Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 412: A Bad Deal on the Good Book

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Nanis23
04/02/24 10:01:26 AM
#51:


God damn you people keep on being insufferable
Unfortunately, yes, it probably was the IDF fault and we took responsibility.
It was a accident that I am curios to know why it happened - was it a bad intel or did they miss the real target? or what?

But what disgusts me are comments like this-

FFDragon posted...
and yet it sounds like the idf got what they wanted out of this
The very idea that we are so "evil" that we for some reason target innocent people just for fun or "prevent them for providing food for hungry civillians" sickens me

Yes, this is antisemitism. Because your way of thinking is so fucking stupid that I can't excuse it any other way.
Of course, Israel will kill 5 innocents of 5 different countries and risk the diplomatic relations with them just for fun
Do you even listen to yourself or you are so full of hate that it blinds you?

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LightningStrikes
04/02/24 10:06:40 AM
#52:


With the greatest of respect I do not think accusing the IDF of war crimes is included in any working definition of antisemitism.

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PerfectChaosZ
04/02/24 10:09:34 AM
#53:


They are enforcing a famine in Gaza and mysteriously all the people the aid organizations send to help the hunger crisis end up dying
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hockeydude15
04/02/24 10:13:47 AM
#54:


Hate a military killing tens of thousands of civilians and keeping aid from outside countries to help those people, yep must be antisemitism!

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FFDragon
04/02/24 10:18:04 AM
#55:


It's not antisemitism, it's literally what is happening. The IDF is intentionally manufacturing a famine. It's way past random happenstance.

The people bombed are calling it out

"This is not only an attack against WCK, this is an attack on humanitarian organizations showing up in the most dire of situations where food is being used as a weapon of war," WCK CEO Erin Gore said. "This is unforgivable."

Other countries are calling it out

The European Union accused Israel on Monday of provoking famine and using starvation as a weapon of war

It is just the playbook as is.

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SirChris
04/02/24 10:19:04 AM
#56:


I actually have to remind myself that it's pretty hard to deal with constant propaganda so people who defend the idf are just brain washed more than anything.

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ChaosTonyV4
04/02/24 10:21:48 AM
#57:


I almost shared last night how Zionist Twitter was going full Hamas false flag on this because there were pictures from similar angles of ruined cars that were damaged differently, and they were getting literally 1000s of RTs and likes saying Hamas faked the damage for PR.

Turns out, they did THREE strikes on the convoy.

The 1sr car was hit, the survivors scrambled into the 2nd, it was hit like a kilometer down the road. After 3rd car picked up survivors from THAT strike, they were hit again another kilometer away.

By the way, their justification was that when the people were first getting into the convoy a person possibly had a weapon, so they were identified as a terrorist.

https://twitter.com/grylxndr/status/1775162665666564377

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FFDragon
04/02/24 10:23:56 AM
#58:


SirChris posted...
I actually have to remind myself that it's pretty hard to deal with constant propaganda so people who defend the idf are just brain washed more than anything.

I get that too, which is why I don't attack Nanis personally.

But this whole situation is so beyond fucked at this point.


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SirChris
04/02/24 10:25:17 AM
#59:


FFDragon posted...
I get that too, which is why I don't attack Nanis personally.

But this whole situation is so beyond fucked at this point.
Yeah of course. It's horrific tbh.

Right wing governments are just awful.

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LightningStrikes
04/02/24 10:30:30 AM
#60:


This is probably a good opportunity to point out that immediately after October 7th, public sympathy for Israel skyrocketed in a huge number of countries to its highest in decades. Since then, it has plummeted to its lowest ever.

I wonder what could have happened to cause that?

Oh and by the way, in an interview this week the former head of MI6 literally said that terrorists around the world are going to be very happy with Israels actions in Gaza (just like they were happy with the invasion of Iraq) because its going to be a massive radicalising event. This supposed mission to destroy terrorism is literally helping terrorism. This response is literally the worst thing Israel could have done for its own safety.

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Samurai7
04/02/24 10:35:41 AM
#61:


Poor Nanis

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FFDragon
04/02/24 10:36:08 AM
#62:


Now I will say I wouldn't put it past Hamas to have banked on this kind of response in order to drive recruitment (because I don't think they care much more about the general palestinian population than Israel does), but the fact remains that the IDF has still chosen the worst possible option every single time.

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LtMplusCATS
04/02/24 10:39:50 AM
#63:


At this point I just gotta feel bad for Nania, since they legitimately don't seems to realize how much they've been warped.
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Ranzoh
04/02/24 10:41:05 AM
#64:


There we are, yes, this can be an excellent debate. We should always have an answer that is the most optimal. Imagine a live debate that goes on when the question is posed but answered by a logician, Oh the logic of this post is fallacious, and so and so and you are a terrible human being if I can call you human. These things may seem efficient and save time, but it isnt the most optimal because there isnt no answer to the original question and only seeks to waste time with no progress and only serves to slow things down. We are all not robots that are objective and logical we have our biases and emotions. For example, objectively, we should try to right the wrongs with every group, but not everybody will get equal treatment. Thats what makes us human and we should admit that.

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FFDragon
04/02/24 10:45:45 AM
#65:


uh oh people are busting out the alts

who's trying to get modded

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Nanis23
04/02/24 10:50:16 AM
#66:


PerfectChaosZ posted...
They are enforcing a famine in Gaza and mysteriously all the people the aid organizations send to help the hunger crisis end up dying
Why
No seriously, why? can you explain why would it benefit Israel to do that?
I mean sure if Hamas gave a crap about Gaza's civiliains and they would surrender to help them, sure.
If it would make the civillains rebel against Hamas and fight them - sure.

But neither of those things happened.
We will not gain anything from doing this. We are already dealing with massive international pressure as it is

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KamikazePotato
04/02/24 10:55:23 AM
#67:


Hoo boy

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LtMplusCATS
04/02/24 10:56:30 AM
#68:


Nanis23 posted...
Why
No seriously, why? can you explain why would it benefit Israel to do that?


Everyone has been saying it for months, you just refuse to accept it.
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Nanis23
04/02/24 11:01:57 AM
#69:


SirChris posted...
I actually have to remind myself that it's pretty hard to deal with constant propaganda so people who defend the idf are just brain washed more than anything.
Propaganda? this is just real life. My life.
I live here. I know those people. I was those people. I served in the IDF and I know what it's like.
We are not evil. We are not murderers. We just want to live in peace and enjoy life.
Imagein you being called a evil murderer just because you want to live your life. Just because you don't want a suicide bomber to explode himself on the bus you are riding.
Imagine not wanting rockets to hit your home.
We just want peace and quiet :|

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LightningStrikes
04/02/24 11:14:30 AM
#70:


Well Nanis theres two aspects to that.

1) I generally believe that the vast majority of people in every country just want to live their lives in peace and dont want to impinge on others. The problem is what the Israeli government is doing, it is not the responsibility of most of the people who live in Israel themselves and I think everybody here recognises that. But that is a two way street and you dont have to (in fact should not) support what the government does either. I have two nationalities and both governments are a load of crooks!

2) Even if we take the best case scenario and assume that the IDFs actions are intended to be entirely defensive (and its not hard to find Israeli politicians who say otherwise), its a terrible strategy. This will absolutely lead to much greater risk of terrorism in Israel and around the world. So the IDFs actions are only making everybody less safe.

Like, I get that its scary, but you dont have to support it just because its your own country.

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Jakyl25
04/02/24 11:21:05 AM
#71:


LightningStrikes posted...
This response is literally the worst thing Israel could have done for its own safety.

Maybe not if they dont intend to leave anyone behind to radicalize

KamikazePotato posted...
https://twitter.com/nissimv/status/1711261388809568458

Original Text:

Twitter Translation:


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FFDragon
04/02/24 11:24:00 AM
#72:


I served in the US Air Force, some of the shit that the US military did was horrible in the name of "security."

The reason the IDF do things like this is because they know they can get away with it on an international level. Same as the US govt in Iraq. And yes, the oft stated reason for this recently has been "if there's no one left to radicalize, you can't have radicals." *thinking meme*

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Thorn
04/02/24 11:28:30 AM
#73:


I mean, when the Hague was asked to judge the situation in Gaza and whether it constituted a genocide I'm pretty sure they had a lot of quotes from Israeli government officials that sure sounded like they were looking to either cast guilt by association on Palestinian civilians or otherwise wanted them out of Gaza.

I normally wouldn't use Wikipedia as a "source" but they seem to have the most concise collection of a lot of these quotes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Israeli_attack_on_Gaza#Alleged_genocidal_intent

This isn't all of them, but just some that I think might speak to "why" the Israeli government might do some of these things:

Avi Dichter, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, called for the war to be "Gaza's Nakba" on Channel 12.[79] Ariel Kallner, another Member of the Knesset from the Likud party, similarly wrote on social media that there is "one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of [1948]. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join".[80] Amihai Eliyahu, Israeli Minister of Heritage, called for dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza.[79][81]

Israeli energy minister Israel Katz said "All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world."[82][63]

President of Israel Isaac Herzog blamed the "entire nation" of Palestine for the 7 October attack.[21] He further said "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians being not aware, not involved. It is absolutely not true."[63]

Yitzhak Kroizer, representing the extreme-right Otzma Yehudit party in the Knesset, stated in a radio interview that the "Gaza Strip should be flattened, and for all of them there is but one sentence, and that is death."[83] Tally Gotliv of the Likud party called for the use of nuclear weapons against Gaza.[83]

Major General Ghassan Alian, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, stated: "There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell".[73]

IDF Major general Giora Eiland wrote "Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist".[74] He added "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieving the goal."[74] Israeli historian and holocaust scholar Omer Bartov noted that no Israeli politician nor anyone in the IDF denounced this statement.[74]

The spokesperson for the Israeli army said, in regards to Israel's bombing of Gaza, "the emphasis is on damage not accuracy". This statement was interpreted by legal scholars as intention of destruction.[63]

Look, I'm not an expert or even really a novice on Israeli politics. But this sounds a bit more higher-up and official than, say, Marjorie Taylor Greene to use a US analogy. When you have cabinet ministers and the President of Israel saying thing like this it provides an answer to "Why would the Israeli government intentionally do [horrible thing] to civilians in Gaza?" just the answer isn't a very pleasant one.

Now, I wish this went without saying, but my criticism here extends only to the Israeli government. My sympathy lies with the civilians in Gaza, those in Israel who oppose the actions their government are taking, and Jewish people worldwide who are facing a rise in antisemitism as a result of everything that is happening in Gaza due to the actions of the Israeli government.

Criticism of the Israeli government is not, and should not, be taken as antisemitism or twisted to imply the speaker is referring to all of Israel or all Jewish people. I've largely tried to stay out of this discussion because it's just soul crushing in general and to be honest there have been some comments here the past half year that I'm a bit uncomfortable with in conflating the Israeli government with Israel as a whole - I'm extending the benefit of the doubt that they're using "Israel" to mean the government rather than the people as a whole in much the same way we commonly refer to actions by the US government as "The US did [x]" or "Florida just [y]" but I do feel a bit more clarity is warranted here specifically because of the rise in hate crimes that you generally don't see directed against - say - Floridians as a result of whatever shit DeSantis does.

I think shortly after the Oct 7th attacks someone (or multiple people) in this thread drew a parallel to 9/11 and America's response as a cautionary warning and I think that still rings true. 9/11 was a traumatic experience for the US and there was an understandable desire to strike back against those who attacked us. But in responding we ended up with massive civilian casualties and "lost sight" of the assumed objective and ended up - at the desire of the government we had at the time - invading an entirely unrelated country. And, especially in the early years, any domestic questioning of this had your patriotism questioned and international criticism was met with defiance and insults. By the time the national conversation had moved past the initial trauma enough to frankly discuss our response it was too late for us to really do anything without making things even worse than we had in some way.

Edit: Oh, I see some people beat me to my general points in a much more succinct way.

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FFDragon
04/02/24 11:33:12 AM
#74:


Thorn posted...
"Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieving the goal."

well there you go

Bombing humanitarian groups and putting the fear of death into anyone who dares to help is a great way to facilitate that goal.

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Kingfrost
04/02/24 11:35:16 AM
#75:


'Nanis23 posted...
Why
No seriously, why? can you explain why would it benefit Israel to do that?

The Israeli Government and the IDF are not best serving the interests of the Israeli people. They are serving their own interests. Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,"

Often, a government does not best serve its people. I would certainly argue that the far right-wing party in Israel's policy of propping up Hamas to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian State was not in the best interests of the Israeli People.

Leaders like Netanyahu and Donald Trump put themselves first. Not their people. They will cry the whole time saying they do, but their actions speak louder than words.
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ChaosTonyV4
04/02/24 11:38:07 AM
#76:


If the IDF wants to not get called evil, they should stop posting TikToks of them dancing while doing war crimes, digging through peoples underwear drawers, and setting C4 on unoccupied houses.

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LightningStrikes
04/02/24 12:19:06 PM
#77:


Jakyl25 posted...
Maybe not if they dont intend to leave anyone behind to radicalize

Good news! There will be an increase in terrorism because of this far outside of Gaza, so even if the IDF kill everyone they will still fail to destroy Hamas and related terrorist groups. Yet still they are continuing.

Also some of those quotes, man. How deranged do you have to be to want to nuke a tiny territory right next to you. At that point effectively nuking your own citizens as well. Wild.

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LightningStrikes
04/02/24 12:23:27 PM
#78:


But I also think the one bit of responsibility your every day Israeli citizen has is to depose this government as soon as possible. That is by far the most effective way for any change to happen (of course the incoming government also needs to want change which may be tough) as so far the Israeli government has made it clear they will keep going no matter what the rest of the world says.

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FFDragon
04/02/24 12:37:23 PM
#79:


https://twitter.com/AP/status/1775124304197308876

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Maniac64
04/02/24 1:47:12 PM
#80:


Nanis23 posted...

Nanis23 posted...
Imagein you being called a evil murderer just because you want to live your life. Just because you don't want a suicide bomber to explode himself on the bus you are riding.
Imagine not wanting rockets to hit your home.
We just want peace and quiet :|
Most the Palestinian citizens would say this same thing, but swap suicide bomber to IDF bomber blowing up the bus you are riding. Oh and they want to be allowed to stay in their home, not have it blown up or taken from them.

And unless you are actively and intentionally killing Palestinian civilians or aid workers no one is calling you an evil murderer.

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ChaosTonyV4
04/02/24 3:20:30 PM
#81:


https://twitter.com/usambisrael/status/1775191523354660871

Turns out one of the people killed was an American citizen.

Theyve crossed the line in the sand that Biden set, well see what happens.

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agesboy
04/02/24 8:38:36 PM
#82:


Iirc they were three British (one possibly Irish, but I haven't seen a confirmation), Australian, Polish, a US/Canadian dual citizen, and one Palestinian driver. I've seen a few official sources claim their own citizen

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LinkMarioSamus
04/03/24 5:00:38 AM
#83:


Keep in mind that Roman Polanski elicited sympathy from much of Hollywood for decades partly because he was born into a Jewish family and grew up through the Holocaust. This whole deal where seemingly any criticism of Israel gets filed off as anti-Semitism made me think of that.

Meanwhile Mel Gibson still gets work because of course.

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PeaceFrog
04/03/24 7:08:57 AM
#84:


That has nothing to do with the actions of the Israeli government, lms.

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PeaceFrog
04/03/24 8:48:51 AM
#85:


I'm researching my ballot for the PA primary and there's this Dean Phillips guy from Minnesota challenging Biden for the presidency. I've literally never seen this guy's name before.

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kevwaffles
04/03/24 8:49:05 AM
#86:


Wait until LMS finds out about Weinstein.

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FFDragon
04/03/24 9:37:06 AM
#87:


PeaceFrog posted...
I'm researching my ballot for the PA primary and there's this Dean Phillips guy from Minnesota challenging Biden for the presidency. I've literally never seen this guy's name before.

I thought for a second that was the screamy guy but apparently that was Howard Dean.

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AriaOfBolo
04/03/24 9:42:50 AM
#88:


Yeah I voted for some Williamson lady in my primary. There were a few people in there and she seemed not horrible!

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PeaceFrog
04/03/24 10:22:57 AM
#89:


I think a few good, heartfelt screams in politics would be quite nice these days

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LightningStrikes
04/03/24 10:42:07 AM
#90:


YAAAAAAAAAAA

You know, I think that was the first political meme I was ever aware of.

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YoBlazer
04/03/24 10:57:57 AM
#91:


The fact that one excited exclamation derailed Howard Dean's campaign is still crazy as fuck. The public's appetite for awkward and crazy back then was like a world removed from today.

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YoBlazer
04/03/24 11:02:47 AM
#92:


You know what, no. I'm being unfair to Dean. His YEAH wasn't crazy at all, it was a decent speech, he was just feeding off the crowd's energy, and he momentarily got a little too excited. The media overblew it and completely fucked him.

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swordz9
04/03/24 11:05:21 AM
#93:


To think back then an excited shout was enough to ruin your shot and now we have a literal piece of shit conman with a bazillion indictments running
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NFUN
04/03/24 11:13:32 AM
#94:


YoBlazer posted...
The fact that one excited exclamation derailed Howard Dean's campaign is still crazy as fuck. The public's appetite for awkward and crazy back then was like a world removed from today.
he got third out of four in the primary, barely beating Dick Gephardt. dude was already losing hard

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kevwaffles
04/03/24 11:39:35 AM
#95:


NFUN posted...
he got third out of four in the primary, barely beating Dick Gephardt. dude was already losing hard
In the first state after a very recent momentum swing. Inferring that the election was already definitively out of reach for him is just not true.

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LinkMarioSamus
04/03/24 12:20:36 PM
#96:


PeaceFrog posted...
That has nothing to do with the actions of the Israeli government, lms.

Yeah that was my frame of reference admittedly.

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Seanchan
04/03/24 12:58:38 PM
#97:


YoBlazer posted...
You know what, no. I'm being unfair to Dean. His YEAH wasn't crazy at all, it was a decent speech, he was just feeding off the crowd's energy, and he momentarily got a little too excited. The media overblew it and completely fucked him.

I feel like I remember hearing that part of the issue was that the "YEAH!" was so loud because it was picked up by a different mic than the rest of the speech, or something like that.

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PeaceFrog
04/03/24 7:36:28 PM
#98:


Seanchan posted...
I feel like I remember hearing that part of the issue was that the "YEAH!" was so loud because it was picked up by a different mic than the rest of the speech, or something like that.
That's my understanding as well.

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Thorn
04/04/24 7:55:09 AM
#99:


Weird update in the NY Civil Fraud case.

The court rejected the bond Trump obtained and basically said "you didn't fill out the forms correctly." Earlier yesterday this sounded to be like an embarrassing but easily fixable clerical stuff like forgetting to put down power of attorney and shit but it got a little more intriguing late last night.

Seems to be that the court wants the bond company (not Trump) to provide its current financial statement in order to make sure they're legit for the bond.

https://twitter.com/lawofruby/status/1775696709290496015

Text of thread for those like me who have a hard time getting the whole thing without a Twitter account (courtesy of threadreader)

Today, I learned that the court filing reflecting Trump's bond in the civil fraud case was "returned for correction" and specifically, for the inclusion of a current financial statement and power of attorney. But all is not what it seems. 1/

The financial statement that is missing does not seem to be Trump's. Rather, the court appears to be demanding these documents from Knight Specialty Insurance Co. to ensure that company is sufficiently capitalized and authorized to post the bond. 2/

As of tonight, those documents do not appear on the docket. 3/

Meanwhile, we still don't know what fee Trump paid for the bond or exactly what collateral he pledged, especially as Don Hanley gave slightly different accounts to various media outlets. 4/

But you know who likely DOES have all of those details? Retired federal judge Barbara Jones, the court-appointed monitor in the case. Under a 3/21/24 order, the Trump Org must give her advanced notice of their efforts to secure surety bonds. 5/

Image The information she is entitled to includes "any financial disclosures requested or required, any information provided in response to such requests, any representations made by the Trump Org. in connection with acquiring such bonds" 6/

"any personal guarantees made by any of the defendants, & any obligations of the Trump Organization required by the surety." 7/

And I can think of a courtroom full of journalists, as well as a bunch of lawyers in the New York Attorney General's office, who would love to know what Barbara Jones presumably knows right now. FIN

I highly doubt this causes the whole thing to blow up and we probably see them getting this worked out today but uh... I guess technically the clock is still running with the deadline being midnight tonight AFAIK.

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FFDragon
04/04/24 11:16:11 AM
#100:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
Turns out one of the people killed was an American citizen.

Theyve crossed the line in the sand that Biden set, well see what happens.


The Biden administration recently authorized the transfer of over 1,000 500-pound bombs and over 1,000 small-diameter bombs to Israel, according to three people familiar with the matter, adding to its arsenal despite US concerns over the countrys conduct in the war in Gaza.

The transfer authorization of the MK82 bombs and small-diameter bombs, more than 2,000 munitions in total, occurred on Monday, according to two of the people familiar.

The US is also engaging in new arms sales with the Israelis, however, including an $18 billion sale of F-15 fighter jets that the administration is preparing to approve, CNN reported on Monday.


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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person?
#theresafreakingghostafterus
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