing can only exist if we use a definition of "opinion" that's not the common definition.

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Full rap metal jacket ~ Method Man

Normative statements cannot be wrong or right. They have no physical basis by which to be confirmed true or false. They merely reflect what an individual feels about the world.

To agree that normative statements can be right or wrong, is incorrect.

In other words, morality is relative. deep bro

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agree


opnions are based on facts and can be wrong if incorrectly interpreted

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Agree.

pjbasis posted...
There are two types of statements:
Positive Statements are statements about facts. Views about what is.
Normative Statements are statements about what should be. Opinions.

You appear to be speaking grammatically, and I don't agree.

If I say "Final Fantasy Tactics is the best game ever" that's a positive statement--a view about something that is. And yet it is also indisputably an opinion.

If a doctor says "If your HIV tests come back negative then you should be in the clear" that's a normative statement. And yet it's really a statement of fact.

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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision

Agree.

in my opinion big rigs over the road racing has better graphix than Uncharted 3

...Agree

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metroid composite posted...
pjbasis posted...
There are two types of statements:
Positive Statements are statements about facts. Views about what is.
Normative Statements are statements about what should be. Opinions.

You appear to be speaking grammatically, and I don't agree.

If I say "Final Fantasy Tactics is the best game ever" that's a positive statement--a view about something that is. And yet it is also indisputably an opinion.

If a doctor says "If your HIV tests come back negative then you should be in the clear" that's a normative statement. And yet it's really a statement of fact.

You should look it up, my definitions aren't really sufficient.

"FFT is the best game ever" is really just a way of saying that you "approve" of FFT or that you you like FFT the best. There is no physical quality that makes it "the best".
Now now, I know in art we all try to carve out objective guidelines as to what makes good art good, but in the end it's really just an agreement because as humans we all generally like the same thing. Which is different from real concrete properties.

The second statement is just misleading because of poor word choice. The word "should" being used here isn't a view of how the world ought to be but of simple cause and effect.

tl;dr Don't get hung up on word choice. It's the meaning that counts.

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

I'm tired.

Disagree.

In the true definition of the word, opinions can't be wrong. Just because people are idiots and say "objective fact is not a fact, at least in my opinion", doesn't mean that their opinion is wrong, it means they are an idiot and do not understand what an opinion is.

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Aecioo posted...
Disagree.

In the true definition of the word, opinions can't be wrong. Just because people are idiots and say "objective fact is not a fact, at least in my opinion", doesn't mean that their opinion is wrong, it means they are an idiot and do not understand what an opinion is.

This.

Hooooly s*** guys.

Disagree

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in my opinion big rigs over the road racing has better graphix than Uncharted 3

...Agree

Would you say someone who thinks Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing is more pleasant to look at than Uncharted 3 is objectively wrong?

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WVl posted...
metroid composite posted...
Google the internet for "I'm not racist but.". Chances are the second part of the sentence will show that their opinion about themselves is incorrect.

Again, if you really want to interpret the question this way, then it becomes "things that people think can be wrong".

Actually no: I chose my example carefully.

I'm avoiding "scientific fact" and looking at "societal fact" because it is relative. Picture a man who thinks it's not sexist to slap a woman's ass as she walks past. Maybe he even comes from a hometown where this holds true--where it's a show of respect and admiration. Or maybe he was raised in the 50s and did not adjust his perspective as society changed around him. He really has the opinion that he's not being sexist. And this is a subjective opinion in the same way that "Animaniacs is a great show" is a subjective opinion. There's no scientific way to analyze something like that, and different people will have different responses.

But unlike an opinion about a movie, he can be wrong, because it's not his perspective that matters, it's the women he's slapping whose perspective matters; society around him can and will judge his actions. And the reverse can also happen, where someone worries that what they just did was sexist, but nobody was actually offended.

Or if you want to dive into the theoretical underpinnings, I'm using postmodernism rather than the scientific method. If you're familiar with Godel's Theory of Incompleteness, it states that any logical system must be either incomplete or inconsistent. I'm going with a system that is inconsistent--which is to say logical systems where something can be both true and false at the same time. In such systems, it is possible for something to be all four of Opinion, Fact, Wrong, and Right simultaneously. Which is to say, yes: opinions can be wrong (while also simultaneously being right!)

But if you want to provide me a completely objective never inconsistent way of determining whether something is sexist--where the sexism in a situation is always provably true or false, then please, be my guest. As both a feminist and a mathematician, I would love to see it.

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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision

Um. No thank you?

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~ Team Tilde, director

Now now, I know in art we all try to carve out objective guidelines as to what makes good art good, but in the end it's really just an agreement because as humans we all generally like the same thing. Which is different from real concrete properties.

This is why I dislike the words "art" and "literature" - they imply that we can measure what's "objectively good." I think "art" would work best as an umbrella term for paintings, music, sculpture, etc. This is why I think video games are art as well. Some people who object to this argue that it broadens the scope of "art" too much ("does this mean the sandwich I ate today is art too?!"), but I don't think this is the case because games usually combine elements of other art forms (visual art, music).

IIRC, Roger Ebert's counterargument to games being art was basically "they're never as OBJECTIVELY GOOD as... whatever examples he used." Of course he later admitted he didn't know enough about games to be talking about them in the first place, so that's water under the bridge, but the reasoning he applied was all wrong to begin with.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...
This is why I dislike the words "art" and "literature" - they imply that we can measure what's "objectively good." I think "art" would work best as an umbrella term for paintings, music, sculpture, etc. This is why I think video games are art as well. Some people who object to this argue that it broadens the scope of "art" too much ("does this mean the sandwich I ate today is art too?!"), but I don't think this is the case because games usually combine elements of other art forms (visual art, music).

IIRC, Roger Ebert's counterargument to games being art was basically "they're never as OBJECTIVELY GOOD as... whatever examples he used." Of course he later admitted he didn't know enough about games to be talking about them in the first place, so that's water under the bridge, but the reasoning he applied was all wrong to begin with.

Here, let me catch you up to speed on the debate, because it's actually evolved quite a bit beyond Ebert's unintentional trolling:

http://www.ludix.com/moriarty/apology.html

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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision

Ebert responded, "I believe books and films are better mediums, and better uses of my time. But how can I say that when I admit I am unfamiliar with video games? Because I have recently seen classic films by Fassbinder, Ozu, Herzog, Scorsese and Kurosawa, and have recently read novels by Dickens, Cormac McCarthy, Bellow, Nabokov and Hugo, and if there were video games in the same league, someone somewhere who was familiar with the best work in all three mediums would have made a convincing argument in their defense."

I've only just started reading that article, but this is a horrible logical fallacy (unfortunately, this isn't the first time I've seen it). "Nobody has come up with a good counterargument, so that means I'm right." No, it does not.

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I agree, because opinions attempt to refute fact at times

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agree

Also I just realized.

My opinion is that opinions can be wrong.

People saying they can't are now paradox'd.

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...Agree, and close?

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Well, opinions can be factually wrong, but they can't be wrong as in they reflect what you feel. For example: "I think Ermine wouldn't be eaten by a Zapdos". Ermine is then eaten by a Zapdos. My opinion was wrong, but it was still right in the sense it was what I thought. It's true that I felt that way. So... I guess the answer is "depends on the perspective"? Seeing as the topic title doesn't specify, then yes, I suppose I agree.

Can you imagine that there are people who literally believe oot is the best game of all time?
Yes, I can, as it's a fact people think this. No need to imagine it. Wait... OR IS IT AN OPINION!?!?! whoamg whoamg breaking the system right herrrreeee

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