Board 8 > Star Wars topic revival - The Last Jedi is now in our hands

(+) Yeah! (+)

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Also isn't a box-office drop between 1st and 2nd movie a tradition for Star Wars trilogies? Hell, haven't recently Marvel movies not done as good business as their predecessors?

Factually and utterly inaccurate. Black Panther is the highest grossing Marvel film ever domestically and #3 worldwide. The rest of the movies all vary on position and none of them have been remotely close to unsuccessful. The closest would be Ant-Man and Incredibly Hulk based off of studio goals, but Ant-Man was very sucessful still and Hulk did net gains.
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why don't they make light-speed missiles
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Inviso posted...

I just strongly disagree with the lightspeed ram criticism because it was cool and I don't think it's even remotely "world-breaking", and I do feel like it's overpushed (much like Leia's space flight) as a negative to heap negative criticism onto the film.

oh, i dunno. i think it's just easier to get people to respond to something silly like the light-speed technology than to engage on more complex topics

like how in the last page i talked about how episode 8's message is "nothing matters, let the past die and watch cool fights and fight forever"
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scarletspeed7 posted...

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Also isn't a box-office drop between 1st and 2nd movie a tradition for Star Wars trilogies? Hell, haven't recently Marvel movies not done as good business as their predecessors?

Factually and utterly inaccurate. Black Panther is the highest grossing Marvel film ever domestically and #3 worldwide. The rest of the movies all vary on position and none of them have been remotely close to unsuccessful. The closest would be Ant-Man and Incredibly Hulk based off of studio goals, but Ant-Man was very sucessful still and Hulk did net gains.

I think he means in direct sequels.

Like Ultron did worse than avengers.
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banananor posted...

why don't they make light-speed missiles

Well if you launch a missile while at hyperspeed, doesn't it continue to travel at hyperspeed plus the launch speed?
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Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Also isn't a box-office drop between 1st and 2nd movie a tradition for Star Wars trilogies? Hell, haven't recently Marvel movies not done as good business as their predecessors?

Factually and utterly inaccurate. Black Panther is the highest grossing Marvel film ever domestically and #3 worldwide. The rest of the movies all vary on position and none of them have been remotely close to unsuccessful. The closest would be Ant-Man and Incredibly Hulk based off of studio goals, but Ant-Man was very sucessful still and Hulk did net gains.

I think he means in direct sequels.

Like Ultron did worse than avengers.

Oh gotcha.

That statement is only correct in regards to Avengers. Otherwise, sequels did better than originals in every other series thus far.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Also isn't a box-office drop between 1st and 2nd movie a tradition for Star Wars trilogies? Hell, haven't recently Marvel movies not done as good business as their predecessors?

Factually and utterly inaccurate. Black Panther is the highest grossing Marvel film ever domestically and #3 worldwide. The rest of the movies all vary on position and none of them have been remotely close to unsuccessful. The closest would be Ant-Man and Incredibly Hulk based off of studio goals, but Ant-Man was very sucessful still and Hulk did net gains.

I think he means in direct sequels.

Like Ultron did worse than avengers.

Oh gotcha.

That statement is only correct in regards to Avengers. Otherwise, sequels did better than originals in every other series thus far.

Thor 2 to 1?
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Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Also isn't a box-office drop between 1st and 2nd movie a tradition for Star Wars trilogies? Hell, haven't recently Marvel movies not done as good business as their predecessors?

Factually and utterly inaccurate. Black Panther is the highest grossing Marvel film ever domestically and #3 worldwide. The rest of the movies all vary on position and none of them have been remotely close to unsuccessful. The closest would be Ant-Man and Incredibly Hulk based off of studio goals, but Ant-Man was very sucessful still and Hulk did net gains.

I think he means in direct sequels.

Like Ultron did worse than avengers.

Oh gotcha.

That statement is only correct in regards to Avengers. Otherwise, sequels did better than originals in every other series thus far.

Thor 2 to 1?

Thor 2 outgrossed 1. I think the only sequel that didn't is Iron Man 2 to 1, but it's less than 10 million dollars away (I think).
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Avengers > Ultron > Civil War (nope not giving u this as a cap film)

Ironman 3 > 2 > 1

Guardians 2 > 1

Cap 2 > Cap 1

Thor 3 > Thor 2 > 1. HOWWWW???

So it's only really true in avengers films.
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Oh, my Iron Man statement is true but only with Domestic Gross.

Yeah, I don't know how LMS got the idea that Marvel films are trending downward. Even expectations for lower tier Marvel characters are consistently being met or beaten.

EDIT: I think from a casual perspective, it should be considered that Civil War was a "Cap film featuring his amazing friends." The marketing pushed that the Avengers were appearing, but the selling point was Spider-Man more than anything. Similar to Thor being bolstered by Hulk advertising.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Oh, my Iron Man statement is true but only with Domestic Gross.

Yeah, I don't know how LMS got the idea that Marvel films are trending downward. Even expectations for lower tier Marvel characters are consistently being met or beaten.

It is actually kind of amazing. Though I think antman and the wasp will snap that non avengers streak.
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Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Oh, my Iron Man statement is true but only with Domestic Gross.

Yeah, I don't know how LMS got the idea that Marvel films are trending downward. Even expectations for lower tier Marvel characters are consistently being met or beaten.

It is actually kind of amazing. Though I think antman and the wasp will snap that non avengers streak.

It doesn't have to work too hard. I think it could actually be pretty close overall. They did steal an Independence Day frame for release with it, and I think that could help go a long way. If I was Marvel, I'd throw a nice big moment for Ant-Man in Infinity War and use that momentum along with the Civil War momentum (he got pretty good play and reception despite being eclipsed by Spidey). Domestically, I could see it beating the tally at least.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Oh, my Iron Man statement is true but only with Domestic Gross.

Yeah, I don't know how LMS got the idea that Marvel films are trending downward. Even expectations for lower tier Marvel characters are consistently being met or beaten.

It is actually kind of amazing. Though I think antman and the wasp will snap that non avengers streak.

It doesn't have to work too hard. I think it could actually be pretty close overall. They did steal an Independence Day frame for release with it, and I think that could help go a long way. If I was Marvel, I'd throw a nice big moment for Ant-Man in Infinity War and use that momentum along with the Civil War momentum (he got pretty good play and reception despite being eclipsed by Spidey). Domestically, I could see it beating the tally at least.

Is the plot of the movie gonna involve Wasp trying to steal a small toy plane?
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I'm still kinda mixed on TLJ. I ultimately liked it overall but man there's some stuff in it I could do without.
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Also there's some great Finn development scenes that got cut for no damn reason.
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banananor posted...

oh, i dunno. i think it's just easier to get people to respond to something silly like the light-speed technology than to engage on more complex topics

like how in the last page i talked about how episode 8's message is "nothing matters, let the past die and watch cool fights and fight forever"

True

Like with Thrones last year, again. 99% of the criticism on the TV board, not so much here, was of these silly nitpicks rather than deeper criticisms like structure, acting quality, character development, etc.

What I would say though is I read that and wasn't really clear on what you meant or how you came to that conclusion and I was in the middle of an argument, so I didn't want to get into arguing on like 3 fronts.
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Corrik posted...

AquaArcane posted...

So what was JJ's reason for having Luke on the island then

We do not know. Rian torched the outline with his movie. Since JJ is back for the 3rd, the question is if he will undo what Rian did to continue his vision, continue Rians vision, or take it even somewhere else new.

He obviously had much bigger plans for the Knights of Ren, Snoke, and Rey's parentage.

I dont think he did. I think he approached it kinda like Lost, where he set things up and then left it to everyone else to figure it out. That they then went back to him after Trevorrow left/was canned is just a matter of him already being familiar with the way theyre doing things.
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JonThePenguin posted...

Corrik posted...

AquaArcane posted...

So what was JJ's reason for having Luke on the island then

We do not know. Rian torched the outline with his movie. Since JJ is back for the 3rd, the question is if he will undo what Rian did to continue his vision, continue Rians vision, or take it even somewhere else new.

He obviously had much bigger plans for the Knights of Ren, Snoke, and Rey's parentage.

I dont think he did. I think he approached it kinda like Lost, where he set things up and then left it to everyone else to figure it out. That they then went back to him after Trevorrow left/was canned is just a matter of him already being familiar with the way theyre doing things.

You sure?

Q: Was Reys fate already planned by J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan as soon as the idea of Episode VII became official ?

DR: Heres what I think I know. JJ wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didnt keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.
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Corrik posted...

JonThePenguin posted...

Corrik posted...

AquaArcane posted...

So what was JJ's reason for having Luke on the island then

We do not know. Rian torched the outline with his movie. Since JJ is back for the 3rd, the question is if he will undo what Rian did to continue his vision, continue Rians vision, or take it even somewhere else new.

He obviously had much bigger plans for the Knights of Ren, Snoke, and Rey's parentage.

I dont think he did. I think he approached it kinda like Lost, where he set things up and then left it to everyone else to figure it out. That they then went back to him after Trevorrow left/was canned is just a matter of him already being familiar with the way theyre doing things.

You sure?

Q: Was Reys fate already planned by J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan as soon as the idea of Episode VII became official ?

DR: Heres what I think I know. JJ wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didnt keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.

Whats that from? This is the first Ive ever heard of Abrams writing anything for 8 or 9, much less an actual draft of a script.

The way I heard it, after Johnson got the job, they basically sat down and asked him What happens next?
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JonThePenguin posted...

Corrik posted...

JonThePenguin posted...

Corrik posted...

AquaArcane posted...

So what was JJ's reason for having Luke on the island then

We do not know. Rian torched the outline with his movie. Since JJ is back for the 3rd, the question is if he will undo what Rian did to continue his vision, continue Rians vision, or take it even somewhere else new.

He obviously had much bigger plans for the Knights of Ren, Snoke, and Rey's parentage.

I dont think he did. I think he approached it kinda like Lost, where he set things up and then left it to everyone else to figure it out. That they then went back to him after Trevorrow left/was canned is just a matter of him already being familiar with the way theyre doing things.

You sure?

Q: Was Reys fate already planned by J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan as soon as the idea of Episode VII became official ?

DR: Heres what I think I know. JJ wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didnt keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.

Whats that from? This is the first Ive ever heard of Abrams writing anything for 8 or 9, much less an actual draft of a script.

The way I heard it, after Johnson got the job, they basically sat down and asked him What happens next?

That is an interview with Daisy Ridley. Everything I have ever heard was that there was an outline for the trilogy made by Abrams and Disney. And Rian Johnson just totally went in a different direction and scorched the outline.
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Jesus...

I didn't expect this topic to blow up while at work, are y'all arguing about the same shit as before?
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Corrik posted...

That is an interview with Daisy Ridley. Everything I have ever heard was that there was an outline for the trilogy made by Abrams and Disney. And Rian Johnson just totally went in a different direction and scorched the outline.

Johnson seems to say otherwise:

The stigma surrounding Lucasfilm post-Disney's purchase is that the suits and Kennedy have their foot on the writers/directors heads. Rian Johnson has staunchly said that assumption could not be further from the truth, and he fortifies that further here:

I had figured there would be a big map on the wall with the whole story laid out, and it was not that at all. I was basically given the script for Episode VII; I got to watch dailies of what J. J. was doing. And it was like, where do we go from here? That was awesome.

When asked if he was required to include any specific plot-points or end-game, Johnson once again dismissed it:

Nothing like that. But its the second film in a trilogy. The first film got these characters here. This second movie has to dig into and challenge these characters. I wanted this to be a satisfying experience unto itself. I didnt want it to end with a dot, dot, dot, question mark.

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JonThePenguin posted...

Corrik posted...

That is an interview with Daisy Ridley. Everything I have ever heard was that there was an outline for the trilogy made by Abrams and Disney. And Rian Johnson just totally went in a different direction and scorched the outline.

Johnson seems to say otherwise:

The stigma surrounding Lucasfilm post-Disney's purchase is that the suits and Kennedy have their foot on the writers/directors heads. Rian Johnson has staunchly said that assumption could not be further from the truth, and he fortifies that further here:

I had figured there would be a big map on the wall with the whole story laid out, and it was not that at all. I was basically given the script for Episode VII; I got to watch dailies of what J. J. was doing. And it was like, where do we go from here? That was awesome.

When asked if he was required to include any specific plot-points or end-game, Johnson once again dismissed it:

Nothing like that. But its the second film in a trilogy. The first film got these characters here. This second movie has to dig into and challenge these characters. I wanted this to be a satisfying experience unto itself. I didnt want it to end with a dot, dot, dot, question mark.

What do you think is more likely...

The main star of the movies is lying about it, the movie reverses a lot of the momentum the previous movie seemed to be going in, and also that the biggest trilogy for the biggest franchise right now did not have an outline of where it intended to go.

Or Rian just didn't want to let loose he took it in his own direction to cover criticism?

I expect one day we will hear more about it.
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Okay so lightspeed kamikaze argument again... stupid, moving on. Uh, stuff about Marvel for reasons, and now we're back to talking about how Rian Johnson apparently destroyed JJ's plans for the future. Which is also bullshit but whatever.

Alright so has anyone watched the bonus features yet? The deleted scenes were kinda disappointing, although there's no logical reason why Luke's moment was cut. It's a 10 second scene for fuck's sake.

What really got me though, the casino chase scene was originally twice as long. Twice as long. For a scene that's still too long in the final cut. As someone who loves this movie more than any child I may ever have, even I can't justify such nonsense.
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AquaArcane posted...

Okay so lightspeed kamikaze argument again... stupid, moving on. Uh, stuff about Marvel for reasons, and now we're back to talking about how Rian Johnson apparently destroyed JJ's plans for the future. Which is also bullshit but whatever.

Alright so has anyone watched the bonus features yet? The deleted scenes were kinda disappointing, although there's no logical reason why Luke's moment was cut. It's a 10 second scene for fuck's sake.

What really got me though, the casino chase scene was originally twice as long. Twice as long. For a scene that's still too long in the final cut. As someone who loves this movie more than any child I may ever have, even I can't justify such nonsense.

TheRock just stated how the deleted scenes would have immensely helped the film and Finn's development. So, apparently he is not in agreement with you on them.
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Thank you Corrik I actually can read though, and when Rock wants to talk to me about his feelings on the deleted scenes, he will do so.
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AquaArcane posted...

Thank you Corrik I actually can read though, and when Rock wants to talk to me about his feelings on the deleted scenes, he will do so.

???

If you do not like discussion, maybe you shouldn't be discussing stuff on a forum.
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banananor posted...

Inviso posted...

I just strongly disagree with the lightspeed ram criticism because it was cool and I don't think it's even remotely "world-breaking", and I do feel like it's overpushed (much like Leia's space flight) as a negative to heap negative criticism onto the film.

oh, i dunno. i think it's just easier to get people to respond to something silly like the light-speed technology than to engage on more complex topics

I mean....fucking think about it.

When you have multiple people coming out the gate and straight up saying, "if you hold X opinion on topic Y, you're an asshole, full stop," of course topic Y is going to dominate the conversation.
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I just do not understand what is more important for Star Wars canon than something that literally breaks it. That is my BIGGEST gripe of the entire movie. There is a bunch of other areas. Some I have come to terms with. Some I can let go by just arguing "incompetency" of characters. Some others still exist in my mind. But, the lightspeed ram thing is one of the biggest things I have a problem with because it is one of those things that I do not get how at any point someone didn't say... uh... well... how does this make sense in Star Wars based on the previous movies?

It is so blatant.

How did that get through? Was the beauty of the shot really more important than the canon of the universe?
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Oh my god

Nobody fucking respond to the lightspeed ramming thing anymore, please.

I'm begging you
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First of all, has this been done before, period? Ive got to reserve the right for [Story Group member] Pablo [Hidalgo] to build it back into canon, if hes like, Yeah, this is a thing and they outlawed it. I think theres various ways you can go with it. But its not like it was the plan to do this. Its a spur of the moment thing. Its this idea that she gets and she sits down and fucking does, and it obviously takes everybody completely by surprise. It takes Hux by surprise. The fact that Hux doesnt see it coming means its probably not a standard military maneuver. I think it was something that Holdo (laughs) pulled out of her butt in the moment. - Rian Johnson

I mean...
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banananor posted...

like how in the last page i talked about how episode 8's message is "nothing matters, let the past die and watch cool fights and fight forever"

If you're referring to how all the progress in the OT got erased, then yeah, I'm with you. The good guys being reduced to a single ship of rebels seems... manipulative, from a storytelling perspective. "It's more fun to root for rebels on the edge, so let's serve up some rebels on the edge."

(If you meant something besides that, I dunno what you mean)
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Gatarix posted...

banananor posted...

like how in the last page i talked about how episode 8's message is "nothing matters, let the past die and watch cool fights and fight forever"

If you're referring to how all the progress in the OT got erased, then yeah, I'm with you. The good guys being reduced to a single ship of rebels seems... manipulative, from a storytelling perspective. "It's more fun to root for rebels on the edge, so let's serve up some rebels on the edge."

(If you meant something besides that, I dunno what you mean)

Well, to be fair, they weren't. The Republic was a ton of ships. They just got wiped out when their capital sector got starkillered.

The Resistance just was an offshoot basically terrorist/vigilante branch of the Republic.
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oh I never got that distinction, I just thought "lol the Republic is calling itself the Resistance now"
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Gatarix posted...

oh I never got that distinction, I just thought "lol the Republic is calling itself the Resistance now"

I think it comes across that way and worse yet, it comes across like the Republic spent 30 years playing tag with other armies instead of using their figurehead leader to reseat the Galactic Republic as the center of galactic power. Honestly, you can get away with it in the first return film, but if you want Star Wars to feel expansive, you have to give a little scope to the size of the Republic's impact.

I think Episode 8 makes this Resistance feel like such small potatoes that I can't root for them, and I know that's heartless, but they had decades. DECADES.
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Gatarix posted...

oh I never got that distinction, I just thought "lol the Republic is calling itself the Resistance now"

Basically if I remember it correctly, the Republic takes over after the victory at Jakku (or wherever Rey is from). They are tired of war and the Empire wants peace. They let most sectors decide who they want to rule. The Empire basically is relegated to the outer rim which the First Order takes control of. Leia and company do not trust that the First Order can be trusted so they take some ships and luxury liners they retrofit for war and go off on their own fighting the First Order on the side without the Republic's blessing.
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https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-timeline-of-everything-we-know-happened-after-return-1820781008
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Before I post something big, do we have any guesstimates as to the First Orders troop strength by the end of the movie? We're shown that the Resistance numbers only in the dozens, but the First Order hardly seems bigger. Holdo really wrecked their shit.

My buddy and I were joking that the conflict resembled a streetgang fight more than a galactic war by the time they met on the salt planet. Maybe that's why the rest of the galaxy didn't care.
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I will admit that when I made my statement about Marvel movies I completely forgot about Black Panther. I was largely referring to Age of Ultron and Civil War.
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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Civil War

Highest grossing film of 2016.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Maybe that's why the rest of the galaxy didn't care.

I figured that was the point of DJ's character, to show us that the conflict really doesn't expand as far as we always thought. Even back in the days of the Empire, who actually had control over the galaxy, there were still plenty of planets that weren't too bothered by their existence. Especially those on the outer rim.

Now we're seeing the remnants of both the Empire and Rebels fighting each other. It's on a smaller, more personal scale.

Doesn't mean you should downplay their importance though, if the rebels fail now, the galaxy will go on to be ruled by a 30 year old man child.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Civil War

Highest grossing film of 2016.

Yeah but I kept hearing about how it made less money than Age of Ultron.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Before I post something big, do we have any guesstimates as to the First Orders troop strength by the end of the movie? We're shown that the Resistance numbers only in the dozens, but the First Order hardly seems bigger. Holdo really wrecked their shit.

My buddy and I were joking that the conflict resembled a streetgang fight more than a galactic war by the time they met on the salt planet. Maybe that's why the rest of the galaxy didn't care.

I can probably find it out, but I think they had something like 9 dreadnaughts which were ridiculous in size and vastly dwarfed any ship ever built before (like the SSD). Let me pull some shit up.
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Okay I could not find out exact numbers but basically... The New Republic when they took over demilitarized much of their fleet. Their fleet was bigger than the First Order's but neither was particularly large. The First Order's ships numbered in the hundreds (closer to a hundred) than the thousands the Empire possessed.

Most of the New Republic fleet was wiped out by Starkiller base.

The First Order lacking resources and limited by Republic mandates had a strictly technologically superior fleet instead of a numerical.superiority fleet.

We know that the First Order has
1 Mega Class Dreadnaught - destroyed by lightspeed ram

Approximately 5 to 10 Dreadnaughts (2.5x size of Resurgent SDs) - 1 destroyed at beginning of TLJ

Approximately 100 Resurgent SDs. (Double the size of the old SDs) - saw like 7 or so destroyed with light speed ram. - some likely destroyed at Starkiller base also.

Approximately 30-50 older Imperial Star Destroyers.

Numbers of Corvettes and Cruisers. Unapproximable.

Complements of new advanced Tie types for each ship. Numbering probably close to 6-10,000.
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One theory I have on why The Last Jedi was so well-received by critics while it's much more divisive among audiences is that critics have had to slog their way through tons of absolute crap over the year. To them The Last Jedi would practically look like a gift from god after having to watch stuff like Transformers: The Last Knight, Justice League, The Mummy, The Dark Tower, and The Emoji Movie.
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LinkMarioSamus posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Civil War

Highest grossing film of 2016.

Yeah but I kept hearing about how it made less money than Age of Ultron.

It's not an Avengers movie. It's a Captain America movie.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

LinkMarioSamus posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Civil War

Highest grossing film of 2016.

Yeah but I kept hearing about how it made less money than Age of Ultron.

It's not an Avengers movie. It's a Captain America movie.

That is not fair. It was supposed to be Cap 3 but they made it into an avengers movie to try and knock out DCEU who had just announced BVS. I do not give it credit for being a Captain America movie. I am disappointed if you are trying to, scarlet. It is a Captain movie in only name.
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In name only doesn't matter, man. It's a Captain America movie and it's clear that they wanted to separate the branding from Avengers for marketing reasons, which they did. What you watched and what was advertised were two different things. It was certainly pushed primarily as "Captain America takes on the Avengers and Spider-Man debuts", but the primary selling point was that this was a Captain America movie and his enemies would be the Avengers.
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Bucky/Cap is the movie's throughline

It's a Cap movie
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"It's not a Cap movie because that doesn't fit my narrative".
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