Poll of the Day > If you haven't already heard, Trump's own administration is working against him.

(+) Yeah! (+)

80/80

The New York Times published an anonymous opinion piece from a "Senior White House Official" that claims that they do whatever they can to reign in Trump's destructive impulses and steer the country on the right course.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html

Honestly, this pisses me off, even as someone who is no fan of Trump. This is every bit as tacitly dishonest and flagrantly undemocratic as anything Trump's ever done. Yes, he's an idiot. Yes, there's no way he has the competency to actually be president and he could very well cause untold damage above and beyond what he's already doing in spite of his aides' apparent "resistance." But undermining him is even worse, because it means America is effectively being run by an unelected cabal with no oversight and no transparency.

If senior officials have come to the conclusion that Trump is incapable of effectively discharging his duties as president due to incompetence, they have a means to rectify that: it's called the 25th amendment. If they are unwilling to resort to that, then they should either resign or faithfully carry out the duties they have been assigned. Pretending that all is well while quietly running a puppet show behind the scenes is the stuff of banana republics and autocracies trying to keep up a thin veneer of legitimacy.
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This was published after excerpts from a new book by an award winning journist were released earlier this week. Yet another book detailing the chaos in the white house, but far more credible than the other two already out there.

Republicans are trying to distance themselves from Trump as much as possible before he goes down. They are going to try and cast themselves as the heroes who held America together in a time of crisis.
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Blighboy posted...

They are going to try and cast themselves as the heroes who held America together in a time of crisis.

A crisis that they precipitated and made no real efforts to stop.
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Based on some of the language used people are speculating this was written by Pence

That would be absolutely hilarious if true
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I think it's more likely somebody pretending to be Pence.

Regardless, its somebody who is very much hoping this will end in a Pence presidency. Pence himself is definitely a Republican and not a red cap.
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I will say, I still had a good laugh at Trump's response.

"This is totally fake and not real and the New York Times made it up (but also they should hand over their made up source because national security!)"
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My biggest fear around all of this is that there really is a group trying to drag him down and it's not just someone posing as a cabinet member and that if they're successful, it'll just make shit worse. I don't trust any high-level politician of any background to do anything purely in the name of justice or good intention. This sounds more like extreme petty and bitterness towards "my terrible dad who doesn't let me stay up late."

I get that there could be people working under the POTUS who are very upset with how things are going, but this just seems so backhanded and passive aggressive that I have to doubt it's truly based in good faith. And maybe it really is and they have some plan in place which would be positive.

Bless them for protecting us.
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darkknight109 posted...

America is effectively being run by an unelected cabal with no oversight and no transparency

Ding ding ding! I love seeing everyone wake up. This is exactly why I don't bother voting.
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darkknight109 posted...

I will say, I still had a good laugh at Trump's response.

"This is totally fake and not real and the New York Times made it up (but also they should hand over their made up source because national security!)"

What really gets me about that piece of monumental stupidity is his total disregard of the existence and intention of the 1st Amendment. I mean, honestly... it's the very first part of the US Constitution: that the government does not have the right to shut down people speaking out who disagree with it or its actions, nor do individuals representing that government. Even whistle-blowers from inside their own administration have legally guaranteed freedom of speech. It's like he's never even heard of "freedom of the press" or "free speech" - but then, who believes he knows what they mean anyway?

P.S. How many Americans here are aware that "trump" in the UK has been, for decades at least, childhood slang for "fart"?
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But the stock market up
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Trialia posted...

mean, honestly... it's the very first part of the US Constitution

actually near the end but whatever.
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RedPixel posted...

darkknight109 posted...

America is effectively being run by an unelected cabal with no oversight and no transparency

Ding ding ding! I love seeing everyone wake up. This is exactly why I don't bother voting.

This is a hilariously skewed misrepresentation of what I said and what's actually going on.
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darkknight109 posted...

The New York Times published an anonymous opinion piece from a "Senior White House Official" that claims that they do whatever they can to reign in Trump's destructive impulses and steer the country on the right course.

The problem is that, given the NYT's history, I honestly have serious reservations that the claim is legitimate. As others have noted, this is a completely unprecedented move which has followed a string of unprecedented NYT decisions, all built around a political bias and quite possible designed to destabilize the administration.
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Part of me was hoping that his behavior throughout the campaign was him putting on a show, and when elected he would shape up, but no, if anything he got worse. I have no idea how the fuck anyone still supports him.
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Zeus posted...

quite possible designed to destabilize the administration.

I think the administration is perfectly capable of doing that themselves.
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Cacciato posted...

Zeus posted...

quite possible designed to destabilize the administration.

I think the administration is perfectly capable of doing that themselves.

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I have thought for a while that we're going through a real-life version of Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest.

Hopefully that won't include the military going ahead with a war just so Trump can be humiliated after it's been won.

Zeus posted...

darkknight109 posted...

The New York Times published an anonymous opinion piece from a "Senior White House Official" that claims that they do whatever they can to reign in Trump's destructive impulses and steer the country on the right course.

The problem is that, given the NYT's history, I honestly have serious reservations that the claim is legitimate. As others have noted, this is a completely unprecedented move which has followed a string of unprecedented NYT decisions, all built around a political bias and quite possible designed to destabilize the administration.

So odd that a Left Leaning Centrist only ever seems to point out bias on the liberal side of the spectrum
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papercup posted...

Part of me was hoping that his behavior throughout the campaign was him putting on a show, and when elected he would shape up, but no, if anything he got worse. I have no idea how the fuck anyone still supports him.

Cognitive dissonance.
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Aides and officials are literally there to make sure all presidents dont blow the planet up.
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Mead posted...

So odd that a Left Leaning Centrist only ever seems to point out bias on the liberal side of the spectrum

To be fair, that's the side of the spectrum about 90% of the bias is coming from on this board.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Mead posted...

So odd that a Left Leaning Centrist only ever seems to point out bias on the liberal side of the spectrum

To be fair, that's the side of the spectrum about 90% of the bias is coming from on this board.

Reality has a liberal bias.
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darkknight109 posted...

Reality has a liberal bias.

Yes, liberals do indeed believe that.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Reality has a liberal bias.

Yes, liberals do indeed believe that.

Mostly because it's true, at least if right-wing ranting is to be believed.

I mean, look at Zeus's post up there. He "has serious doubts" this is actually happening despite the fact that it lines up with countless other stories - some with names attached to them, some not - coming out of the administration, most recently in the "Fear" book that's been hitting the headlines lately.
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EvilMegas posted...

Aides and officials are literally there to make sure all presidents dont blow the planet up.

By convincing him to abandon bad ideas and policies, yes - not by committing insubordination, hiding documents from him and flat out ignoring orders.
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The idea that the NYT completely fabricated this is beyond absurd. It would be worse than anything even Fox News has gotten away with. Given that this is so big, the truth is going to come out even if it's ten or more years from now, and it would end the NYT. There's no reason for them to destroy themselves to print something that is ultimately just corroborating previous reports.

The accusation that this is due to a liberal bias is even more ignorant because this is something that entirely benefits Republicans. It's a message to the traditional Republican base before midterms. "Keep voting Republican because Trump is controlled"

That's not to say everything in the article is true, just that the source is probably legitimate. I would not be even a little surprised if he was lying out of his ass, either to exaggerate his own role in the administration, or to exaggerate the amount of control that was being exerted over Trump's actions.
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Blighboy posted...

I would not be even a little surprised if he was lying out of his ass, either to exaggerate his own role in the administration, or to exaggerate the amount of control that was being exerted over Trump's actions.

NYT says they know who the guy is, so presumably his role in the administration isn't being exaggerated. It is entirely possible he's lying about how much control is actually exerted on Trump, though this story corroborates remarkably well with Woodward's book.
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I dont doubt his actual position, I just meant in terms of how much the writer is actually doing within the administration. He presents himself as one of the leaders of the resistance but I wouldn't be surprised if he were just aware of its existence.
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darkknight109 posted...

EvilMegas posted...

Aides and officials are literally there to make sure all presidents dont blow the planet up.

By convincing him to abandon bad ideas and policies, yes - not by committing insubordination, hiding documents from him and flat out ignoring orders.

So you'd rather them follow orders and doom us all? That's dumb. Dont be dumb.
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The biggest impediment to Trump is Trump himself
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darkknight109 posted...

But undermining him is even worse, because it means America is effectively being run by an unelected cabal with no oversight and no transparency.

I disagree. Trump chose these people to be in his cabinet and staff. They weren't directly elected to office, but they were put there indirectly by the voters.
And their job is to serve the country, not serve Trump.

I kind of would prefer to just let Trump have his way so things go to absolute shit and voters learn their lesson. But I have zero confidence that most Trump voters will ever learn their lesson, no matter what he may do.

Blighboy posted...

I would not be even a little surprised if he was lying out of his ass, either to exaggerate his own role in the administration, or to exaggerate the amount of control that was being exerted over Trump's actions.

Or maybe Trump himself had someone in his cabinet pretend to be disloyal and provide this information, and it's all a false flag operation to lull his detractors into thinking he's under control. Maybe he even did it to pin the blame on someone he wants to get rid of but can't w/o a good reason, like Jeff Sessions.
:p

EvilMegas posted...

darkknight109 posted...

EvilMegas posted...

Aides and officials are literally there to make sure all presidents dont blow the planet up.

By convincing him to abandon bad ideas and policies, yes - not by committing insubordination, hiding documents from him and flat out ignoring orders.

So you'd rather them follow orders and doom us all? That's dumb. Dont be dumb.

I would rather them do what the fuck they're supposed to do if confronted by a blazingly incompetent moron who somehow got into the White House: invoke the 25th amendment and get someone who has more than two brain cells to bang together in charge.

You're acting like the only two options are "let US burn" or "quietly subvert presidency". As it turns out, the constitution had already anticipated this exact situation and has a solution ready to go - the aides just don't want to use it because it would have dire political ramifications for their party. But their first loyalty is supposed to be to the country, not the party.

streamofthesky posted...

I disagree. Trump chose these people to be in his cabinet and staff

Exactly - he chose them to be cabinet staff. Notably, he did not choose them to be shadow presidents, because he does not have the authority to do that; only the people have the authority to select the president and they should have a reasonable expectation that, absent illness, death, or incapacitation, their wishes in that regard be respected.
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Fair. I think he's actually mentally handicapped and luck plus his father's money is all that got him this far. You have to be dumb or corrupt to support him.

I'm not using that phrase in place of an insult, mods, I sincerely believe he has a medical problem affecting his brain's performance.
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darkknight109 posted...

streamofthesky posted...

I disagree. Trump chose these people to be in his cabinet and staff

Exactly - he chose them to be cabinet staff. Notably, he did not choose them to be shadow presidents, because he does not have the authority to do that; only the people have the authority to select the president and they should have a reasonable expectation that, absent illness, death, or incapacitation, their wishes in that regard be respected.

He chose them to head areas such as Justice, Defense, and so on. They're supposed to be working to help those departments fulfill their mission to the best of their abilities.
So if the Secretary of State hides the nuclear launch codes from Trump so he can't "get back at" Kim Jong Un for calling him a bad name, for example...that's totally within their job duties.

streamofthesky posted...

darkknight109 posted...

streamofthesky posted...

I disagree. Trump chose these people to be in his cabinet and staff

Exactly - he chose them to be cabinet staff. Notably, he did not choose them to be shadow presidents, because he does not have the authority to do that; only the people have the authority to select the president and they should have a reasonable expectation that, absent illness, death, or incapacitation, their wishes in that regard be respected.

He chose them to head areas such as Justice, Defense, and so on. They're supposed to be working to help those departments fulfill their mission to the best of their abilities.
So if the Secretary of State hides the nuclear launch codes from Trump so he can't "get back at" Kim Jong Un for calling him a bad name, for example...that's totally within their job duties.

Put it this way: if you have two choices and one of them is "prevent an absolute catastrophe by interfering with the president's ability to do their job", that is an excellent indicator that the person currently occupying the office of president should not have that job.

Part of cabinet's job duties is to be a check on the president and to remove him if he proves incapable of doing his job; not to do that job for him if he's too stupid to do it himself. You are correct that the SoS should be protecting the US from Trump's idiocy if lives are at stake - you're just wrong about the method by which he should be doing that.
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darkknight109 posted...

80/80

The New York Times published an anonymous opinion piece from a "Senior White House Official" that claims that they do whatever they can to reign in Trump's destructive impulses and steer the country on the right course.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html

Honestly, this pisses me off, even as someone who is no fan of Trump. This is every bit as tacitly dishonest and flagrantly undemocratic as anything Trump's ever done. Yes, he's an idiot. Yes, there's no way he has the competency to actually be president and he could very well cause untold damage above and beyond what he's already doing in spite of his aides' apparent "resistance." But undermining him is even worse, because it means America is effectively being run by an unelected cabal with no oversight and no transparency.

If senior officials have come to the conclusion that Trump is incapable of effectively discharging his duties as president due to incompetence, they have a means to rectify that: it's called the 25th amendment. If they are unwilling to resort to that, then they should either resign or faithfully carry out the duties they have been assigned. Pretending that all is well while quietly running a puppet show behind the scenes is the stuff of banana republics and autocracies trying to keep up a thin veneer of legitimacy.

No, I think you're exaggerating what's going on. The POTUS office actually lacks the power that popular imagination thinks it has. It's not the case that Trump is the one who calls all the shots and that Congress and the Supreme Court have to stand by and agree with everything he says. So when they undermine him, that's actually democratic... not undemocratic.
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Mead posted...

Zeus posted...

darkknight109 posted...

The New York Times published an anonymous opinion piece from a "Senior White House Official" that claims that they do whatever they can to reign in Trump's destructive impulses and steer the country on the right course.

The problem is that, given the NYT's history, I honestly have serious reservations that the claim is legitimate. As others have noted, this is a completely unprecedented move which has followed a string of unprecedented NYT decisions, all built around a political bias and quite possible designed to destabilize the administration.

So odd that a Left Leaning Centrist only ever seems to point out bias on the liberal side of the spectrum

O rly? Is it odd that on a forum where nobody is citing or sourcing conservative outlets that a poster would point out bias found in the leftist media being used? That's like bitching that somebody isn't devoting equal time to talking about spiders when their home is infested with termites and there isn't a spider to be found.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Mead posted...

So odd that a Left Leaning Centrist only ever seems to point out bias on the liberal side of the spectrum

To be fair, that's the side of the spectrum about 90% of the bias is coming from on this board.

darkknight109 posted...

Reality has a liberal bias.

Academics and journalists are overwhelmingly liberal which means that most things get a liberal spin on them.
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darkknight109 posted...

I mean, look at Zeus's post up there. He "has serious doubts" this is actually happening despite the fact that it lines up with countless other stories - some with names attached to them, some not - coming out of the administration, most recently in the "Fear" book that's been hitting the headlines lately.

...you mean from people also in on the rib? You see the problem there, don't you? And when you have a media which prints claims without any care for veracity so long as it advances their agenda, you have a pretty serious problem on your hands. And if you have no faith in media malfeasance, you clearly haven't paid much attention to history.

Blighboy posted...

Given that this is so big, the truth is going to come out even if it's ten or more years from now, and it would end the NYT.

lolwut? Kinda like when the NYT ended when it was revealed that Jayson Blair was outright making shit up... oh wait, he just got fired and the paper went on as usual.

Blighboy posted...

The accusation that this is due to a liberal bias is even more ignorant because this is something that entirely benefits Republicans. It's a message to the traditional Republican base before midterms. "Keep voting Republican because Trump is controlled"

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Zeus posted...

lolwut? Kinda like when the NYT ended when it was revealed that Jayson Blair was outright making shit up... oh wait, he just got fired and the paper went on as usual.

Zeus winning the false equivalency Olympics again

None of that is even close in scale to what's happening now

Zeus posted...

Please explain how Republican damage control for something that's been extensively reported on for two years is a lib conspiracy
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Mead posted...

So odd that a Left Leaning Centrist only ever seems to point out bias on the liberal side of the spectrum

To be fair, that's the side of the spectrum about 90% of the bias is coming from on this board.

Cause that side is better than the other one
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Blighboy posted...

Zeus winning the false equivalency Olympics again

None of that is even close in scale to what's happening now

...so a Pulitzer-winning editor who had been fabricating stories for years and whose outing was a major embarrassment for the paper isn't close in scale?

Bligh winning the ignorance Olympics again.

Blighboy posted...

Please explain how Republican damage control for something that's been extensively reported on for two years is a lib conspiracy

So you think that this entire thing is a Republican conspiracy?
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I think it's a centrist conspiracy.
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HelIWithoutSin posted...

I think it's a centrist conspiracy.

There are no centrists in the White House.
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shadowsword87 posted...

HelIWithoutSin posted...

I think it's a centrist conspiracy.

There are no centrists in the White House.

That's fake news.
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HelIWithoutSin posted...

I think it's a centrist conspiracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ws_APXilE" data-time="
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Zeus posted...

So you think that this entire thing is a Republican conspiracy?

It's not a conspiracy if they openly confess to it.

Zeus posted...

...so a Pulitzer-winning editor who had been fabricating stories for years and whose outing was a major embarrassment for the paper isn't close in scale?

When compared to the accusation that, and I must stress this here, the entire mainstream media and numerous government security agencies are all lying and the only one telling the truth is a known pathological liar who cannot string a sentence together?

No the scale isn't close. But you can't see that because Moscow gives you a little book of counter examples to reference with no need for context or nuance.

You have never tried to assess an individual story and can only speak in broad universal truths about mass conspiracies, meaning you can't support an argument any better than you can shit twenty feet upwind.
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jramirez23 posted...

No, I think you're exaggerating what's going on. The POTUS office actually lacks the power that popular imagination thinks it has. It's not the case that Trump is the one who calls all the shots and that Congress and the Supreme Court have to stand by and agree with everything he says. So when they undermine him, that's actually democratic... not undemocratic.

I think you might want to do your homework on this a bit more because no one is talking about Congress or the Supreme Court (who should arguably be undermining him a lot more than they are).

Zeus posted...

Academics and journalists are overwhelmingly liberal which means that most things get a liberal spin on them.

Play the ref all you like, it doesn't make this sentiment any closer to being true.

Zeus posted...

...you mean from people also in on the rib? You see the problem there, don't you?

Of course - how could I have not seen it? Two separate sources - respectively one of the world's most respected and successful news outlets and the guy who fucking broke Watergate and is one of the most well-respected journalists ever - clearly both put decades of credibility on the line in order to make a bunch of shit up. That is a completely reasonable assertion and obviously not bat-shit-bonkers.

Fuck me, this may be the dumbest thing I've seen you post here. You've said some ridiculous things in the past, but I thought conspiracy theories were below you.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

Fair. I think he's actually mentally handicapped and luck plus his father's money is all that got him this far. You have to be dumb or corrupt to support him.

I'm not using that phrase in place of an insult, mods, I sincerely believe he has a medical problem affecting his brain's performance.

Honestly, I genuinely believe he may be in the early stages of dementia. His age combined with his poor physical health and his frantic attempts to cover up the latter, plus how often he seems to lose the thread of a speech or conversation... they're all red flags. My stepmother is a carer and has worked with people with dementia quite a lot, and I've seen it happen to several of my elder relatives when they were near the end. Trump has some very concerning symptoms. And while he's always been an arse, his speech wasn't nearly so incoherent 20 years ago.

I'd almost pity him, tbh, if it weren't for the danger he's causing to the entire world by refusing to admit his problems in the position he's in. I'm just glad some of his admin seem to be taking precautions between him and the nuclear football.
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Blighboy posted...

It's not a conspiracy if they openly confess to it.

Blighboy posted...

When compared to the accusation that, and I must stress this here, the entire mainstream media and numerous government security agencies are all lying and the only one telling the truth is a known pathological liar who cannot string a sentence together?

When compared to the history that, and I must stress this here, we have *literal* historical examples *repeatedly* throughout history of the media outright lying about stories and politicians being in on it, dating back to the *founding* of our nation. Nor does it need to be a coordinated effort any more than you coordinate your lies with other posters here. You buy into some and then you add your own to the mix. And before you try to once again defend this, keep in mind that there have been a preponderance of fake and/or misleading stories.

Blighboy posted...

You have never tried to assess an individual story

What is this, another one of your flat-out lie days?
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