Current Events > "I consciously add as much diversity as I can to my writing"

(+) Yeah! (+)

My only problem with diversity is if the minority characters get treated as tokens. This was one of my main problems with Glee where all the main characters were white with much better and engaging storylines than the minority characters who tend to be sidelined and given really shitty arcs (or no arcs at all). Otherwise, it's a creative choice and I won't stop anyone from doing it. If you wanna make the conscious decisions and have a bunch of big chested-big booba waifus that love to be submissive to the male characters, that's fine as well but you can bet your bottom I will criticize it though.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

I can't see how half the gang were marginalised though? Marston, Dutch, Arthur and Bill were white dudes who rob and kill people

They would be likely be racist people IRL and I guess I think it downplays what the era was like to show a happy smiling "we believe in equality" style criminal gang.

It was a racist time, show that. Make the characters flawed

Oh god I thought the last post was bad, but this argument is literally "This game isn't racist enough and should be more racist because there are a few characters who aren't openly racist and I feel they should be racist."

I just can't

ai123 posted...

Bad writing is bad writing.

A character being gay, or black, or female, does not drain an author of their ability to portray characters.

Absolutely correct, but It seems like a lot of these people aren't writers, they're activists. Writing a good story was never their objective.

*and I've seen people simultaneously criticize forced diversity while praising good examples (last one I saw was Dion from FF who is gay).

That being said AAA games have much deeper problems then forced diversity. Like forced battle passes, forced multiplayer, copy and paste gameplay, handholding, lack of art direction they ends up making a lot of 3D triple A games look the same.

deoxxys posted...

Absolutely correct, but It seems like a lot of these people aren't writers, they're activists.

Many good writers are also activists.

Writing a good story was never their objective.

Well then, they are a bad writer and their bad writing should be criticized. But it wasn't the diversity that made them bad.

ai123 posted...

Bad writing is bad writing.

A character being gay, or black, or female, does not drain an author of their ability to portray characters.

Indeed. It's usually just kind of shoving that in as a subplot where it makes no sense that baits the bad writing. Like, just let a character be, or make the plot make it make sense for them to give such exposition. Don't fucking trauma dump your entire life story because I rescued them from a dire wolf or something. I kill 20 dire wolves before breakfast.

Ain't nobody needed Krillin to explain shit about being a midget. He's just some guy that happens to be short, and he kicks ass, and risks all life on the planet for some cyborg booty.

Guide posted...

Don't fucking trauma dump your entire life story because I rescued them from a dire wolf or something. I kill 20 dire wolves before breakfast.

Is that only unacceptable when they tell you they're some form of LGBTQIA (for some reason)?

Because it happens with basically every NPC in these games.

Do something - they trust you now - receive information.

DrizztLink posted...

Is that only unacceptable when they tell you they're some form of LGBTQIA (for some reason)?

Because it happens with basically every NPC in these games.

Do something - they trust you now - receive information.

Of course it's only unacceptable then. I love hearing about orcs being exiled for being too nice for the umpteenth time.

Shut up, we've both been here long enough to know I'm not one of those.

edit: obligatory sarcasm tag for the mods

Guide posted...

Shut up, we've both been here long enough to know I'm not one of those.

Then why are you bringing up a video game trope that's been around for (most likely) longer than you've been alive?

ai123 posted...

Well then, they are a bad writer and their bad writing should be criticized. But it wasn't the diversity that made them bad.

I don't think anyone is saying that. It's just that bad writers use diversity as a tool for virtue signaling and pretending like their work is more legitimate. Criticizing the poorly implemented diversity is criticizing bad writing.

Don't write characters like Rose from Star Wars

DrizztLink posted...

Then why are you bringing up a video game trope that's been around for (most likely) longer than you've been alive?

...To describe an example relevant to the subject matter? Why are you fishing for something that isn't there?

Guide posted...

...To describe an example relevant to the subject matter? Why are you fishing for something that isn't there?

Because the entire premise of your example is irrelevant.

Remember High Guardian Spice, anyone?

DrizztLink posted...

Because the entire premise of your example is irrelevant.

I mean, it's not. You just came into this looking for something, but you started from the wrong place to begin with.

specialkid8 posted...

I don't think anyone is saying that. It's just that bad writers use diversity as a tool for virtue signaling and pretending like their work is more legitimate. Criticizing the poorly implemented diversity is criticizing bad writing.

Yeah, this is bs. They don't criticize the writing. They criticize diversity and blame it for the poor outcome. Look how many people complain about something before it even comes out.

specialkid8 posted...

I don't think anyone is saying that. It's just that bad writers use diversity as a tool for virtue signaling and pretending like their work is more legitimate. Criticizing the poorly implemented diversity is criticizing bad writing.

A bad writer is going to produce bad writing whether they have diverse characters or not.

There's nothing inherent in black, female, or gay, fictional characters that make them more difficult to write, or to integrate into a story.

The difference is that, when a minority character is written badly people claim they are 'shoehorned' in because of 'virtue signalling'. As if the problem doesn't arise from the author's lack of competence, but from his desire to include minority characters.

We're back to treating straight white male as the default. One that you better have a bloody good reason to deviate from. And that's bullshit.

lolife67 posted...

Yeah, this is bs. They don't criticize the writing. They criticize diversity and blame it for the poor outcome. Look how many people complain about something before it even comes out.

Like the Mario movie, and Barbie, the former having attacks retracted and being heralded as "anti-woke" when it was successful. Ghostbusters, I think, is still a favorite of the "get woke go broke" crowd that claim to only care about writing.

Ive noticed that women and minorities are not allowed to have bad media. Its usually blamed on diversity. Where is something with majority white cast bombs people shrug and go eh bad movie, whatever.

Its definitely not equal.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Do you have any examples of this?

GranAures posted...

Like the Mario movie, and Barbie, the former having attacks retracted and being heralded as "anti-woke" when it was successful. Ghostbusters, I think, is still a favorite of the "get woke go broke" crowd that claim to only care about writing.

LightningAce11 posted...

Ive noticed that women and minorities are not allowed to have bad media. Its usually blamed on diversity. Where is something with majority white cast bombs people shrug and go eh bad movie, whatever.

Its definitely not equal.

Yup!

@GranAures

Like the Mario movie, and Barbie, the former having attacks retracted and being heralded as "anti-woke" when it was successful. Ghostbusters, I think, is still a favorite of the "get woke go broke" crowd that claim to only care about writing.

Yeah, I don't care for it, but there's a reason I bring up Bayformers as it's opposite. No concern of diversity and is crap that despite the audience clamoring for quality first allowed this movie to make it to 5 films. Even if the first was passable, it should have died at 2 or 3.

Not just bad, but it feels like it's aiming to be a porno parody of the franchise, but can't go to the M or X Rated extreme so that it can be deemed appropriate as officially licensed Transformers.

Meanwhile GB 2016 was ignored in the next two films.

Antiyonder posted...

No concern of diversity

Unfair.

Bay included like 3 different black Transformers.

Of course, they were minstrel-level caricatures, but an attempt was made.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

So you brought something up which you have no examples of just so you could say "ha, gotcha" when I also don't know what the fuck you're talking about? How do you want me to respond to this?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

that's a tall ask

LightningAce11 posted...

Ive noticed that women and minorities are not allowed to have bad media. Its usually blamed on diversity. Where is something with majority white cast bombs people shrug and go eh bad movie, whatever.

Its definitely not equal.

Relevant YouTube video on this phenomenon (it's a long one though):

https://youtu.be/DUziUNg8LTw

DnDer posted...

The further away you are from systemic and institutional structures that would reinforce cultural norms, the more likely you are to experience and develop your own in a way that may run contrary to what's commonly accepted.

And, in that era, there was no place further away from society than out on the range doing cowboy stuff. That's almost the point of the entire Western genre.

Thank you for the only answer that didn't feel snarky

StealThisSheen posted...

...Wow. Never thought I'd see somebody so against diversity that a group of all white guys with different backgrounds was still too much for them.

What a cheeky misinterpretation of what I was trying to say. It felt cliche

haloiscoolisbak posted...

What a cheeky misinterpretation of what I was trying to say.

I really don't think it was, considering what you followed it up with.

No concept of devils advocate on this board

haloiscoolisbak posted...

No concept of devils advocate on this board

You literally chose to play devil's advocate against diversity with some of the most questionable posts in the topic. Not sure what you expected, really.

StealThisSheen posted...

You literally chose to play devil's advocate against diversity with some of the most questionable posts in the topic. Not sure what you expected, really.

Less hostility.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

No concept of devils advocate on this board

For real. Which is exactly what the opposition wanted in the first place.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Less hostility.

...So, were you playing devil's advocate, or not? Because the entire point of playing devil's advocate is, you know, taking a contentious viewpoint to provoke people. Why would you not expect hostility on a subject like this, when it basically sounded like you were arguing not just against diversity, but in favor of MORE racism?

Okay so I'll just try to clear up a minor point before everyone thinks I'm a stupid racist

I didn't think black people didn't exist in the old west, I just was sceptical of a mixed race gang where everyone peacefully coexisted

Look at the movie Lincoln for an example of a film that tackles it right IMO

haloiscoolisbak posted...

No concept of devils advocate on this board

That's because nobody fucking likes the devil's advocate.

StealThisSheen posted...

...So, were you playing devil's advocate, or not? Because the entire point of playing devil's advocate is, you know, taking a contentious viewpoint to provoke people. Why would you not expect hostility on a subject like this, when it basically sounded like you were arguing not just against diversity, but in favor of MORE racism?

I was trying to generate discussion on something that always struck me as jingoistic. I even said in my first post the need to have representation outweighs exact historical accuracy

Edit - jingoistic the complete wrong word.

Yeah I think it'd be wise to just back away from the topic for awhile.

StealThisSheen posted...

Yeah I think it'd be wise to just back away from the topic for awhile.

Will do. Just wanted everyone to not hate me before I did

haloiscoolisbak posted...

Will do. Just wanted everyone to not hate me before I did

Too late, I'm going to build a hate shrine for you. I'll hate your entire descendant line.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Thank you, it was 2am my time(Sydney) last night when I made my first post so I probably wasn't as tactful as I could have been when discussing an issue involving race

haloiscoolisbak posted...

I was trying to generate discussion on something that always struck me as jingoistic. I even said in my first post the need to have representation outweighs exact historical accuracy

You entered the topic as a self-described "history nerd" and then displayed an ignorance of how many black cowboys there were in the Old West so you could say Red Dead Redemption 2 was unrealistic and inaccurate because white people were friends with black people and not universally antagonistic towards them

And then you ignored it when people pointed out the actual demographic numbers of black cowboys in that time and that they held all kinds of positions in society, including some very respected ones

So you can stop talking about how you're just trying to advocate for "historical accuracy" by wanting RDR2 to be more racist

TMOG posted...

You entered the topic as a self-described "history nerd" and then displayed an ignorance of how many black cowboys there were in the Old West so you could say Red Dead Redemption 2 was unrealistic and inaccurate because white people were friends with black people and not universally antagonistic towards them

And then you ignored it when people pointed out the actual demographic numbers of black cowboys in that time and that they held all kinds of positions in society, including some very respected ones

So you can stop talking about how you're just trying to advocate for "historical accuracy" by wanting RDR2 to be more racist

Read post 140 of mine I guess to cover my response to most of that. Even the black cowboy gang I learnt about, the Rufus gang, appeared to have no white people in it.

As for the part about me ignoring posts, I was trying to respond to multiple users jumping down my throat at once. Wasn't cherry picking the easy posts

Oh and fwiw(might make at least one person empathise a bit) I was very stoned at 2am last night when making these posts