Poll of the Day > Why don't America or Europe recognize the RoC as the true government of China?

(+) Yeah! (+)

They hold the capital and would be much more friendly to the west than the ccp

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You mean Taiwan, right?

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Well, it's simple. They don't hold the capital, and the CCP wouldn't be friendly to the west if we did.

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Because they control like 0% of China.

Regardless of your feeling on the PRC, this talking point is super dumb, it's like asking why Russia doesn't consider the Iroquois Confederacy the rightful rulers of America.

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There are a handful of countries in the world that just need to be recognized officially globally, if we even have a hope of wanting things to work better.

Recognizing Taiwan and China separately is part of that.

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Because the Chinese are very open about how violently antagonistic they would be to anyone who actually acknowledges Taiwan as a separate entity, let alone the "real" China.

Taiwan is neither enough of a threat or an asset to warrant the US to care about it vis-a-vis realpolitik, and regardless of how often either side of the political spectrum shouts about freedoms or democracy or civil rights or human interest, realpolitik and economic power are pretty much the only things that actually matter in global politics.
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I feel like people are taking Muscles' trollish shitpost (or shitpostish troll topic?) a lot more seriously than they should.

Nichtcrawler X posted...

There are a handful of countries in the world that just need to be recognized officially globally, if we even have a hope of wanting things to work better.

Recognizing Taiwan and China separately is part of that.

While recognizing Taiwan would be a great way to stick it to China, it would probably be disastrous for Taiwan.


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Why should the US or Europe be the boss of that part of the world? We can try to advocate for people who are mistreated or not represented by government, or shed light on wrongdoing through journalism

But who are we to decide what is right or wrong for the major power in that region unilaterally? It isnt like western cultures have a good track record when it comes to freedom and human rights

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Nichtcrawler X posted...

There are a handful of countries in the world that just need to be recognized officially globally, if we even have a hope of wanting things to work better.

Recognizing Taiwan and China separately is part of that.

The west shouldn't recognize the ccp as anything more than thugs and bullies

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Muscles posted...

The west shouldn't recognize the ccp as anything more than thugs and bullies

>_>

Muscles has *got* to be working a gimmick here.

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Muscles posted...

The west shouldn't recognize the ccp as anything more than thugs and bullies

oh yeah cause the US government is so good and nice lmao get the fuck outta here

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Muscles posted...

The west shouldn't recognize the ccp as anything more than thugs and bullies

Yes, my next step after recognizing countries that already factually exist, would be to divide countries that have just grown too large for themselves, into multiple smaller countries. China is definitely one of those.

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Muscles posted...

The west shouldn't recognize the ccp as anything more than thugs and bullies

how do we know that we are getting an accurate portrayal of China and the CCP here in the west?

all my life Ive heard of all these rotten things that the Chinese government does, but the US government does all sorts of rotten things too

how can I be confident that everything I hear about China isnt being drummed up or overblown as propaganda against a rival?

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Zeus posted...

I feel like people are taking Muscles' trollish shitpost (or shitpostish troll topic?) a lot more seriously than they should.

If we stopped taking shitposts seriously there'd literally be no conversation on PotD at all.
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Nichtcrawler X posted...

Yes, my next step after recognizing countries that already factually exist, would be to divide countries that have just grown too large for themselves, into multiple smaller countries. China is definitely one of those.

I think they tried that a bunch of times

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When did I ever say the US government was good? They have done a lot of terrible, horrific things but the ccp is comic book evil, it's like they watched Star Wars and thought Palpatine was a good role model

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Muscles posted...

When did I ever say the US government was good? They have done a lot of terrible, horrific things but the ccp is comic book evil, it's like they watched Star Wars and thought Palpatine was a good role model

I mean he brought stability to a government that previously couldn't resolve a simple trade dispute without turning it into effectively a massive galaxy-wide incident.

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Metalsonic66 posted...

I think they tried that a bunch of times

Didn't they make a movie or two about that?

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Muscles posted...

When did I ever say the US government was good? They have done a lot of terrible, horrific things but the ccp is comic book evil, it's like they watched Star Wars and thought Palpatine was a good role model

why are they evil? What do we actually know for certain?

not saying you are wrong

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Metalsonic66 posted...

I think they tried that a bunch of times

There's actually an old Chinese proverb that goes something like "That which is apart must inevitably come together, that which is together will inevitably separate".

Basically, nations break apart and reform of their own accord over time. Attempts to force the issue (like people constantly taking apart Poland) tends to have the effect of making the pieces involved even more determined to pull back together (like Poland, or East/West Germany).

An outside force breaking up China would probably be the surest way to guarantee that everyone in China would fight to reunify.
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Muscles posted...

When did I ever say the US government was good? They have done a lot of terrible, horrific things but the ccp is comic book evil, it's like they watched Star Wars and thought Palpatine was a good role model

From my point of view the Jedi are evil

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Mead posted...

why are they evil? What do we actually know for certain?

not saying you are wrong

It's always worth noting that a lot of the things Russia and China do as part of their political agenda are spurred by a perception that THE WEST is a monolithic force that is opposed to them, and they need to defend themselves against aggression.

And one of the reasons why they always scoff when we try to criticize them on the basis of civil rights is because they're fully aware of how full of shit we are when we do it.

The Chinese declare sovereignty over a particular patch of sea, the US and British immediately fly plans over the disputed territory as if to say "lolno". And then the Chinese look out across that water, and they see South Korea and Japan as strong US allies, along with Taiwan as a constant thorn in their side, ringing them in.

Now imagine how the US would perceive things if the Chinese put military bases in Cuba, Greenland, Canada, and Mexico and started sending Chinese planes flying over US shipping lanes just off our coast. We'd be nuking Beijing by noon tomorrow.

Perspective is a funny thing.
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faramir77 posted...

From my point of view the Jedi are evil

You'd be right.
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Muscles posted...

When did I ever say the US government was good? They have done a lot of terrible, horrific things but the ccp is comic book evil, it's like they watched Star Wars and thought Palpatine was a good role model

you should read about the "White Terror" and events of the Chinese revolutionary war. I don't think history looks back too fondly on the Chinese Nationalist Party either. Their only saving grace was that their western allies were quite fond of fascism too.

acesxhigh posted...

you should read about the "White Terror" and events of the Chinese revolutionary war. I don't think history looks back too fondly on the Chinese Nationalist Party either. Their only saving grace was that their western allies were quite fond of fascism too.

Speaking of White... that reminds me of something that most Westerners have completely forgotten about, but Russians never did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

Western interventionism in general (and American interventionism specifically) was a huge part of the 20th century (and in some cases one of the huge negatives of Wilsonian ideology), and a lot of the "bad guys" see those things in a very different context than Americans do. Usually in the context of hiding our own imperialistic, evil actions behind the thin veneer of bullshit morality.

Russians have basically spent the last hundred years being fully convinced that the US wanted them broken and weak. And the hundred or so years before that they were fighting "The Great Game" with the British. It's not entirely surprising that they question our motives for things nearly as much as we question theirs.
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Blightzkrieg posted...

Because they control like 0% of China.

Regardless of your feeling on the PRC, this talking point is super dumb, it's like asking why Russia doesn't consider the Iroquois Confederacy the rightful rulers of America.

Srsly are all his topics this dumb?


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FrndNhbrHdCEman posted...

Srsly are all his topics this dumb?

I dont like to say mean things about muscles

so Ill just leave this topic now

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Mead posted...

why are they evil? What do we actually know for certain?

not saying you are wrong

The whole oppression thing is pretty evil, say what you want about the USA they won't send you to a labor camp and kill your family for stating "my government is corrupt and evil"

The more authoritarian you are the more evil you are

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Muscles posted...

The whole oppression thing is pretty evil, say what you want about the USA they won't send you to a labor camp and kill your family for stating "my government is corrupt and evil"

Yeah they really pat Snowden on the back, didn't they

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Mead posted...

I dont like to say mean things about muscles

so Ill just leave this topic now

Gotcha. Wish he was joking. Because this feels like listening to someone who stares at solar eclipses.

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Muscles posted...

the USA they won't send you to a labor camp and kill your family for stating "my government is corrupt and evil"

no theyll do it to families legally applying for asylum, separate them from their kids, and just lose a lot of the kids to unknown fates or detain them long enough that the whereabouts of the parents becomes unknown and the kids are now orphans never knowing if theyll see their parents again all because there were gangs running rampant where they were born and the world power in their half of the world decided it was better to drum up nationalistic fears in order to control people rather than do the actual kind of outreach and aid in infrastructure to our impoverished neighbors in ways that we have long known actually work and make both us and our neighboring allies safer and more prosperous

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Muscles posted...

say what you want about the USA they won't send you to a labor camp and kill your family for stating "my government is corrupt and evil"

No, we usually do it based on racism instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_and_reservation_inequality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_migrant_detentions
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Mead posted...

why are they evil? What do we actually know for certain?

Doing a holocaust is pretty evil, I think.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_migrant_detentions

...two of these things are not like the others, two of these things do not belong...

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GanonsSpirit posted...

Doing a holocaust is pretty evil, I think.

it certainly is, but how do I know what is actually happening there? I cant imagine the US is portrayed in a very favorable light in their news over there, how can I be assured that stories I read about the Uighers or other things are more than propaganda?

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Taiwan will be recognised when WWIII is initiated. It's the de facto replacement government after the CCP is displaced.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Taiwan will be recognised when WWIII is initiated. It's the de facto replacement government after the CCP is displaced.

stop trying to subject us eyeroll injuries

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Mead posted...

it certainly is, but how do I know what is actually happening there? I cant imagine the US is portrayed in a very favorable light in their news over there, how can I be assured that stories I read about the Uighers or other things are more than propaganda?

Maybe because the world is reporting on it and not just the US?
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We generally have a better idea of what's going on in China than most people realize, and more than China is willing to admit, there are literally millions of Chinese people living outside of China. It's not like North Korea.

You should be willing to accept a lot of the information coming out of China and verified by independent reporters and foreign governments (like the concentration camps in Xinjiang), while at the same time be skeptical of a lot of the rumours that people spread outside of China with no first hand knowledge of the country (there are mass covid infections in China that the CCP is covering up). It's not that mysterious.

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