Poll of the Day > When will society acknowledge how psychologically abusive video games are?

(+) Yeah! (+)

The most recent path of exile league is basically "sacrifice item for chance of a better item".
All of these online games are about manipulating players into playing by turning them into addicts.
There are people online (you might be one of them) that are paid to promote these products. We have ex-PotDers that are now being paid to promote said products.

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Judgmenl posted...

"sacrifice item for chance of a better item".

This is one of the problems with Emporea. To rank up an item you have to combine two items of equal rank... fair enough.

So to get a tier 8 item you would need 8^2 level 1 items to complete all the fusions... which is rather time consuming.

However, you can also fuse under-tiered items for a chance at breaking. If it's 1 level under tiered it's a 50% chance, and then a 25% chance, 12.5% chance and so on (so in a perfect world the math is about even)

...

Or you can pay to just... fuse. so a tier 8 item, instead of requiring hours of grinding to get a pair of Tier 7s, can be done with just one tier 8 and any other item... if you wanna pay

luckily if a fusion fails you only lose the lower quality of the two items, not both

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Judgmenl posted...

When will society acknowledge how psychologically abusive video games are?

Never, because the people paying attention are mostly the people who are making money off it, or who are willing to be bribed by those people.

There was a moment of hope when EA pushed things a bit too far and actual governments started looking into it, but then everyone got distracted and we all went back to cynically not giving a shit anymore.
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Stop playing and following that game. Its ruining your life. Some people can play stuff like that but it is fucking you up. Delete it.

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Really?!

You say recent games are psychological traps designed to create addicts?

Really?!

You're the first to come that realization.

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Mead posted...

Stop playing and following that game. Its ruining your life. Some people can play stuff like that but it is fucking you up. Delete it.

I could have made it about any other game, it was just what came to mind at the moment.

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Judgmenl posted...

I could have made it about any other game, it was just what came to mind at the moment.

you make a lot of topics about how you hate that game so much but that youve played it for something like thousands of hours

iirc you even made a topic at one point about how you were done with the game but you were back to playing and talking about it again within a short period of time

it sounds to me like it has turned into a very real and not hyperbolic addiction and it seems like it is doing harm to your psyche

I only know what you post but that is the perception I get from your topics. A lot is known about gaming addictions nowadays and there are all sorts of cognitive behavior therapy that can help you get to a point where you can just enjoy other things again and not have your life revolve around a game you dont even like playing. It might be worth looking into it.

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I am just being over dramatic.
Out of the past 10 leagues (past 2 and a half years), I've played 6 of them. There were leagues I was moderately satisfied with (Synthesis, Heist) and leagues I really struggled with (Blight, Ritual). The problem is I really had a bad experience with the most recent one (Ritual), which has caused me to look to dramatically changing how to play the game (I've basically been playing exclusively on a challenge mode for the past 3 years).

The game is definitely rage inducing, and it's become a meme that I am quitting the game every other week (not just on PotD), but it is genuinely shaping how I think about video games.

And if I could find something equally enjoyable, I would, The problem is I look for / enjoy games games I can put heavy investment in.

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And I'm going to go to bed now.

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Judgmenl posted...

The problem is I look for / enjoy games games I can put heavy investment in.

I think I do the same thing sometimes. For me it is usually roguelikes/roguelites

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Judgmenl posted...

And if I could find something equally enjoyable, I would, The problem is I look for / enjoy games games I can put heavy investment in.

Have you ever looked into Factorio? It seems right up your alley as far as programming-style problem solving goes, and offers enormous potential to invest yourself without relying on stuff like randomized rewards to artificially lengthen the game (and if you do find that something is too tedious, it's relatively easy to either find a mod to fix it or write one yourself).

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People talk about stuff like this all the time, though I think it's a stretch to call them "abusive". Addictive maybe, which is its own problem for sure

CoorsLight posted...

People talk about stuff like this all the time, though I think it's a stretch to call them "abusive". Addictive maybe, which is its own problem for sure

its a gray area but there is some overlap

some developers absolutely use tactics to prey on known gambling addict behaviors in games that target young people

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I would try to avoid games like that. Plenty of games are still more likes books/movies. You can start it and finish it in a certain amount of time.

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ReturnOfFa posted...

I would try to avoid games like that. Plenty of games are still more likes books/movies. You can start it and finish it in a certain amount of time.

I like games like that a lot more but I guess he likes grindy/mechanically deep games. Personally they are kinda antithetical to what I enjoy in a game so I'm not good for recommending a good one that's not addictive

CoorsLight posted...

I like games like that a lot more but I guess he likes grindy/mechanically deep games. Personally they are kinda antithetical to what I enjoy in a game so I'm not good for recommending a good one that's not addictive

I feel like certain tactics/strategy games can give that still?

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Path of Exile loot system is god damn horrible.

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SunWuKung420 posted...

Really?!

You say recent games are psychological traps designed to create addicts?

Really?!

You're the first to come that realization.

Rampage stole so many quarters from me in the 1980s.
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When will society acknowledge how psychologically abusive video games are?

Judgmenl posted...

The most recent path of exile league is basically "sacrifice item for chance of a better item".
All of these online games are about manipulating players into playing by turning them into addicts.
There are people online (you might be one of them) that are paid to promote these products. We have ex-PotDers that are now being paid to promote said products.

Which is like asking when will society acknowledge what terrible scumbags politicians are and then citing Bernie Sanders as an example. While politicians generally suck, very few are as two-faced and opportunistic as Bernie "Democrat only during Presidential Elections" Sanders. You're painting with too broad a brush in your topic title.

Bernie and Path of Exiles are exceptions, not the general rule. There are still tons of great games out there and, presumably, at least a few halfway decent politicians.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Never, because the people paying attention are mostly the people who are making money off it, or who are willing to be bribed by those people.

There was a moment of hope when EA pushed things a bit too far and actual governments started looking into it, but then everyone got distracted and we all went back to cynically not giving a shit anymore.

Plus they're more focused on the sex and violence.

SunWuKung420 posted...

You say recent games are psychological traps designed to create addicts?

A small subsect of recent games.. well, maybe it's not necessarily that small because it's hard to keep track of the millions of cell phone games and I guess they might outnumber traditional games.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Rampage stole so many quarters from me in the 1980s.

The most addicting thing about video games is playing them.

Well, maybe collecting them is also up there for some of us, lol

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adjl posted...

Have you ever looked into Factorio? It seems right up your alley as far as programming-style problem solving goes, and offers enormous potential to invest yourself without relying on stuff like randomized rewards to artificially lengthen the game (and if you do find that something is too tedious, it's relatively easy to either find a mod to fix it or write one yourself).

I have the game. Someone gifted it to me years ago. Every once in a while there is a single player game that I get into for a few weeks and put around 100 hours into them (Rimworld, Battletech, Terraria) and then never touch the game again, but in Factorio's case I thiink I put like 10 minutes in and that was it. It didn't really interest me. Single Player games don't really interest me anymore.

ReturnOfFa posted...

Plenty of games are still more likes books/movies.

Yea but I don't like these games anymore. Used to like them as a child, but the older I get, the more I'd rather just watch an anime or something. I was really into the Trails series for a few years, but I have very little desire to get them anymore. latest non-Trails story driven game I got was DQXI a few years ago and didn't even finish it.

CoorsLight posted...

grindy/mechanically deep games

Si senor chewster.

Zeus posted...

Bernie and Path of Exiles are exceptions, not the general rule. There are still tons of great games out there and, presumably, at least a few halfway decent politicians.

Hah, Zeus you are great. Bernie is definitely who I think of when I think of a manipulative politician. I think basically everyone beyond "I don't care give me free stuff" progressives can agree on that.


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Judgmenl posted...

Single Player games don't really interest me anymore.

That's really going to limit you as far as avoiding artificial lengthening strategies goes, then. By their very nature, multiplayer games almost have to incorporate some kind of hook to keep their active player base as large as they can, particularly if they're funded by recurrent spending models. If they don't, they struggle to maintain enough of a player base for players to have anyone to play with. That's generally going to mean a progression system, randomized rewards, or both.

That said, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, many games use such systems to manipulate players into spending money on microtransactions, but there are plenty of examples of games that just use them to add an extra layer of motivation on top of "it's fun to play" and make players feel like they've accomplished something with each session. I would actually characterize PoE as the latter: Its loot system is certainly not without its issues (if nothing else, playing SSF is pretty gimped, but trading is a major pain, which is fundamentally a broken concept), but it's completely possible to have a good time and clear enough content to be entertaining without having to delve into the ridiculous RNG-fest that is obsessively min/maxing characters. The game doesn't coerce you into spending money (by the time I felt that shelling out for extra stash tabs was reasonable, I'd already spent more than enough time playing to justify spending $20, and that was all I ever spent for over 500 hours), it just offers genuinely optional purchases that can enhance the experience.

Of course, by the sounds of things, you struggle to accept not min/maxing, and that's why PoE hurts you so much. That, I'm afraid, is on you, not on PoE. Sure, PoE could stand to make its min/maxing process (significantly) less terrible, but it also doesn't make it necessary to have a good time (source: I had a good time without min/maxing). If it hurts you to not min/max, then that's you abusing yourself, not being abused by the game.

Maybe give Grim Dawn a shot if you want a similarly deep ARPG experience without such egregious RNG shenanigans. I find it does a much better job of balancing the whole "build-enabling gear" concept (a sizable chunk of the gear that would be considered build-enabling/defining can be target farmed), and the easy respecs make it very reasonable and intuitive to approach it with the attitude of "I'm going to build around the gear I've found." It also has just as much (if not more) build variety going for it, with plenty of mechanics to streamline leveling alts to try out other builds.

Judgmenl posted...

in Factorio's case I thiink I put like 10 minutes in and that was it. It didn't really interest me.

10 minutes doesn't sound like much. I'm not sure you'd even have started to automate anything by then. If it really doesn't interest you, then it doesn't interest you, but I might recommend giving it more of a shot and at least trying to get to the point of building an actual factory (that, or watching an episode or two of a playthrough to see more experienced players take that proper dive into it), since that's the real meat of the game. Anything to do with manual mining or hand crafting is basically just a crutch to use until you set things up properly.

Zeus posted...

A small subsect of recent games

Unfortunately, it's not that small. It's most of the AAA space (virtually all AAA multiplayer games, which is most AAA games because they're still trying to push the "nobody wants single-player" angle) and almost the entire F2P market (even the stuff that isn't mobile shovelware). Pretty much any game that benefits from retaining an active player base (whether through direct monetization, or indirectly because an active player base is a prerequisite for new players to jump on board) is going to be trying to keep players engaged, which inevitably means some manner of psychological manipulation. Most single-player games will also see similar mechanics included, since if they don't, people are going to be more inclined to play games that do make them feel like they're accomplishing something.

Again, though, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Having a sense of progression and a feeling of being rewarded is fun. This is why RPG mechanics have become so popular, and more recently, why rogueli(k/t)es are such a big slice of the indie market (and are often judged on their meta-progression systems). Rewards and manipulation often go hand in hand, but ultimately, that's the fundamental concept of selling games in the first place (promise people the reward of a fun game to manipulate them into giving you money for it), which is not inherently bad. It's something that needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and there's a lot of subjectivity involved in determining what is acceptable and/or enjoyable.

It's also not a new thing. It's being applied in a lot of new ways, but these same principles of providing infrequent rewards to keep players engaged was basically the driving force behind the the entire MMO genre (whether funded by subscriptions or microtransactions), and before that, it funded arcades by dangling the "you'll do better next time" carrot in front of players. There's plenty of room to argue that it's always been abusively manipulative, but it's definitely not a new problem.

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/eyeroll
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Isn't Europe trying to pass laws to try and prevent video game companies to stop being assholes?

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