Poll of the Day > So what are all the vegans gonna do if we discover that plants can feel pain?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Just die I guess?

yeah just die I think unless they eat dirt or something

Eat more plants, while they are alive muahahhaha!!

be like the vegetarians who eat fish, because it "doesn't count"

Either die or accept that one must consume life in some form to live (its already true, but they don't want to accept it)

Muscles posted...

Either die or accept that one must consume life in some form to live (its already true, but they don't want to accept it)

You mean sentient life? I'm sure most vegans already understand that plants are alive.

Probably point out that trophic levels are a thing and an order of magnitude or two more plants die to produce a pound of meat than die to produce a pound of plant-based food. Sometimes even more, depending on how many steps are involved (tuna's ~4 steps up on the chain, for example, so you get roughly 1/10000th the calories from eating it that you'd get if you could hypothetically eat the same mass of the phytoplankton that form the root of the chain). Even if plants suffer (and there's really no reason to believe that they don't, given that pretty much all of them have chemical responses to injury), veganism still results in less overall suffering than omnivory.

adjl posted...

veganism still results in less overall suffering than omnivory.

What about eggs, dairy, and honey, though? Never understood that aspect of veganism.

I understand the abuses inherent in large, industrial farming operations, but if you source responsibly and locally, why aren't those aforementioned foods accepted as cruelty-free?

For that matter, what about aging animals? Or culling animal populations? Would it be okay to eat meat under certain conditions?

Veganism is still more efficient and sustainable. There's not just one reason that people become vegan, tbh. The suffering one is just the most common reason given.

What do you mean if? Pretty sure we already found equivalent (albeit rudimentary) systems.

Ignore it just like they ignore any other facts that go against their cult

Conner4REAL posted...

Ignore it just like they ignore any other facts that go against their cult

Can you name a specific "fact that goes against their cult?"

SmugRickMoranis posted...

What about eggs, dairy, and honey, though? Never understood that aspect of veganism.

I understand the abuses inherent in large, industrial farming operations, but if you source responsibly and locally, why aren't those aforementioned foods accepted as cruelty-free?

Some of it's just a principled objection to the whole exploitation angle, a big part of it is recognizing that it's impossible for small, cruelty-free egg/dairy farms to meet the world's demand for those products (so even if they personally stick to responsible sourcing, they're still contributing to total demand that has to result in unnecessary suffering), you've still got the issue of trophic levels making them less efficient and requiring more overall loss of life... There are enough other factors that I can understand taking it a step further than just "I'll avoid supporting cruelty-heavy corporate dairy farms."

Honey, on the other hand, is an issue that vegans are pretty divided on. It retains the whole exploitation thing, so some people object on that basis, and there are many beekeepers that aren't particularly kind to their bees, but there are also many that do take good care of them, and the honey we collect is an excess that they produce naturally. Bees are also extremely ecologically important and are struggling to survive naturally, so farming them is of significant benefit to the environment (unlike pretty much all other farming) and many feel that justifies exploiting them for honey.

SmugRickMoranis posted...

For that matter, what about aging animals?

By and large, animals that are dying of old age don't produce good meat. It may be more morally acceptable, but if the resultant meat isn't worth eating, it's a moot point.

SmugRickMoranis posted...

Or culling animal populations?

Some would argue that culls shouldn't need to happen in the first place because population issues like that are overwhelmingly caused by human interference. Others would say it's okay, because whether or not they should need to happen, they do. Deriving some benefit from the cull is therefore making the best of a bad situation.

SmugRickMoranis posted...

Would it be okay to eat meat under certain conditions?

A lot of vegetarians/vegans do, actually. As much as people tend to think of both as being totally exclusive of all meat/animal products, it's quite common for people to just mostly eliminate them from their diets, consuming a greatly reduced amount and/or making sure they're sourced as responsibly as possible when they do. You get a lot of people saying "I could never be a vegetarian because I couldn't live without bacon" or whatever, but you can very easily cut down on the amount of meat you have and still enjoy some bacon. It doesn't have to be an absolute thing at all. Questions of vegetarianism aside, Americans could generally stand to do that, since the average American diet includes quite a bit more meat than is reasonable or healthy, but American culture (especially American masculinity) tends to balk at that idea.

adjl posted...

By and large, animals that are dying of old age don't produce good meat.

For the record, I'm dying of old age and I still produce good meat. Just ask @Sarcasthma 's mom

Stardew Valley is a murder simulator.

carnists have one joke

It would make salads taste better.

Revelation34 posted...

Stardew Valley is a murder simulator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM

I am not going to give up my ride-on lawnmowers. Theyre too fun.

I thought they already found something like that.

SmugRickMoranis posted...

What about eggs, dairy, and honey, though? Never understood that aspect of veganism.

They normally say that since its an animal byproduct were taking from the animal, its bad

I don't know but I'll enjoy watching while eating a Bacon sandwich.

LinkPizza posted...

I thought they already found something like that.

Whether or not it's "pain" is up for debate, since plants don't have "nervous systems" in the usual sense, but most plants exhibit some kind of systemic chemical response to injury, which can regulate healing, scarring responses, or influence how the plant grows. Fundamentally, that's all that pain is, so making a distinction between that response and what we call pain is really just being anthropocentric about it.

Time to eat dirt+rocks they are definitely not living things.

SmugRickMoranis posted...

What about eggs, dairy, and honey, though? Never understood that aspect of veganism.

I understand the abuses inherent in large, industrial farming operations, but if you source responsibly and locally, why aren't those aforementioned foods accepted as cruelty-free?

For that matter, what about aging animals? Or culling animal populations? Would it be okay to eat meat under certain conditions?

The process of collecting that stuff can be pretty rough on the animals, a dairy farm that produces tons of dairy a year is not an old man walking around collecting milk by hand. It's a giant machine that sucks the cows dry automatically, and 1000's of cows in small compartments that can barely move.

It's not that they think it's "killing cows" doing it but that it's not the best environment for that. I have a feeling some might eat dairy if they know they are getting it without what they deem is cruelty.

Monopoman posted...

a dairy farm that produces tons of dairy a year is not an old man walking around collecting milk by hand. It's a giant machine that sucks the cows dry automatically, and 1000's of cows in small compartments that can barely move

I acknowledged this in the very post you quoted:

SmugRickMoranis posted...

I understand the abuses inherent in large, industrial farming operations, but if you source responsibly and locally, why aren't those aforementioned foods accepted as cruelty-free?

We get most of our eggs and some of our milk from my wife's aunt, who has a small family-owned farm. Our honey is from a woman just a couple miles from our house. We've visited her operation

We do buy our cheese and butter (and ice cream) from the store, however. It is all local and allegedly "cruelty-free" but I'll be completely honest we haven't looked into it much beyond what we read online.

I feel like tbh if the roles of cows and humans were swapped wed just be like chickens or pigs to them, so if anything we are defending ourselves

SmugRickMoranis posted...

For the record, I'm dying of old age and I still produce good meat. Just ask @Sarcasthma 's mom

Your meat's prison-grade, dude.
@SmugRickMoranis

SmugRickMoranis posted...

I acknowledged this in the very post you quoted:

We get most of our eggs and some of our milk from my wife's aunt, who has a small family-owned farm. Our honey is from a woman just a couple miles from our house. We've visited her operation

We do buy our cheese and butter (and ice cream) from the store, however. It is all local and allegedly "cruelty-free" but I'll be completely honest we haven't looked into it much beyond what we read online.

Well in the case of chicken you can claim a chicken was raised in an open range facility if you just have a small fenced area outside of the facility where they live. The problem is the modern chicken designed for butchering is not like a typical chicken we think of, they barely move. So really you could leave the door wide open with no fencing and 99% of them wouldn't even try leaving.

They don't even bother keeping them in cages typically because of how little the move around on average.

Just like the feminists; act like it never happened and rehash the same bs for decades.

Sarcasthma posted...

Your meat's prison-grade, dude.
@SmugRickMoranis

Well just because it's leathery and has a strange odor doesn't mean it can't get the job done

I vaguely recall it already being confirmed that they do feel pain; or at least something similar.

Edit: They DO feel stimuli and they DO react to being damaged, but they don't feel 'pain', least not how we're used to.

Unbridled9 posted...

Edit: They DO feel stimuli and they DO react to being damaged, but they don't feel 'pain', least not how we're used to.

There's no difference philosophically. We don't treat burns as pain but cuts as not pain; they're triggered by different stimuli but both are recognised as pain.

Y'know how onions make you cry?

That's the plant trying to say "don't eat me plz"

Pain is a sense, not a reaction.

Pain is not the same as mental anguish though

I'm not vegan or even vegetarian just FYI

GanonsSpirit posted...

Pain is a sense, not a reaction.

Existence is pain

Zedonra posted...

Pain is not the same as mental anguish though

I'm not vegan or even vegetarian just FYI

What does that have to do with anything?

Interesting how they care about only using "cruelty-free" products, but don't consider that many vegan-friendly products are created in processes that cause cruelty to the humans producing them.

Zareth posted...

Interesting how they care about only using "cruelty-free" products, but don't consider that many vegan-friendly products are created in processes that cause cruelty to the humans producing them.

Uhh, quite a few do. Plenty more do not, particularly those that are vegan for the sake of chasing diet fads and aren't actually interested in becoming more conscientious consumers, but those that are trying tend to also consider working conditions for humans.

Zareth posted...

Interesting how they care about only using "cruelty-free" products, but don't consider that many vegan-friendly products are created in processes that cause cruelty to the humans producing them.

Humans suck

Thought about this a bit more; I was half-asleep when I made my first post in this topic. I should preface this by stating that I am not a vegan, just to be clear.

It's worth pointing out that many plants specifically evolved to be eaten- that being eaten is, oddly, how they sustain themselves. This is basically the only reason that fruit as a whole exists at all. As such, even if the TC's question was the case, I suppose the ethics of it would vary on a plant by plant basis.

SmugRickMoranis posted...

What about eggs, dairy, and honey, though? Never understood that aspect of veganism.

Milk comes from pregnant/parent animals, so in order to produce and take in appropriate quantities, it all but necessitates rather vicious treatment of the animals in question, including violence against the offspring and sexual abuse of the milk producing animal. Fairly easy to understand the moral objections there. *shrug* Going off on a tangent, people who scream about soy milk having phytoestrogen in it is hilarious if you remember that, you know, animal milk has ANIMAL estrogen in it, lol.

Eggs... I shit you not, the first argument I heard against eggs was one of the worst arguments for not eating any animal product I have ever heard. Was literally "They're bird periods. Isn't that gross?! Why would you want to eat that?! That's gross!" The better argument is that it results in male birds being slaughtered en masse (as does milk production, btw).

As for honey... this is far more complicated, tbh. Right now bee populations are in rapid decline, and from what little I understand, commercial bee-keeping is actually harming native bee populations, but this seems to easily be the most odd issue. I think the best argument against honey off the top of my head would simply be that we have alternatives that are pretty damn good, and there doesn't seem to be much reason to use honey when you could use something not produced by animals, but... this is definitely the one you mentioned I know the least about.