Board 8 > Star Wars topic revival - The Last Jedi is now in our hands

(+) Yeah! (+)

Except it wasn't actually established that it couldn't, it just didn't.

There were also a plethora of reasons brought up in previous topics about why it worked this time when it wouldn't before that you ignored.
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Also I greatly enjoyed the movie, and the fight scene without Rey and Kylo fighting Snokes guards was awesome, but man was it lame as hell to just kill him so easily and make him look like a fool.
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LapisLazuli posted...

That's not even close, scarlet.

The lightspeed ramming issue is like saying a Fast & the Furious movie is ruined because "in reality, that car shouldn't be able to catch up with the other car in a high speed chase!"

If you were, say, a car enthusiast, wouldn't such a break in reality bother you? Not everyone enjoys a lack of logic in movies. The basic conceit here is that you believe that something that breaks with the conventions of reality is something that can't ruin a film for you.

Let me introduce you to my grandmother, who told my mom when she was a girl that she would never take her to animated movies because they were "too fake," and essentially left that to my grandfather. She utterly detested anything that wasn't plausible in movies.

Do I think that's a strange point of view? It certainly doesn't mesh with mine, but I won't discount it. It's just one person's interpretation of what is entertaining. When Star Wars fans get invested in something, they dissect it to the most minute detail. They develop a passion for it. It's entirely reasonable that a pivotal moment in a movie doesn't work for someone to such an extent that it ruins the film for them.

And I say this as someone who enjoyed the lightspeed ram.
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I enjoyed the movie a lot as I was watching it, but there are clearly a lot of issues with it, and I can certainly understand why some people can't look past them. But I'm willing to wait for episode 9 at least before we outright decide what has broken the universe and what hasn't.

I will say that I hope DJ has an important role. Otherwise that whole casino sideplot was a complete and utter waste of time.
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Or maybe no one thought of it before then because it's essentially suicide and none of the instances we've seen have had the characters in such dire straits before. This is also the first time we've really had a comparatively massive ship going up against the technologically superior force. Typically it's the small X-wings, which, sure, if they were to kamikaze it'd do SOMETHING, but we've no evidence in a science fantasy universe that a vehicle that small would be effective.

I'm just saying, Hondo's kamikaze attack worked given the psychology of the situation, and again, this is science fantasy, not science fiction. They're not beholden to the same "realistic" guidelines in terms of how physics works.
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XIII_rocks posted...

I won't take every opinion at face value, sorry. Especially when you can tell the true motivations behind the criticism. If someone says the movie sucked because the lightspeed ramming thing broke the physics of the universe, that person is choosing to dislike the movie and they're probably layering that one on after the fact.

Is it really that surprising that there are Star Wars fans who care about the technology in the series? You seem to be of the opinion that they don't exist and people just cite concerns with the technology as a cover for their real problems.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Do I think that's a strange point of view? It certainly doesn't mesh with mine, but I won't discount it.

I guess that's where we differ fundamentally there, because I absolutely would discount such an opinion. I harshly disagree with the idea that "All opinions and criticisms have value", as recent politics have made clear.
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Inviso posted...

Or maybe no one thought of it before then because it's essentially suicide and none of the instances we've seen have had the characters in such dire straits before.

This is a great position to mention because it is one of the reasons I think that discarding the EU was a great idea.

Consider this: for thousands of years, there was absolutely no progression in the Star Wars galaxy technologically. Now, we certainly have experienced centuries of stagnation in the real world from time to time, but it's generally posited that as technology progresses, it continues to progress at an exponentially faster rate. It's a snowball effect.

While I can believe that, on the surface, no one ever thought to ram a lightspeed object into another object before (or rather, while they thought of it, no one had the wherewithal or the gumption to do it), I start to become distracted by other aspects of this argument since I'm so firmly used to the EU being a piece of history that I start to question how this society can be so stagnant for so long.

Even without the EU, I wonder if there have been enough mentions in Star Wars canon of past events that one could infer that lightspeed travel has existed for centuries.

Anyways, sorry about rambling. For some reason, that stagnant technology thing really bugs me.
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Haven't seen the movie but the existence of the "de-feminized" edit doesn't help assuage concerns that the film's detractors are anti-PC trolls.

And apparently a Facebook group was created specifically to bring down the audience Rotten Tomatoes scores for The Last Jedi and Black Panther. Honestly RT Audience Scores seem even less trustworthy than RT Critic Scores.
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LapisLazuli posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Do I think that's a strange point of view? It certainly doesn't mesh with mine, but I won't discount it.

I guess that's where we differ fundamentally there, because I absolutely would discount such an opinion. I harshly disagree with the idea that "All opinions and criticisms have value", as recent politics have made clear.

There's a difference between holding an opinion that actually carries negative consequences for society and carrying an opinion about how a specific detail in a movie detracts from the movie. It's not responsible to either accept all opinions or pigeonhole yourself into only accepting a few without considering what those opinions are actually saying. I refuse to let the childish tantrums of modern politics reflect on my ability to have an enjoyable discussion with other users on this board about a movie and why or why not they may enjoy it.

If their motivation for disliking a film becomes something that reflects on their own unacceptable value system, that's a different story. But no one compares lightspeed travel to racism yet.
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Scarlet, I partially agree with your post.

The argument of light speed ramming is universe breaking because youre positing that in thousands of years of use, no ones ever done it before?

Or that it shouldnt be possible. Says who? Why?

Edit: the disagreement is with being ok with discarding EU. :( Kyle Katarn though
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

He obviously had much bigger plans for the Knights of Ren, Snoke, and Rey's parentage.

Luckily, I think if JJ wanted Rey to have different parentage, it's pretty easy to backpedal and say that Kylo was just playing mind games.

This is entirely possible, but I hope it doesn't happen. I like Rey being nobody in terms of her parentage. I like the idea that anyone can rise to the occasion and be a hero, you don't need some kind of pedigree to save the galaxy; and I also like how it subverts expectations. Everyone was like "oh man, is Rey a Solo? Is she a Skywalker?" - anything in that vein would be kind of predictable and stale. But I really didn't see coming that it was nobody in particular, and it charmed me.

As for the movie, I really liked everything having to do with Rey/Luke/Kylo. The slow-motion chase subplot (ft. Holdo pretending to be incompetent) was kinda comical, in a bad way - not just because of Holdo withholding information but because the whole situation felt contrived. Like, they can't intercept them or anything? But on the whole I liked the movie a lot.
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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Haven't seen the movie but the existence of the "de-feminized" edit doesn't help assuage concerns that the film's detractors are anti-PC trolls.

And apparently a Facebook group was created specifically to bring down the audience Rotten Tomatoes scores for The Last Jedi and Black Panther. Honestly RT Audience Scores seem even less trustworthy than RT Critic Scores.

Despite the existence of Russia Today and Rotten Tomatoes, every time I see RT, I immediately think RoosterTeeth.
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Stagnant technology is a huge issue for tons of sci-fi space operas, particular those borrowing from historical epics for their story structure. Technically, in a world with space flight on this scale, we should an seeing advances RAPIDLY and CONSTANTLY. It's the kind of thing that helps me understand the Star Trek side of the divide.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

If their motivation for disliking a film becomes something that reflects on their own unacceptable value system, that's a different story. But no one compares lightspeed travel to racism yet.

Corrik is actively posting in this topic, so don't sit too comfortably yet <_<
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scarletspeed7 posted...

To me, this is actually placing your own worldview on other people and in effect dismissing huge swaths of arguments simply because you believe they couldn't possibly be the real reason someone dislikes a movie.

The real point there is the "choice" aspect - that they're choosing not to like it, choosing to see it in a negative way, choosing to make it an issue.

Like there are some things you are going to see and just instantly dislike, and those come from inside you. Things like the gender stuff or the casino stuff or how Luke was handled or the plot or Carrie Fisher's acting. Some of those fall under the "garbage" category I mentioned in my first post but I understand that they are innately personal and absolutely subjective. I think they're dumb things to hate a movie over, particularly the gender one, but I understand the innately personal nature of those ideas.

But this particular thing is an event we don't have all the information on, something that can be interpreted in different ways, something you can possibly interpret to be "universe-breaking" if you take the most negative slant possible. If you have it explained to you how it possibly isn't, and then double down? You've chosen an attempt at stubborn victory in an argument on the internet.

That's the core of the problem more than the "layering it on" thing. We don't know if it is or it isn't, and if you claim to know, you're a fool. So why then argue that it is, just to give yourself another reason to hate something? I don't understand that kind of person. It's either "winning this argument on the internet is more important than my own personal enjoyment of something" or a choice to indulge in and enjoy negativity.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Scarlet, I partially agree with your post.

The argument of light speed ramming is universe breaking because youre positing that in thousands of years of use, no ones ever done it before?

Or that it shouldnt be possible. Says who? Why?

Edit: the disagreement is with being ok with discarding EU. :( Kyle Katarn though

Don't get me wrong; I love the EU in terms of individual installments. Rogue Squadron books, Thrawn Trilogy, KOTOR, etc.

My issue isn't that light speed ramming is universe breaking. I'm not a physicist and those types of details don't really bother me too much as I don't think I'm as well-versed in the science of Star Wars as others. My issue is simply that in thousands of years, it seems like they've operated with the exact same technology and it hasn't progressed. I wouldn't call the ram a "progression", just an unexpected variation of existing technology. My issue is just highlighted by the fact that someone is using this extremely old technology for such a new purpose, and yet thousands of years ago this technology already existed. So I question how this technology hasn't been improved upon in any way. And it's not just the lightspeed travel, but the form of technology that allows one to communicate or the aesthetics within ship never changing, or the blasters remaining virtually unchanged, etc.

I'm probably not explaining this articulately enough to make enough sense. It was just a little detail that sent me down a rabbit hole.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Corrik posted...

Grand Kirby posted...

Why don't they just use lightspeed kamikaze ship attacks all the time?

End of discussion right there.

This is why it was not well thought.

Immediately in that scene, which is beautifully shot, you say to yourself.. "wait what the fuck... Why didn't they do that at endor? Or anywhere else for that matter?"

It is universe breaking and is a HUGE issue.

How is it a HUGE issue though?

Would you rather someone write some sort of deus ex machina that magically prevents lightspeed kamikazes? If you think about it, the concept has always been possible, but it relies on someone being willing to commit suicide while using a massive, expensive ship.

I am going to ask this nicely. If you wish to earnestly discuss star wars with me, please have a firm grasp on what happens in the movies so you understand what it means to be star wars universe breaking.

1. You can suicide empty ships via droids.

2. The ENTIRE rebellion fleet was prepared to suicide at Endor when they thought they were lured into the trap and shield was still up on the death star. They made it clear they were going to go out fighting. A single Mon Calamari Cruiser could have decimated the entire imperial fleet there sans the Death Star with a single light speed jump.

There is reasons the star wars buffs and nerds have a major issue with this. Sure if you are a casual maybe you do not care. Others do care because they are invested in the universe.

Like, the fact you all can't even say yeah I can see that gripe and are instead arguing it cannot be valid and is just fabricated to bolster an argument because you hate some sjw nonsense argument no one even ever made it just ridiculous.
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Corrik, don't use the droid argument. If you use that argument, then the whole fucking franchise is stupid because the entire plot of the original trilogy relies on Vader's crew being too stupid to destroy an escape pod because there are "no life signs".
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XIII_rocks posted...

We don't know if it is or it isn't, and if you claim to know, you're a fool. So why then argue that it is, just to give yourself another reason to hate something? I don't understand that kind of person. It's either "winning this argument on the internet is more important than my own personal enjoyment of something" or a choice to indulge in and enjoy negativity.

I guess that I just refuse to allow a discussion to be an argument in my mind. Even if we don't know "everything about it yet," the presentation can say a lot. We have to work with what we've got. As a fanbase of a series, I think it's perfectly acceptable to dislike an aspect of a work if you can explain why you dislike it. I feel like there's almost an ulterior motive in your position (I'm not saying you have one, just that it feels that way to me) - that people truly "hate" this movie. That's one of the problems with a wedge issue, two-party society. The words love and hate have been given such broad meanings, and then people begin to live life and accept worldviews on extremes. I think that as a responsible filmgoer and board discussion participant (I know, lol @ Scarlet being either of those things), I have to create a distinction between someone's passion for a subject and how they demonstrate it, so long as neither of those things create a negative moral consequence for society.

I think I sound like a douchebag when I say this, so I should probably stop.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

Is it really that surprising that there are Star Wars fans who care about the technology in the series? You seem to be of the opinion that they don't exist and people just cite concerns with the technology as a cover for their real problems.

Concerns are one thing. But this wasn't egregious. This is a thing where it possibly is universe-breaking if you interpret it a particular way.
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Corrik posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Corrik posted...

Grand Kirby posted...

Why don't they just use lightspeed kamikaze ship attacks all the time?

End of discussion right there.

This is why it was not well thought.

Immediately in that scene, which is beautifully shot, you say to yourself.. "wait what the fuck... Why didn't they do that at endor? Or anywhere else for that matter?"

It is universe breaking and is a HUGE issue.

How is it a HUGE issue though?

Would you rather someone write some sort of deus ex machina that magically prevents lightspeed kamikazes? If you think about it, the concept has always been possible, but it relies on someone being willing to commit suicide while using a massive, expensive ship.

I am going to ask this nicely. If you wish to earnestly discuss star wars with me, please have a firm grasp on what happens in the movies so you understand what it means to be star wars universe breaking.

1. You can suicide empty ships via droids.

2. The ENTIRE rebellion fleet was prepared to suicide at Endor when they thought they were lured into the trap and shield was still up on the death star. They made it clear they were going to go out fighting. A single Mon Calamari Cruiser could have decimated the entire imperial fleet there sans the Death Star with a single light speed jump.

There is reasons the star wars buffs and nerds have a major issue with this. Sure if you are a casual maybe you do not care. Others do care because they are invested in the universe.

Like, the fact you all can't even say yeah I can see that gripe and are instead arguing it cannot be valid and is just fabricated to bolster an argument because you hate some sjw nonsense argument no one even ever made it just ridiculous.

You just dismantled your entire argument while being a gigantic prick, lmao.

If lightspeed kamikaze works and has been talked about, then what makes it UNIVERSE BREAKING when someone finally goes through with it?
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i've kind of soured on the movie

from my perspective, the entire message of the film is "who cares about context or emotion. just let the past die and enjoy fight scenes instead, because we're going to be fighting forever"

i like star wars because of its pathos, sense of history, morality plays, and sense of progress. the original trilogy was centered around religious, environmental and emotional themes and motifs.

i will come out and say that i'd be more amped if carrie fischer were still alive.

i'm still not sure if there's a reason for me to want to see episode 9. here's what we know:

there's going to be more fighting. the universe will go on. we'll constantly have villains and heroes with cool glowing weapons. the big mysteries and big bads are gone

what can we look forward to in episode 9, really? i guess we'll get to see the same lightsaber duel for the third movie in a row
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Well scarlet, would it make you feel better if I said that I know there are people who like the movie and still have a problem with that moment...and that my opinion is largely the same? It still ultimately comes down to the choice to interpret something as a negative.

You're right that so far I've been dealing in extremes. I pointed out two issues - A) interpreting it as a negative when an alternative exists, and then rejecting arguments to the contrary and B) layering the criticism on after the fact to give themselves extra ammunition against the movie. A "hater" of the movie might do both A and B. But someone who liked the movie isn't going to do B, they just won't accept the positive explanation, if they ever get one, and will therefore continue to do A.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

If lightspeed kamikaze works and has been talked about, then what makes it UNIVERSE BREAKING when someone finally goes through with it?

this isn't a particularly huge deal to me, but i will say that it doesn't make sense that this is the first time the tactic has ever been used in the history of the galaxy.

star wars is a space fantasy, not science fiction. we're all collectively agreeing to certain unrealistic, fantastical inaccuracies- ship engine noises in the vacuum of space, no battle AI, ww1 style dogfighting, etc. etc.

but we've agreed to that as part of the setting. it feels cheap to pull out the rug and retroactively change the rules almost 50 years into the franchise
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Cybat posted...

I enjoyed the movie a lot as I was watching it, but there are clearly a lot of issues with it, and I can certainly understand why some people can't look past them. But I'm willing to wait for episode 9 at least before we outright decide what has broken the universe and what hasn't.

I will say that I hope DJ has an important role. Otherwise that whole casino sideplot was a complete and utter waste of time.

This is the most sensible post on the other side so far.
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in order for the kamikaze attack to have worked, we have to collectively agree that every general, weapons designer, commander, etc. in the history of the galaxy was a complete and utter moron
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XIII_rocks posted...

I pointed out two issues - A) interpreting it as a negative when an alternative exists, and then rejecting arguments to the contrary and B) layering the criticism on after the fact to give themselves extra ammunition. A "hater" of the movie might do both A and B. But someone who liked the movie isn't going to do B, they just won't accept the positive explanation.

I can understand that point of view. My big issue was with the dismissive way Lapis handled this entire discussion. I found his post worse than the one Corrik just made with his bullet points. I did make an assumption that you were supporting that statement, so that's my mistake. Your position is definitely more nuanced than Lapis' "Fuck people who have opinions about something I really don't think is important."
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Inviso posted...

Or maybe no one thought of it before then because it's essentially suicide and none of the instances we've seen have had the characters in such dire straits before. This is also the first time we've really had a comparatively massive ship going up against the technologically superior force. Typically it's the small X-wings, which, sure, if they were to kamikaze it'd do SOMETHING, but we've no evidence in a science fantasy universe that a vehicle that small would be effective.

I'm just saying, Hondo's kamikaze attack worked given the psychology of the situation, and again, this is science fantasy, not science fiction. They're not beholden to the same "realistic" guidelines in terms of how physics works.

Literally Endor. Yavin 4.

Know the movies before you make posts that do not make sense. Jesus.
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Corrik posted...

Literally Endor. Yavin 4.

Know the movies before you make posts that do not make sense. Jesus.

I disagree that they were in "as dire straits" in either of those films as they were here. At least they had a working plan for Yavin 4. At least on Endor they had a working plan and an armada that could take something down by sheer attrition. What I saw in Episode 8 were 5 ships falling prey to a lack of leadership and planning. What the Rebels had in 4 and 6 did not exist here.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Don't get me wrong; I love the EU in terms of individual installments. Rogue Squadron books, Thrawn Trilogy, KOTOR, etc.

No I, Jedi. Failure post! Lol
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Inviso posted...

Corrik, don't use the droid argument. If you use that argument, then the whole fucking franchise is stupid because the entire plot of the original trilogy relies on Vader's crew being too stupid to destroy an escape pod because there are "no life signs".

That is an incompetent as the other things I posted in the incompetency handwaving I did earlier in regards to this movie. I can forgive incompetency in sake of plot mostly.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I can understand that point of view. My big issue was with the dismissive way Lapis handled this entire discussion. I found his post worse than the one Corrik just made with his bullet points. I did make an assumption that you were supporting that statement, so that's my mistake. Your position is definitely more nuanced than Lapis' "Fuck people who have opinions about something I really don't think is important."

Well I can't say I totally disagree with LTM, in that I think it does come off as a bit nitpicky. Reminds me of the stuff on the TV board about Thrones last year, where it became cool to criticise it and as a result people started looking for stuff.

But I do understand the potentially universe-breaking ramifications of it so I'm not going to go too hard on "it doesn't matter". I can see why it would matter, I guess...but, again, only if you choose to interpret the events that way.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Corrik posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Corrik posted...

Grand Kirby posted...

Why don't they just use lightspeed kamikaze ship attacks all the time?

End of discussion right there.

This is why it was not well thought.

Immediately in that scene, which is beautifully shot, you say to yourself.. "wait what the fuck... Why didn't they do that at endor? Or anywhere else for that matter?"

It is universe breaking and is a HUGE issue.

How is it a HUGE issue though?

Would you rather someone write some sort of deus ex machina that magically prevents lightspeed kamikazes? If you think about it, the concept has always been possible, but it relies on someone being willing to commit suicide while using a massive, expensive ship.

I am going to ask this nicely. If you wish to earnestly discuss star wars with me, please have a firm grasp on what happens in the movies so you understand what it means to be star wars universe breaking.

1. You can suicide empty ships via droids.

2. The ENTIRE rebellion fleet was prepared to suicide at Endor when they thought they were lured into the trap and shield was still up on the death star. They made it clear they were going to go out fighting. A single Mon Calamari Cruiser could have decimated the entire imperial fleet there sans the Death Star with a single light speed jump.

There is reasons the star wars buffs and nerds have a major issue with this. Sure if you are a casual maybe you do not care. Others do care because they are invested in the universe.

Like, the fact you all can't even say yeah I can see that gripe and are instead arguing it cannot be valid and is just fabricated to bolster an argument because you hate some sjw nonsense argument no one even ever made it just ridiculous.

You just dismantled your entire argument while being a gigantic prick, lmao.

If lightspeed kamikaze works and has been talked about, then what makes it UNIVERSE BREAKING when someone finally goes through with it?

Have you seriously not seen Episode 6?

What you are posting makes no sense. They didn't talk about it there. They fought point blank in suicidal tactics because there goal was to take as many of them with them. Not discussing lightspeed ramming.

Literally someone who has no grasp of episode 6 arguing with me about star wars.

Troll.

Done discussing with you.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Well scarlet, would it make you feel better if I said that I know there are people who like the movie and still have a problem with that moment...and that my opinion is largely the same? It still ultimately comes down to the choice to interpret something as a negative.

You're right that so far I've been dealing in extremes. I pointed out two issues - A) interpreting it as a negative when an alternative exists, and then rejecting arguments to the contrary and B) layering the criticism on after the fact to give themselves extra ammunition against the movie. A "hater" of the movie might do both A and B. But someone who liked the movie isn't going to do B, they just won't accept the positive explanation, if they ever get one, and will therefore continue to do A.

I do not dislike the movie. I am a star wars nerd after all. I just think it may be my LEAST liked star wars film. I need to watch it again though.
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Corrik posted...

Inviso posted...

Or maybe no one thought of it before then because it's essentially suicide and none of the instances we've seen have had the characters in such dire straits before. This is also the first time we've really had a comparatively massive ship going up against the technologically superior force. Typically it's the small X-wings, which, sure, if they were to kamikaze it'd do SOMETHING, but we've no evidence in a science fantasy universe that a vehicle that small would be effective.

I'm just saying, Hondo's kamikaze attack worked given the psychology of the situation, and again, this is science fantasy, not science fiction. They're not beholden to the same "realistic" guidelines in terms of how physics works.

Literally Endor. Yavin 4.

Know the movies before you make posts that do not make sense. Jesus.

You mean the battle where, despite the Empire getting one up on them, Han/Leia STILL took down the shield generator and allowed Lando to ultimately blow up the Death Star? That battle? Where they had a plan that went haywire and maybe created a bit too much chaos for people to, in the heat of the moment, be like, "well, that's 100% unsalvageable, time to kamikaze!"

Meanwhile, TLJ had a long period of time where Laura Dern was watching her decimated fleet get picked off while they hobbled along, and she was already prepared to sacrifice herself as a decoy. Then when her decoy plan failed and the First Order starts straight-up murdering every last member of the rebellion in their defenseless escape pods. So she, having already made peace with the Force and decided to sacrifice herself, became ACTIVE in that sacrifice instead of passive. The fact that she had a massive ship with which to do considerably more damage than a bunch of miniature X-Wings helped as well.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

Literally Endor. Yavin 4.

Know the movies before you make posts that do not make sense. Jesus.

I disagree that they were in "as dire straits" in either of those films as they were here. At least they had a working plan for Yavin 4. At least on Endor they had a working plan and an armada that could take something down by sheer attrition. What I saw in Episode 8 were 5 ships falling prey to a lack of leadership and planning. What the Rebels had in 4 and 6 did not exist here.

4 that is valid. 6 not valid. They thought they were literally fucked when that shield was up and the imperial fleet was there. To tell me a single commander wouldn't have emptied via transports to other shops and suicided his ship to save the entire rebellion fleet is silly. And to say the imperial or rebellion fleet would mass up in formations like those if that was a possible tactic is silly also.
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Inviso posted...

Corrik posted...

Inviso posted...

Or maybe no one thought of it before then because it's essentially suicide and none of the instances we've seen have had the characters in such dire straits before. This is also the first time we've really had a comparatively massive ship going up against the technologically superior force. Typically it's the small X-wings, which, sure, if they were to kamikaze it'd do SOMETHING, but we've no evidence in a science fantasy universe that a vehicle that small would be effective.

I'm just saying, Hondo's kamikaze attack worked given the psychology of the situation, and again, this is science fantasy, not science fiction. They're not beholden to the same "realistic" guidelines in terms of how physics works.

Literally Endor. Yavin 4.

Know the movies before you make posts that do not make sense. Jesus.

You mean the battle where, despite the Empire getting one up on them, Han/Leia STILL took down the shield generator and allowed Lando to ultimately blow up the Death Star? That battle? Where they had a plan that went haywire and maybe created a bit too much chaos for people to, in the heat of the moment, be like, "well, that's 100% unsalvageable, time to kamikaze!"

Meanwhile, TLJ had a long period of time where Laura Dern was watching her decimated fleet get picked off while they hobbled along, and she was already prepared to sacrifice herself as a decoy. Then when her decoy plan failed and the First Order starts straight-up murdering every last member of the rebellion in their defenseless escape pods. So she, having already made peace with the Force and decided to sacrifice herself, became ACTIVE in that sacrifice instead of passive. The fact that she had a massive ship with which to do considerably more damage than a bunch of miniature X-Wings helped as well.

A mon calamari cruiser is more similar in size to the SSD than that ship to the supremacy.
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Your post read like They talked about kamikaze before, and the bottom half (I assumed in response to me) wasnt even applicable.

In my other post I said I have problems with the movie, so maybe quit assuming everyone who disagrees with you is the same person?

But dont worry @Corrik, lmao from now on if you try and discuss anything and arent a supernerd about it, Ill give you the same respect youve given me, which is to say, none
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Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

Literally Endor. Yavin 4.

Know the movies before you make posts that do not make sense. Jesus.

I disagree that they were in "as dire straits" in either of those films as they were here. At least they had a working plan for Yavin 4. At least on Endor they had a working plan and an armada that could take something down by sheer attrition. What I saw in Episode 8 were 5 ships falling prey to a lack of leadership and planning. What the Rebels had in 4 and 6 did not exist here.

4 that is valid. 6 not valid. They thought they were literally fucked when that shield was up and the imperial fleet was there. To tell me a single commander wouldn't have emptied via transports to other shops and suicided his ship to save the entire rebellion fleet is silly. And to say the imperial or rebellion fleet would mass up in formations like those if that was a possible tactic is silly also.

They had A) people on the ground and B) a much more competent and larger fleet that they could angle against the Star Destroyers. The fleet's issue was the destroyers and not the Death Star. And the fleet's largest capital ship, once it was destroyed, was all that really needed to be handled.
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Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

Literally Endor. Yavin 4.

Know the movies before you make posts that do not make sense. Jesus.

I disagree that they were in "as dire straits" in either of those films as they were here. At least they had a working plan for Yavin 4. At least on Endor they had a working plan and an armada that could take something down by sheer attrition. What I saw in Episode 8 were 5 ships falling prey to a lack of leadership and planning. What the Rebels had in 4 and 6 did not exist here.

4 that is valid. 6 not valid. They thought they were literally fucked when that shield was up and the imperial fleet was there. To tell me a single commander wouldn't have emptied via transports to other shops and suicided his ship to save the entire rebellion fleet is silly. And to say the imperial or rebellion fleet would mass up in formations like those if that was a possible tactic is silly also.

Again. RotJ, they were surprised and caught off-guard, and I would assume kamikaze tactics would be a last ditch effort. TLJ, Hondo knew EXACTLY what was gonna happen to her and had plenty of time to prepare herself for her own inevitable death, so when the opportunity came up where literally the only thing she could do was kamikaze, she took that option. For all we know, she came up with it because of historically rare instances in the past where others did the same thing. I mean, we have ACTUAL kamikazes in history, and other instances you may have heard of that occurred in 2001, yet these are not commonplace tactics.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Your post read like They talked about kamikaze before, and the bottom half assumed in response to me wasnt even applicable.

In my other post I said I have problems with the movie, so maybe quit assuming everyone who disagrees with you is the same person?

But dont worry @Corrik, lmao from now on if you try and discuss anything and arent a supernerd about it, Ill give you the same respect youve given me, which is to say, none

Tony, if you are going to come with hard opinions and try to be a valid participant, you have to know where you are coming from.

You do not have to be an expert but saying someone dismantled their own argument because you yourself do not know what you are talking about it silly.

If you are unsure, ask about it.

Like, "are you saying they talked about this before?". And, I would have said no. It has never been a discussion in any star wars movie ever, despite impossible odds, despite perfect situations for it, and etc.

Like, at this point it just seems like you are arguing to argue with me. You don't seem to have a valid base to fall on to argue your spot. It is like inviso arguing only xwings were available to lightspeed ram. It is just simply untrue.
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I love the movie. I also find it hysterical that there are die hard Star Wars fans who wanted Luke to embrace the force and be an omnipotent god and those that wanted Luke to turn to the dark side and be an evil god. Apparently both those are in line with Luke's character but somehow what happened in the new trilogy is insanely out of line.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Corrik posted...

Literally Endor. Yavin 4.

Know the movies before you make posts that do not make sense. Jesus.

I disagree that they were in "as dire straits" in either of those films as they were here. At least they had a working plan for Yavin 4. At least on Endor they had a working plan and an armada that could take something down by sheer attrition. What I saw in Episode 8 were 5 ships falling prey to a lack of leadership and planning. What the Rebels had in 4 and 6 did not exist here.

4 that is valid. 6 not valid. They thought they were literally fucked when that shield was up and the imperial fleet was there. To tell me a single commander wouldn't have emptied via transports to other shops and suicided his ship to save the entire rebellion fleet is silly. And to say the imperial or rebellion fleet would mass up in formations like those if that was a possible tactic is silly also.

They had A) people on the ground and B) a much more competent and larger fleet that they could angle against the Star Destroyers. The fleet's issue was the destroyers and not the Death Star. And the fleet's largest capital ship, once it was destroyed, was all that really needed to be handled.

Whoa disagree totally.

What exactly are you saying here?.

The odds were impossible against the rebellion. The imperial fleet was not supposed to be there at all. Let alone a SSD and a bunch of SDs... And a shielded DS2 with a FULLY OPERATIONAL battlestation.
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Apparently someone did some math in order to label The Last Jedi as a financial failure, because apparently it didn't make the money it needs to justify Disney's investment in Lucasfilm. Sure.

To me those seem like completely unrelated issues, at least if we're discussing just Last Jedi's box office numbers. And given that Disney just forked over a ton of cash to outright buy 20th Century Fox, it's safe to say the company will not be in financial trouble anytime soon.

Also isn't a box-office drop between 1st and 2nd movie a tradition for Star Wars trilogies? Hell, haven't recently Marvel movies not done as good business as their predecessors?
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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Apparently someone did some math in order to label The Last Jedi as a financial failure, because apparently it didn't make the money it needs to justify Disney's investment in Lucasfilm. Sure.

To me those seem like completely unrelated issues, at least if we're discussing just Last Jedi's box office numbers. And given that Disney just forked over a ton of cash to outright buy 20th Century Fox, it's safe to say the company will not be in financial trouble anytime soon.

Also isn't a box-office drop between 1st and 2nd movie a tradition for Star Wars trilogies? Hell, haven't recently Marvel movies not done as good business as their predecessors?

Anyone saying it was a failure financially is a moron lol. It is a huge success. Prolly not as much as they hoped but still a massive success.

Edit: Avengers was highest until Black Panther. So, yes.
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Corrik posted...

If you are unsure, ask about it.

Like, "are you saying they talked about this before?". And, I would have said no. It has never been a discussion in any star wars movie ever, despite impossible odds, despite perfect situations for it, and etc.

Post 61 I literally asked are you positing its never been done before? Why not? but ok
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Corrik posted...

If you are unsure, ask about it.

Like, "are you saying they talked about this before?". And, I would have said no. It has never been a discussion in any star wars movie ever, despite impossible odds, despite perfect situations for it, and etc.

Post 61 I literally asked are you positing its never been done before? Why not? but ok

Isn't that after the fact, Tony?
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Corrik posted...

The odds were impossible against the rebellion. The imperial fleet was not supposed to be there at all. Let alone a SSD and a bunch of SDs... And a shielded DS2 with a FULLY OPERATIONAL battlestation.

Count the number of ships on screen. The proportional number of ships is much higher in Return than in Last Jedi. I hate to go Threeps here, but the odds were much higher for survival in 6 than 8. The ships were also fully staffed and stocked and not running out of ammunition and fuel. Surprise is a tactical superiority to be sure, but the Rebels also had surprises of their own including the guerrilla tactics utilized by General Solo that almost single-handedly won the battle for them. Also consider it was mere minutes between arrival and shields down. The pitiful TLJ fleet had to contend with days of onslaught with fewer ships, people, no leadership, no supplies, and Disney.
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Also, I'd like to point out that I don't think TLJ is a flawless film. I personally believe that Finn's entirely subplot in the movie was pointless, and was in fact rendered even more pointless later on. I also believe that things might've worked out better if Hondo had informed people of her plan rather than act uncaring and seeming to do nothing. However, that might've been ballsed up because Poe established that he's cocky and reckless and might've worked against her wishes even if he knew what she was up to.

I just strongly disagree with the lightspeed ram criticism because it was cool and I don't think it's even remotely "world-breaking", and I do feel like it's overpushed (much like Leia's space flight) as a negative to heap negative criticism onto the film.
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