Board 8 > Star Wars topic revival - The Last Jedi is now in our hands

(+) Yeah! (+)

Just bought the blu-ray yesterday and watched all the cool bonus features. I'll post my thoughts about 'em later, first I'll just say that Rian Johnson has become one of my favorite directors ever and I'm so fucking stoked he got a whole trilogy of Star Wars films to work on.

So how's the general opinion of this movie now that there's been a few months to mull it over?
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Still love the movie and will defend it to the death. Know a few people who hated it.

So many of the criticisms are a bunch of hot garbage which makes it frustrating to discuss sometimes. I've got no time for the gender politics bullshit, for instance, or this stuff about Rian Johnson secretly hating the franchise, or the Mary Sue stuff
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I've decided that I consider it on par with a Marvel movie and that's why I initially felt so disappointed. Also, combining that with my interest in watching more serialized television, I felt that the rushed nature of the film causes the stakes to feel minimal overall. But that's just in comparison with modern TV, so I think I've been judging it a little too harshly.

That said, I think there were universe-shrinking decisions made in this film, and for a series that really should pride itself on expansive world-building, that was the biggest reason I still can't say I like the film.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Still love the movie and will defend it to the death. Know a few people who hated it.

So many of the criticisms are a bunch of hot garbage which makes it frustrating to discuss sometimes. I've got no time for the gender politics bullshit, for instance, or this stuff about Rian Johnson secretly hating the franchise, or the Mary Sue stuff

I think handwaving a lot of the criticisms is garbage. I mean, I can appreciate someone who says yeah that is a valid criticism but you gotta turn your mind off to stuff like that or so on. Or I know that exists but it didn't bother me much or I still enjoyed it despite it etc.

Acting like they simply are not true because you like the film is garbage!
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you can't defend that it's still the same old shit just different characters
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The film being bad because women are competent and tend to make the right calls and sometimes even, gasp, teach the men a thing or two is absolutely a garbage criticism that I have no time for
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This movie is still awesome
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XIII_rocks posted...

The film being bad because women are competent and tend to make the right calls and sometimes even, gasp, teach the men a thing or two is absolutely a garbage criticism that I have no time for

You said "so many". Not one.
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Yea I fuck with it
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KingBartz posted...

you can't defend that it's still the same old shit just different characters

Are you familiar with serialized storytelling?
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XIII_rocks posted...

Rian Johnson secretly hating the franchise

Never heard this but it's pretty apparent from watching the director documentary that he truly loves Star Wars. Unless he's also a really good actor.
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AquaArcane posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

Rian Johnson secretly hating the franchise

Never heard this but it's pretty apparent from watching the director documentary that he really loves Star Wars. Unless he's also a really good actor.

The criticism is that he went off the cuff. He trashed the outline for the trilogy that jj Adams based the first movie around and that he displayed luke in a way that wasn't consistent with his character from the OT without reasonable explanation.
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So what was JJ's reason for having Luke on the island then
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The problem with your post is the use of "true". We're talking subjective here. It's just some of them are total bullshit that I have no problem with completely disregarding. I'm as free to blow off their opinions as they are to have them.

But yeah that's the inherent difficulty with discussing this movie - did they dislike it for insane, conspiratorial or political reasons, or for reasons that don't say more about you than the movie itself?
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AquaArcane posted...

So what was JJ's reason for having Luke on the island then

We do not know. Rian torched the outline with his movie. Since JJ is back for the 3rd, the question is if he will undo what Rian did to continue his vision, continue Rians vision, or take it even somewhere else new.

He obviously had much bigger plans for the Knights of Ren, Snoke, and Rey's parentage.
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XIII_rocks posted...

The problem with your post is the use of "true". We're talking subjective here. It's just some of them are total bullshit that I have no problem with completely disregarding. I'm as free to blow off their opinions as they are to have them.

But yeah that's the inherent difficulty with discussing this movie - did they dislike it for insane, conspiratorial or political reasons, or for reasons that don't say more about you than the movie itself?

Like, when I say the lightspeed ramming is universe breaking how do you respond?

It is a valid criticism.
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Corrik posted...

He obviously had much bigger plans for the Knights of Ren, Snoke, and Rey's parentage.

Luckily, I think if JJ wanted Rey to have different parentage, it's pretty easy to backpedal and say that Kylo was just playing mind games. The rest of this whole situation, however, is hard to undo. I think it would be interesting, if Snoke had a bigger role in the next film, to use flashback sequences for the first time in a Star Wars film. That's a possible out.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

He obviously had much bigger plans for the Knights of Ren, Snoke, and Rey's parentage.

Luckily, I think if JJ wanted Rey to have different parentage, it's pretty easy to backpedal and say that Kylo was just playing mind games. The rest of this whole situation, however, is hard to undo. I think it would be interesting, if Snoke had a bigger role in the next film, to use flashback sequences for the first time in a Star Wars film. That's a possible out.

Well, if he tries to course project back to his original idea. Rey's parentage will change. Snoke will return as he knows how to cheat death with his powers.

If neither of these happen, then he probably took where Rian went and didn't try to fix it.

We can only tell by what episode 9 contains.
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Sure, absolutely. And I guess there's no reason to assume he doesn't like where it went! Disney must, given that they handed the keys to another trilogy to Johnson.
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Episode 8 was fantastic
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Sure, absolutely. And I guess there's no reason to assume he doesn't like where it went! Disney must, given that they handed the keys to another trilogy to Johnson.

There is way too much movement going on with people being handed keys to star wars films lately. I will be interested to see if all these rumors pan out or not.
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What is out there? I know we've got another standalone, the last of this trilogy, a Johnson trilogy, a Jon Favreau show and the Game of Thrones trilogy. Admittedly that's a lot on paper.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

What is out there? I know we've got another standalone, the last of this trilogy, a Johnson trilogy, a Jon Favreau show and the Game of Thrones trilogy. Admittedly that's a lot on paper.

What you just said. That is extremely a lot. Then the obi wan movie rumor. And a couple of other character rumors also like boba Fett. It is getting crowded up in here.
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That flying Leia scene is still weird.
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Have they said if they are planning to do more than one movie a year?
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Love the film.
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Love this movie, probably my favorite in the series. There are valid criticisms but none that really matter to me (dur hur lightspeed ram hurts canon Star Wars space physics. Fuck off, nobody cares). After the mediocre Rogue One and the snoozefest Force Awakens, it was a huge surprise.

Solo is gonna suck.
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LapisLazuli posted...

Fuck off, nobody cares

Well you obviously care enough to insult the people who supposedly do care!
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I mean it possibly does. It also very possibly doesn't, and we're not given all the information so you can literally just choose whether it does or it doesn't. So you're making the choice to criticise at that point. And even if you did genuinely think it does, why would you ever give a fuck. It's a contrived justification for hating the movie, a mountain out of a molehill.

Nobody actually hates it because of that, it's the kind of bs you come up with after the fact to justify your existing hate. This is what I'm talking about when I talk about handwaveable criticisms. It's such a minute, surface thing to make a big deal out of.
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There's just nothing I could imagine giving a fuck about less than "physics of the Star Wars universe", especially after Disney wiped the EU clean.

If you have legitimate problem with the movie then talk about them, not that shit. It's the kind of thing where whining about it makes me take your criticisms less seriously.
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See, that's the kind of attitude that makes me dislike people on this board. If a criticism is valid to someone, it's valid. Saying someone is "whining" or assuming they have other problems with a film is removing the validity of their statement and assuming that your own self-entitled opinions have more validity. They do not. Neither do mine. But I think there is a certain level of etiquette where you can say, "I disagree with your opinion on that issue" or simply not say anything at all that this board lacks. It's just a simple social self-awareness. It's one thing to say, "Hey this movie fucking sucks," and another to say, "Your opinion fucking sucks."
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XIII_rocks posted...

I mean it possibly does. It also very possibly doesn't, and we're not given all the information so you can literally just choose whether it does or it doesn't. So you're making the choice to criticise at that point. And even if you did genuinely think it does, why would you ever give a fuck. It's a contrived justification for hating the movie, a mountain out of a molehill.

Nobody actually hates it because of that, it's the kind of bs you come up with after the fact to justify your existing hate. This is what I'm talking about when I talk about handwaveable criticisms. It's such a minute, surface thing to make a big deal out of.

Um, no. That was the biggest criticism of the entire movie and one many star wars faithful had right away.

Universe breaking details is not a minute, surface thing fabricated to hate a movie.
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Why don't they just use lightspeed kamikaze ship attacks all the time?
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I think there are valid criticisms of the movie but they did not affect my enjoyment. I still think the movie is great, top tier star wars movie.
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I won't take every opinion at face value, sorry. Especially when you can tell the true motivations behind the criticism. If someone says the movie sucked because the lightspeed ramming thing broke the physics of the universe, that person is choosing to dislike the movie and they're probably layering that one on after the fact.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Nobody actually hates it because of that,

You would be surprised by how nuts some people can be.
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I enjoyed the movie. But Holdo refusing to tell anyone about her plan was completely stupid. And I wasn't a fan of how Luke and Snoke were handled, but I suspect IX will fix that.

And a minor gripe, but no one lost an arm. That was a fun tradition in the middle movie of a Star Wars trilogy I was hoping would continue.
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Grand Kirby posted...

Why don't they just use lightspeed kamikaze ship attacks all the time?

End of discussion right there.

This is why it was not well thought.

Immediately in that scene, which is beautifully shot, you say to yourself.. "wait what the fuck... Why didn't they do that at endor? Or anywhere else for that matter?"

It is universe breaking and is a HUGE issue.
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I will 100% agree with the Holdo problem, I really hate stuff like that in stories. I kind of get why it happened (can't risk spies), but it was still frustrating.
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Corrik posted...

Um, no. That was the biggest criticism of the entire movie and one many star wars faithful had right away.

Universe breaking details is not a minute, surface thing fabricated to hate a movie.

But it's only universe breaking if you want it to be.

We lack the necessary information to make the factual call, so if you really want to make the argument that it is, go ahead, but that's exactly what it is - an argument. It's not a fact, we're not dealing in 2+2 here. You think it's universe-breaking.

So why shoot yourself in the foot? Why fight tooth and nail, claw desperately to prove that it's universe breaking, to try and convince other people? Because you don't want to like the movie. You're choosing negativity, and worse, choosing to spread negativity, when the alternative option exists. All to stubbornly justify your own dislike rather than changing your mind.

And that's without even getting into the most salient point of, again, why would you ever give a fuck
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I mean, there are valid criticisms that can be made that you can handwave as incompetency. Like, why didn't they kill the defenseless ship with snubfighters. Or why didn't they warp ahead of the ship to cut it off. Or how did they not see ships repeatedly with their sensors. Why did she leave to personally suicide the ship and not have a Droid do it. Why did he have a broken lightsaber that Kylo would know was not legit.

Those can all be argued to "incompetency".

Arguing the universe breaking lightspeed ramming, clear break of direction from the first film, Leia scene, and the Finn subplot were not valid criticisms is beyond fair. They all are absolutely valid.
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XIII_rocks posted...

So why shoot yourself in the foot? Why fight tooth and nail, claw desperately to prove that it's universe breaking, to try and convince other people?

Corrik posted...
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XIII_rocks posted...

Corrik posted...

Um, no. That was the biggest criticism of the entire movie and one many star wars faithful had right away.

Universe breaking details is not a minute, surface thing fabricated to hate a movie.

But it's only universe breaking if you want it to be.

We lack the necessary information to make the factual call, so if you really want to make the argument that it is, go ahead, but that's exactly what it is - an argument. It's not a fact, we're not dealing in 2+2 here. You think it's universe-breaking.

So why shoot yourself in the foot? Why fight tooth and nail, claw desperately to prove that it's universe breaking, to try and convince other people? Because you don't want to like the movie. You're choosing negativity, and worse, choosing to spread negativity, when the alternative option exists. All to stubbornly justify your own dislike rather than changing your mind.

And that's without even getting into the most salient point of, again, why would you ever give a fuck

What?

Your post doesn't make sense...?
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XIII_rocks posted...

I won't take every opinion at face value, sorry. Especially when you can tell the true motivations behind the criticism. If someone says the movie sucked because the lightspeed ramming thing broke the physics of the universe, that person is choosing to dislike the movie and they're probably layering that one on after the fact.

To me, this is actually placing your own worldview on other people and in effect dismissing huge swaths of arguments simply because you believe they couldn't possibly be the real reason someone dislikes a movie.

For example, I cannot stand that Marvel kills villains in their movies. I can't. It ruins the entire universe for me. And yet I'm constantly told, "Hey you just hate Marvel and love DC," when it's clearly not entirely true. I follow comic writers, and more of them go to DC and write the stuff I enjoy. I want Marvel to succeed. I'm glad it does. And yet, when I discuss these things with my comic shop's customers, they are quick to dismiss my points of view.

My point is, it's almost a level of intellectual bigotry to assume that there are veiled motivations in a criticism of a movie.
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That's not even close, scarlet.

The lightspeed ramming issue is like saying a Fast & the Furious movie is ruined because "in reality, that car shouldn't be able to catch up with the other car in a high speed chase!"
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StifledSilence posted...

I enjoyed the movie. But Holdo refusing to tell anyone about her plan was completely stupid.

Yeah see this I actually get. It's a genuine problem and a clear contrivance from the writers

LapisLazuli posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

Nobody actually hates it because of that,

You would be surprised by how nuts some people can be.

But that's what I'm saying - people don't think the movie sucks because of that, they came out not liking it for other reasons (character stuff like how they handled Luke, not liking Holdo, etc) and then used it later to bolster their argument against the movie.

Similar: friend of mine arguing that because of the directors changing, they might make Rey's parentage different to what it was revealed as in TLJ and therefore the reveal is stupid, irrelevant garbage. My counter: it makes sense that Kylo would lie and trick her in that situation, so you're basically looking for a meta-criticism rather than treating the movies on their own terms.
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LapisLazuli posted...

That's not even close, scarlet.

The lightspeed ramming issue is like saying a Fast & the Furious movie is ruined because "in reality, that car shouldn't be able to catch up with the other car in a high speed chase!"

If you established it couldn't in every single instance beforehand, then yes. That is the point of universe breaking.

No one is arguing realism. We are arguing that it is established that it was not a viable option in all previous Canon because they would have done it in ample situations if it were possible.
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XIII_rocks posted...

StifledSilence posted...

I enjoyed the movie. But Holdo refusing to tell anyone about her plan was completely stupid.

Yeah see this I actually get. It's a genuine problem and a clear contrivance from the writers

LapisLazuli posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

Nobody actually hates it because of that,

You would be surprised by how nuts some people can be.

But that's what I'm saying - people don't think the movie sucks because of that, they came out not liking it for other reasons (character stuff like how they handled Luke, not liking Holdo, etc) and then used it later to bolster their argument against the movie.

Similar: friend of mine arguing that because of the directors changing, they might make Rey's parentage different to what it was revealed as in TLJ and therefore the reveal is stupid, irrelevant garbage. My counter: it makes sense that Kylo would lie and trick her in that situation, so you're basically looking for a meta-criticism rather than treating the movies on their own terms.

So wait. You are arguing no one can dislike the movie for reasons other than you agree with or they are making them up to bolster their argument?

What world do you live in??? That is an insane way of thinking.
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Corrik posted...

Grand Kirby posted...

Why don't they just use lightspeed kamikaze ship attacks all the time?

End of discussion right there.

This is why it was not well thought.

Immediately in that scene, which is beautifully shot, you say to yourself.. "wait what the fuck... Why didn't they do that at endor? Or anywhere else for that matter?"

It is universe breaking and is a HUGE issue.

How is it a HUGE issue though?

Would you rather someone write some sort of deus ex machina that magically prevents lightspeed kamikazes? If you think about it, the concept has always been possible, but it relies on someone being willing to commit suicide while using a massive, expensive ship.
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Corrik posted...

What?

Your post doesn't make sense...?

Read it again then
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