Board 8 > Board 8 Ranks: The Marvel Cinematic Universe (PHASE TWO!)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Inviso posted...

The one thing I'm noticing about the GotG2 stuff is that a lot of it is coming from people who didn't submit lists, which might explain the disparity in opinion compared to the list's outcome.

Yeah I was gonna submit but I didnt finish the rewatches in time

This one flip flops 2 and 3 (Im better at tiering than actually ranking) think my 1 goes out tomorrow

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Black Panther is a weird movie, in that I overall liked it, but I thought T'challa's plot was the least interesting part of it. His climactic battle at the end felt so boring compared to what was going on elsewhere.

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Lightning Strikes posted...

But what if like 20 people have it in their top 5 and all go Im probably the only person who has it this high?

Anyway, heres my top 8 predix:

114 Guardians of the Galaxy
183 Avengers Endgame
183 Avengers Infinity War
197 Captain America: The Winter Soldier
233 The Avengers
256 Captain America: Civil War
258 Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2
297 Thor Ragnarok

these predictions are so terrible, that if they're close to correct, I'm forcing Vis to remove my participation from this project and redo the whole topic

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I remember the Critical Drinker taking issue with how T'Challa has to prove himself fit to rule Wakanda despite the events of Civil War (I don't remember Civil War very well, but beating up Avengers doesn't make you ruler material methinks), calling it "character development in reverse", and then he also felt like the whole idea of "tribal" Africans with technology was a total mismatch. Okay.

And MauLer did a rage video on BP (his second after The Last Jedi), but in the comments he asked "how does a Stone Age people mine Vibranium?". I don't really understand this complaint, especially considering the ancient Wakandans were probably more like Bronze Age people.

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I do think Wakandas aesthetic is pretty racist.

Like there are actual cities in Africa that look and feel african and African nations with modern militaries and none of them feature thatched roof skyscrapers or rpgs shaped like tribal spears for some reason.

Like Addis Ababa is a legitimately ancient city that has flourished in East Africa and it looks so fucking cool and also looks nothing at all like Wakanda.

The vision of Wakanda makes it seem like africa is synonymous with like nomadic "savage" lifestyles that exist mainly in the western imperial imagination - but its okay because theyre rich now and they continue to use MAGIC spears and MODERN thatched roof huts.


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Following the announcement of a Wakanda series for Disney+ a week or two ago, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Black Panther 2 has been or will be quietly cancelled, and the Wakanda series is intended as a replacement.

GavsEvans123 posted...

Following the announcement of a Wakanda series for Disney+ a week or two ago, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Black Panther 2 has been or will be quietly cancelled, and the Wakanda series is intended as a replacement.

Theyre actively casting for the movie as of 3 days ago. They wouldnt cancel a sequel to a billion dollar series opener.

Eddv posted...

I do think Wakandas aesthetic is pretty racist.

Like there are actual cities in Africa that look and feel african and African nations with modern militaries and none of them feature thatched roof skyscrapers or rpgs shaped like tribal spears for some reason.

Like Addis Ababa is a legitimately ancient city that has flourished in East Africa and it looks so fucking cool and also looks nothing at all like Wakanda.

The vision of Wakanda makes it seem like africa is synonymous with like nomadic "savage" lifestyles that exist mainly in the western imperial imagination - but its okay because theyre rich now and they continue to use MAGIC spears and MODERN thatched roof huts.

Well, I'm going to avoid calling it 'racist' because I don't really feel comfortable making that judgment, but I do think it's sort of lacking imagination in how to more smoothly modernize African aesthetics. I think the argument here is that looking at modernized African cities today, they still have a western influence, even in somewhere like Ethiopia which was never colonized, but even if that weren't true, that doesn't mean they would have modernized to have thatched roofs - that's like the equivalent of depicting a US with skyscraper log cabins. It does feel a little bit like tribal cosplay more than a fully thought out and realized version of a modern African nation. My problem with it is still more that it's all too cgi and never feels lived in at all.

we are in for a wild year

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Oh wow, did not realize Loki/Ms. Marvel/Hawkeye were all this year. Are those episode counts accurate? I feel like people were saying 6 episodes for Wandavision too, and it turned out to be 9.

Also, that chart leaves off Spider-Man 3 on December 17.

Curious if BW or Shang Chi will get delayed.
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What is Ms. Marvel supposed to be?

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Mac Arrowny posted...

Oh wow, did not realize Loki/Ms. Marvel/Hawkeye were all this year. Are those episode counts accurate?

I feel like they were originally supposed to come out later? I think Disney moved all their digital releases up

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redrocket posted...

What is Ms. Marvel supposed to be?

Kamala Khan series. I think Brie Larson's in it too. Kinda feel like Captain Marvel 2 was originally supposed to come out before it though, so I dunno how they accounted for the change.
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i have a friend who is INSISTENT that wandavision will end with the hex extending all the way to Jersey City and it turning small batches of people into mutants/inhumans, creating Ms. Marvel

i dont think i can completely rule it out but I think that's a lot for one show to do

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Paratroopa1 posted...

Well, I'm going to avoid calling it 'racist' because I don't really feel comfortable making that judgment, but I do think it's sort of lacking imagination in how to more smoothly modernize African aesthetics. I think the argument here is that looking at modernized African cities today, they still have a western influence, even in somewhere like Ethiopia which was never colonized, but even if that weren't true, that doesn't mean they would have modernized to have thatched roofs - that's like the equivalent of depicting a US with skyscraper log cabins. It does feel a little bit like tribal cosplay more than a fully thought out and realized version of a modern African nation. My problem with it is still more that it's all too cgi and never feels lived in at all.

Afrofuturism is a thing, guys.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

Kamala Khan series. I think Brie Larson's in it too. Kinda feel like Captain Marvel 2 was originally supposed to come out before it though, so I dunno how they accounted for the change.

Brie Larson's quest to play White Woman's Burden and uplift women of color everywhere!

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Mac Arrowny posted...

Kamala Khan series. I think Brie Larson's in it too. Kinda feel like Captain Marvel 2 was originally supposed to come out before it though, so I dunno how they accounted for the change.

I think it was always intended this way. they do Kamala origin story plot here, then she gets to tag along for CM2.
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I just bumped this topic but I'm not sure why
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Paratroopa1 posted...

that's like the equivalent of depicting a US with skyscraper log cabins

Not gonna lie, that would be pretty rad, honestly.

(tag)


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8. Captain America: Civil War
Total Score: 297

Mega Mana 1
BetrayedTangy - 2
MetalDK 2
ScepterOfLove - 2
Corrik7 3
CoolCly - 4
GavsEvans123 4
Lopen - 4
XIII Rocks 4
Cybat - 5
StifledSilence - 5
Whiskey Nick 5
NBIceman 6
VengefulKaelee - 6
Anagram - 7
ZenOfThunder 7
MetalmindStats 8
Illuminatusbubu - 9
Sheep007 9
HanOfTheNekos - 10
Snake5555555555 - 10
Jesse Custer 14
Johnbobb 14
Paratroopa1 - 14
TomNook 14
Mr Crispy 15
Red13n - 16
Raka Putra - 17
Maniac64 18
Inviso 20
Eddv - 21
PrinceKaro - 21

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Mega Mana
First Moment That Comes to Mind: Cap reading the accords with Falcon and War Machine conversing behind him

Civil War may be my favorite MCU movie and one of my favorite films ever (Infinity War and Winter Soldier all jockey for first place, really). It's a movie dealing with consequences. Is it an Avengers movie? No. The Avengers are in Captain America's life and they are brilliant supporting characters in his story, getting their own side stories advanced forward (particularly Wanda & Vision), and we get two amazing introductions for Spider-Man and Black Panther, but first and foremost this is about Captain America. The First Avenger was about what makes Captain America a great hero and establishes his moral fortitude and duty to protecting and saving others. The Winter Soldier was putting his integrity to the test against country and power if the corruption is pervasive. Civil War... is the first big test of grey. There is no black or white answer here. This isn't HYDRA. This is about beliefs, trust, friendship, moral quandaries, choosing between two difficult choices, and standing up for what you believe in.

There are a lot, A LOT, of rambling paragraphs that get muddled coming out of my head that I'll forego expanding upon here, e.g. the role of how guilt affects decision-making (Cap, Tony, Panther, Spider-Man, Zemo, Vision, Bucky), the toxicity of vengeance, accountability of actions, fatherhood and male role models, easy vs. difficult decisions and slippery slopes, etc. My brain sees so much minute wonderful detailing in this superhero movie that I wish I had more collegiate and dexterous ability to focus and express. I love thinking about this movie.

Like, I sometimes forget there's the big superhero battle in the middle, but also... Spider-Man has an incredible debut as both Peter and as the Brooklyn-based webslinger; Black Panther is absolutely key in the themes of this movie and his scene at the end with Zemo is such a perfect contrast to Tony vs. Cap; Ant-Man, Hawkeye, Falcon, Winter Soldier, Spidey, and Black Widow bring out some full belly laughs; the non-twist of more Winter Soldiers to fight is wonderful; Iron Man vs. Captain America and the Winter Soldier is beautifully choreographed; the running in the tunnel soooo good; ahhhh.... I love so much of this movie.

I think Winter Soldier is a better crafted film. I think Infinity War tugs my heartstrings so much more. But Civil War just has all the action, heart, comedy, drama, characters, theme, pathos, and juggled storylines wrapped together in a big present that works on so many levels for me. That's why it's my #1. I cannot gush enough about Civil War.

BetrayedTangy
Theres a reason people call this movie Avengers 2.5. We get a ton of characters, the fight scenes are epic and it sets up a lot of the universe going forward. The only thing keeping it below my number 1 is that its still technically a Cap movie and his character is definitely given the higher priority. Its really a shame too, because RDJ does a great job of showing how much this situation pains his character. Also one of my favorite details from this scene is when Clint introduces himself to TChalla to which he replies I dont care. Then later in Endgame he actually refers to him as Clint. Such a nice detail that says a lot about TChalla as a character.

MetalDK
Black Panther was more intriguing in this than his own movie

ScepterOfLove
(No write-up.)

Corrik7
Getting to see the avengers against one another was great to see on film. It was also good to see Spider-Man finally get involved with the other characters too. The Stark / Captain / Winter Soldier angle was good and intense.

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CoolCly
This is basically Avengers: Civil War, and thats perfectly fine with me!
This movie is just such a highlight of how great the MCU is at bringing all these characters together and allowing them to mesh and clash, and keep them all acting perfectly in character with how theyve been developed in prior movies. It never feels like anybody is at odds with how theyve been portrayed before, which is what we would see by lesser writers and directors.
One thing I *love* is when people say this movie sucks because Iron Man is obviously right.. and then other people say this movie sucks because Captain America is obviously right. Its a pretty braindead take either way. If you come to that conclusion, then you didnt think about it for more than 10 seconds. You just thought about until you came up with *your* conclusion and decided thats the right one.
Of course, thats what makes the conflict about the accords actually good. Both Iron Man and Cap have compelling reasons why they are taking the side they are here.
The result of the movie is that the accords are dumb because its technically a Captain America movie, and these dumb accords just get in our super heroes way anyways, but its still a great question and good way to split the heroes into teams and fight eachother. And the fights are awesome.
I love Zemo. He doesnt really care about the accords or the heroes or anything. Hes devastated that he lost his family, and he blames the heroes. Therefore, hes going to enact a plan and destroy him. Theres really nothing special about him individually that makes him a supervillain, hes just very good at finding information and using his spycraft to use it. He makes the Avengers and the government dance to his tune, and I love the whole ride he takes us on.
TChalla is introduced spectacularly here. Hes entirely driven by revenge of what happens to his dad, but his arc is wrapped up pretty satisfyingly, which is good considering he strangely didnt get a lot of focus in his own movie.
Ive seen a lot of criticism that this movie is completely lacking in memorable locations. Its a movie of stairwells and meeting rooms. And its true. But. Thats not really a problem. Fantastic landscapes and memorable locations are a boon to any movie but that doesnt mean every movie needs to have them. This movie has compelling character interactions and top tier action. It keeps everything consistent and continues to up the stakes throughout the movie. When our heroes are finally on the same page. Zemo shows Tony a movie, and things get dialed up to 11
This is a GREAT movie and I love it.

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GavsEvans123
The film takes its time establishing why the characters feel the way they do about the situation, and their experiences in previous films also helps add to this. For example, Caps dismantling of SHIELD after HYDRA had infiltrated it means its perfectly sensible for him to distrust some sort of overview system, in case something similar happens again. Likewise, Tony Stark would want control to keep him in check because the last time he performed scientific experiments unsupervised, he created Ultron, and even before then he used to be a weapons manufacturer. Its made clear that them fighting each other is the last resort, done only when all other options have fallen through. I also appreciate that the film has the guts to take its central concept to its logical conclusion, and avoid having the two sides reconcile while decking some CGI monsters face in, as it means the central conflict is relevant throughout, and not just an excuse to have Captain America and Iron Man fight each other. The Marvel films have been around long enough by now that they can start to tell stories such as this one that rely on the shared history of the characters, with the assumption that audiences will have seen most or all of the previous films.

You may think that with such a large cast list, the film would struggle to balance everyone without having someone overshadow everyone else or be shafted. In a pleasant surprise, this is not the case. Everyone gets a bit of focus and a reason to be involved, with nobody appearing for the sake of it. Some characters offer different aspects of the Sokovia Accords and how theyll be affected by them. Others, most notably Spider-Man and Ant Man, serve as comic relief, but are capable of being serious when necessary. Even more impressively, Cap isnt pushed out of his own film by having to share it with the rest of the Avengers, always remembering that its his name thats in the title. There are two plots running alongside each other, the Winter Soldier plot that follows on from The Winter Soldier, and the Accords plot that happens as a response to the events of Age of Ultron. Unlike many of these kinds of films, the two plots here complement each other well and blend into each other, thus avoiding a stop-start feel whenever the plot focus switches, and keeping a smooth pace throughout.

The new characters are particularly worthy of praise. Everything we need to know about Spider-Mans personality is established in only two scenes via the medium of Show Dont Tell, and without any expository dialogue or yet another retelling of his origin story, a blessed relief as Spider-Mans origin story is common knowledge, behind only Batman and Superman.

Chadwick Boseman as Black Panther is excellent, his character established in a comparable way to Spider-Man, but with a more prominent role. In his very cool-looking costume, he proves to be more than a match, carrying himself with dignity and grace, but also fury tempered with skill. Like Spider-Man, Black Panthers character develops naturally in the film, without it needing to pause to introduce him. Also worth noting is the enigmatic villain Zemo, played by Daniel Bruhl. He may just be an ordinary man without any superpowers, but hes one of the Avengers most dangerous foes yet despite this, posing a challenge of a different sort. Hes also capable of subverting clichs and offer some new twists, with one particularly cruel one near the end Mission Report, December 16, 1991. Best of all, he doesnt die at the end!

The kiss between Cap and Sharon Carter was a bit weird, since we dont see them together all that much. I can buy it happening, but not quite yet. It feels a little like something Disney mandated to stop the shippers from saying Cap is gay for Bucky (It doesnt stop me from saying Cap is bi for Bucky though. Big brain right there, galaxy brain! I feel like that big-brain Mickey Mouse picture.) Also, since Caps faction opposes government oversight and accountability, even if collateral damage results from their actions, can we call them Team America?

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Lopen
Who is right, Cap or Tony? This is, to the extent they can be, a "thinky" Marvel movie, and I probably appreciate it more than I should just because of that, having discussions online about it.

Black Panther is fantastic in this movie-- this movie makes me more interested in him than his own. Watching the avengers fight amongst themselves is satisfying and given just enough justification to work, but the movie is really good at knowing when it's time to be serious too-- the stuff at the end with Iron Man and Cap/Bucky is heavy.

That being said it's a tad bloated in terms of involved characters while at the same time making the MCU feel small (this is a thing that affects all superheroes so having more pop in for cameos would help it feel bigger-- in the comics this involved like 10x the characters) so I have some nitpicks. The small scale is also part of why the conflict feels a little shoehorned.

Oh and it's Tony by the way.

XIII Rocks
I went back and forth on having this up at #4, because it has two obvious flaws, way more obvious than anything else this high. But the rest of the movie is so good that I had to.

Let me get the flaws out of the way first: Spider-Man and Ant Man are both really great in this movie, but I think the movie suffers because their inclusion, particularly Spider-Man's, is incredibly contrived. Tony Stark uses 24 of his 72 hours to go back to Queens and recruit a child he's never even spoken to before? It's really dumb. You could say it's worth it to get Spider-Man into the movie, and I can get on board with that. But still. Black Panther's debut in this movie, on the other hand, was really well-done and smoothly integrated with the plot. No complaints there. The other flaw: Zemo's plan. I'm really not sure what his plan actually was, and if what happened was his endgame. I'm really not sure how he could ever ensure that would actually happen.

Onto the positives, though. This movie has prooobably the two best fight sequences in the MCU and its best individual dialogue scene. I adore the airport battle - it is the MCU's crowning glory and its best battle sequence. Great use of character, funny, non-stop action...it's a total triumph. And then there's the Iron Man vs. Cap/Bucky fight, which is as thrilling as it is tragic and well-choreographed, and the use of Iron Man's analytics to beat Cap hand-to-hand. It did do a pro-wrestling kind of thing where both guys were "protected", though - Iron Man definitively loses, but he loses because it's a 2-on-1, so doubt is created. I'm not sure how much I like that, but I'm biased and wanted Iron Man to win.

That said - in Jurassic Park, I honestly find the conversations in the opening acts to be the most compelling part of the movie (such as the "could/should" lunch scene). And to me the lingering memory in Civil War isn't just the airport battle, or the underrated and outstanding Bucky/Cap/Panther chase. It's two specific scenes. First, the initial argument over the accords featuring almost all the active Avengers. The debate makes the occasional strange point but it mostly does a great job of demonstrating the pros and cons. Vision's monologue in particular is interesting and even more true than he thinks - the rise of Hulk caused Abomination, the rise of Iron Man caused all three of his villains and both Spider-Man villains, Thor's arrogance helped create Loki, etc. Then there's the scene I think is the MCU's best "talking" scene; the Stark/Rogers scene with the pen. The way it delves into the motivations of both characters and lays their ideological differences - the differences that define almost the entire infinity saga - makes it essential. I've rewatched it a dozen times, and certainly more than the airport battle or any other "talking" scene in the other movies.

Finally: there are legitimate arguments here for both sides. I know people disagree, but Stark and Romanoff to me were spot on. You take the pragmatic approach, sign the accords and then work to make them looser and looser. I'm glad that Cap's blind virtue wasn't presented here as absolutely correct. Oh, and I really like the ending to this, even if it does dilute the tension of the climax a little bit.

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Cybat
With how much this movie does well, it is a little unfortunate that the actual central conflict of the movie is kind of a mess. Most of Team Tony doesnt even really have that strong of an opinion about the Accords, including Tony himself, who flat-out ignores them when traveling to Siberia with Steve and Bucky. And of course they are never mentioned again after this movie, except when Ross vaguely threatens Steve in Infinity War. It maybe would have been better for them to wait until after they introduce like a million more heroes in the various Disney+ shows before trying a storyline like this.
But, if you can suspend disbelief a little bit more than usual, this movie is ridiculously fun. The introductions of Black Panther and, finally, Spider-Man, are outstanding (if spoiled a bit by the trailers), and hey Ant Man is here too! The conflict being based around Bucky makes perfect sense, and the reveal tying him in to Tonys backstory was handled with an unusual amount of seriousness for the MCU. Zemos plan was pretty convoluted but the general idea of it is great and pretty unique among comic book movies. And, man, that airport fight.

StifledSilence
I dunno if icky is the right word, but watching Cap and Tony fight makes me feel icky every time. Its so uncomfortable and jarring to watch them beat the shit out of each other, especially when both have valid points in this argument. Its hard to pick a side. One thing is for sure, however. I dare you to not feel for Iron Man when he discovers the fate of his parents. RDJs acting is superb and completely believable to the point he makes it feel real. That aside, Civil War flies by at a ridiculous pace, filled with multiple story threads that require the appropriate amount of ass kicking to settle. Icky feelings or not, this is easily one of the best MCU movies.

Whiskey_Nick
(No write-up.)

NBIceman
I like the Civil War comics event a little more than the average, and I believe thats true of my opinion of the movie that shares its name as well. From what Ive seen, people that dont really care for it seem to be of the opinion, broadly speaking, that the conflict which incites the titular battle doesnt feel big or grand enough, which gives the overall atmosphere a very low-stakes feeling. And Im not even saying thats entirely unfair, because the word War seems to promise something other than what we got. But if I strip away the title of the film and the implications behind it and just watch it for what it is, I think it accomplishes its purpose perfectly. The Sokovia Accords make very little sense in-universe, and Vision seems to be the only character supporting them simply because of its actual ideas. Tony does it out of guilt thats at least somewhat misplaced, Natasha approaches it from a political and PR standpoint, and so on. But the dividing line is drawn nonetheless, and the resulting standoff spirals out of control pretty much only because of the behind-the-scenes machinations of Zemo, who emerges as one of the best MCU villains because of it. Again, I understand the disappointment from people who wanted a larger scale clash, and hell, I wouldnt even have minded that myself. But Civil War decided to be something else, and that something else still has a lot going for it. Its got a good script, great action, and some fantastic character work, particularly on the part of Steve Rogers, who continues to demonstrate why hes the most compelling individual in the franchise. And hey, if youre really desperate for those lasting consequences, the Russos have stated that without the Avengers fracturing in this movie, Thanos loses in Infinity War. So, theres that.

VengefulKaelee
Not as good of an MCU event movie as Winter Soldier, but I'd argue it juggles all the different storylines it draws from better than the bigger, flashier Avengers entries that followed it. This really does honestly feel like a full-on Avengers movie; it's better than most of them and presents some pretty convincingly high stakes involving a lot of different characters. I can't say I absolutely love it, as some things about it are pretty forgettable, but this is one where the big showdown actually isn't a letdown thank to some shrewd writing adding emotional stakes to the proceedings.

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Anagram
Bucky, I know you were mind-controlled by Nazis, so youre not really responsible for my parents deaths. Im still upset, though, so I need to go cool off outside. Can you and Steve handle Zemo without me?

ZenOfThunder
Spider-Man is in this. It is basically someone taking their favorite action figures and slapping them against each other for 2.5 hours.

MetalmindStats
Zemo is admittedly a bit of a weak villain with questionable motivations, something which isnt particularly new for the MCU but matters much more than usual given Civil Wars plot. Still, I found the whole Sokovia Accords scenario plausible enough to buy it dividing the bulk of the Avengers and putting them under fire. That leaves a crisis unparalleled in the MCU at fleshing out and showcasing its characters as humans and as superheroes alike.

Illuminatusbubu
I think Captain America is very annoying goody two-shoes character. Luckily, this movie is not all about the Captain but more like a mini Avengers movie. The Conflict between the Avengers are believable and intriguing. Really change the tone from a childish superhero vibe to a more mature thought-provoking storytelling.

Sheep007
I dont think this is an amazing movie, especially compared to those above this, which are all damn good in their niche or genre. However, I think this was the Avengers movie where it all really clicked for me (and it is an Avengers movie, even if the focus is on Steve). By this stage all of the characters are likeable or interesting (and no Thor! You cant imagine how relieved I was by that), and I enjoy any story involving heroes fighting each other. Bucky is a great villain in the first half, TChalla is a great new character who manages to get a solid arc even with as little screen time as he has, and Peter is just a joy in every scene; I would watch an entire movie of Civil War Peter mouthing off in cheesy fight sequences. The airport fight, while perhaps a bit too busy, is good and has quite a few interesting set-pieces. It doesnt feel like serious combat, but I think thats kinda the intention given they mostly dont want to hurt each other. Except for Don Cheadle. Poor Don Cheadle. I dont think the humour is quite as good there like it is in some of the other movies, but this is meant to be a bit more serious so thats fair enough (although the scene where Bucky and Sam are in the car watching Steve get off with his exs far younger relative makes me smile every time). The villain is fine, but the main conflict is between heroes so thats not a big issue, and I think that central conflict is fairly strong. Overall, it does what it wanted to do pretty well.

HanOfTheNekos
Another film that fell a lot on rewatch. When I first watched this movie, I thought it was incredibly engaging. Thats points above all else. Spideys introduction was good, but Tchallas introduction was phenomenal. I thought the actual conflict between Cap and Tony made sense. And I like that Tonys side WAS important but in the end, he got left with nothing. Mostly betrayed, or with people he couldnt depend upon.

There were many cute interactions. Crossbones felt kind of wasted. Sharon Carters use was okay, but not the romance subplot Id have wanted for Cap. Peggy was the best, but he had good chemistry with Natalie Rushmore.

I also liked Zemo! He was uninvolved, but effective.

It was kind of stupid that most of the film was just a fight at an airport, but theres good character interaction there. Kind of stupid how it all falls apart because Rhodey got injured.

Overall, best moment of the film was the final fight between Tony and Cap/Bucky.

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Snake5555555555
Despite its title, this is definitely an Avengers movie in disguise. I think you can make Age of Ultron about Iron Man instead and have a better movie for yourself there, while just calling CW by what it really is. Still, thats just a title. The film is great regardless! It was a nice parralel to the Avengers: instead of coming together, theyre torn apart and were shown a different perspective on their characters and dynamics that feels like a nice soft reset for upcoming stories. Though, Ive always agreed with what Scarlet has said about this film, like its a family dinner gathering or something along those lines, whereas comics Civil War was a grand epic that may not have always worked but touched on practically every corner of Marvel from the A-Listers like Spider-Man to Z-Listers like NFL Superpro. CW shouldve definitely been down the line a little bit longer and 100% shouldve had the Netflix heroes but I digress; its still a satisfying film that especially magnifies CA & IMs personalities and brings the former up a lot in terms of character development. I love the beginning with Crossbones (RIP), I love everything about Black Panther in this movie, the use of Spider-Man is some Grade-A certified unmatched fan-service, the portrayal of Zemo is spectacular, its an absolutely thrilling film with just a slightly unfortunate title.

Jesse Custer
This Avengers movie masquerading as a Captain America movie was mostly pretty good, with well choreographed fight scenes, solid introductions to the MCU for Black Panther and Spider-Man, and a conflict between Cap and Iron Man that felt like it actually mattered (in contrast to what Batman v Superman tried to achieve). But Civil War had its problems too. The main villain was forgettable, while the far more interesting minor villain, Crossbones, was wasted all too quickly. And the culmination of the villains plans to break up The Avengers felt kind of contrived. Still Civil War is a movie worth watching for reasons other than simply following the overall story of the MCU.

Johnbobb
Even as I write this I think I might have put this too high. I definitely have some issues with its base qualities. Captain America is and always has been the villain of Civil War in both the comics and the movie, regardless of what they both want you to think. Zemo is a boring and forgettable villain. The whole premise just felt a little goofy. That being said, it's definitely one of the better of the "turn your brain off and just enjoy it for what it is" movies in the MCU.

Paratroopa1
I don't find the political intrigue involving the Accords as interesting as most people seem to - there's a whole lot of "who's right, Captain America or Iron Man?" and I kind of just don't give a shit? The whole movie is really sort of a bummer. I really don't like the idea of actually ruminating on the collateral damage that the heroes are causing and the idea that innocent people are getting killed in it - it makes big action scenes that take place in crowded areas really distracting. In movies like this I've always been kind of anxious about all the property damage that happens - someone has to clean that stuff up! - but to make me think, every time Hulk slams into the side of a building he's probably killing or seriously injuring ten people, it just sort of takes you out of the whole idea of it being fun, so I sort of hate that Civil War introduces this concept to us. Plus, people get kind of obnoxiously hardass on the Avengers - like, they get criticized for the events of Avengers 1! That incident wasn't their fault and their actions created a completely absurd best case scenario when the entire city would have otherwise been nuked! So the premise of the whole plot just kind of annoys the hell out of me, and the first hour of the movie feels like mostly an excuse to try to get two factions of heroes to face off each other. Which is fine, because once they do, it's a hell of a lot of fun, and the final action scene between Iron Man and Cap is pretty great too. So, alright, it's worth it in the end, but I can't help but find the premise of the whole movie frustrating.

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TomNook
The 3rd Avengers movie, though called Captain America for some reason. This one is a lot of fun. There isn't much to say, but I do have to laugh at things like the airport fight, where they give characters who are clearly too powerful for the MAIN characters, nothing to do. Scarlet Witch and Vision could dominate every single person.

Mr Crispy
Heroes fighting each other is probably a more compelling concept than fighting some of the villains, since they have more history together and the audience is more familiar with them. But it's pretty forced here. I don't care for the plot with Bucky or the airport fight much. I liked the last fight in the bunker better, although I think the movie as a whole would have been better if it spent more time shoring up some of the shaky spots leading up to it or if the movie didn't force the 'civil war' concept so much so it would have been a more legitimate twist. Spiderman and Black Panther had decent enough introductions. Crossbones/Zemo being under utilized didn't bother me but I could understand being upset about. Why bring back Ross, but not connect him to the plot of trying to find the super soldier serum when that was his goal in the Incredible Hulk?

Red13n
This is...kind of a Captain America movie? Lets be honest, this is just an Avengers title with a loose plot around Bucky that most of the time takes a back seat. There is a decent argument to be made that this is more of an Iron Man movie than a Cap movie. Cap spends the movie rigid to his dumb belief he should answer to no one, while Tony actually wrestles with what he must do in a world that is mostly their creation. But the worst part of this movie is that we're forced to have a lot of characters pretty blatantly fall outside their own character for the sake of a big team battle on a hangar where inevitably no one will win. We're introduced to a few new heroes, there are some fun action sequences, but it just doesn't feel like a natural "civil war" so to speak. There's also a villain somewhere in there we are supposed to care about. No cares were had.

Raka Putra
It feels weird that this is a Captain America movie instead of an Avengers movie. Anyway, I was really excited for this movie back then, but unfortunately the 'civil war' angle was gone in the blink of an eye and we only got one ensemble fight out of it. Anyway, I like its concept more than the execution. It ended up a bit forgettable.

Maniac64
I don't get the love for this movie. Yeah the airport fight was cool but this movie just left me wanting. I felt like the plot was not strong enough to cause the division we saw, and the Winter Soldier/Iron Man stuff just didn't land for me. Yeah the three man fight was super well done but it didn't feel like it should have happened.

Inviso
Im not even entirely sure why this is a Captain America movie, given that its about fifty-fifty split between the feelings of Captain America and Iron Man. Its tough to rank this one, because its REALLY cool to see some of the action set pieces in this movie. After all, this is an opportunity to see the Avengers fighting each other without any sort of mind control to hamper their powers. The airport fight is a GREAT scene and gives the opportunity to see a bunch of characterization and witty dialogue (from Ant Man, Spider-Man, Iron Man, and even Falcon/Bucky). But the plot is just not great. Dont get me wrong, I appreciate the commitment to the franchises internal timeline, but it just feels like a weird choice to create the civil war conflict in the way its created. The opening scene isnt necessary given the utter destruction of Sokovia providing enough of a catalyst for the Sokovia Accords. And if Im being honest? Captain America feels ONE HUNDRED percent in the wrong and his entire motivations seem to be putting his friend ahead of the rest of the world. Sure, hes rightbut he could easily have been wrong. Oh, and the introduction of Spider-Man AND Black Panther (and bringing Ant Man into the core group) feels like a weird choice and detracts from the focus of the movie. So ultimately, the action is top notch, and some of the twists are good (and hell, I appreciate the villains motivations), but its trying to do too much rather than do just a little REALLY well.

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Eddv
Melodramatic shit. The story it is "adapting" had a ton of problems but at least it was interesting. This was not.

PrinceKaro
So a part of a building is destroyed when our heroes are fighting a supervillain and suddenly everyone is like oh the humanity the avengers are out of control. Hey, remember that time they wrecked New York City fighting Loki? Or when they blew up a whole country fighting Ultron? But oh no NOW a line has been crossed, for fucks sake.
Anyway, Tony has an impromptu moral crisis and decides that the avengers should be the bitch of the UN and a lot of people don't like that and so everyone starts kicking each others asses. Hooray.
The comic arc that shares its name (and not much else) with the movie, had like, some serious shit go down to cause the world to turn against its costumed defenders. Here, it's just manufactured conflict with no teeth or repercussions other than palette swap iron man breaking his legs, but does anyone really give a shit about him?
This brings us to the villain, a forgettable dude who lost his loved ones in the fighting in Jakoffvia and now he's back for revenge. This Baron Xenu is portrayed as a super puppetmaster who manipulates the avengers into destroying themselves, but he doesn't really do anything other than frame Bucky which is not really rocket science. Also, this supposedly genius mastermind just leaves the dead body of a doctor he impersonated lying around in a bathtub in this hotel room registered to his real name (this is actually why he loses).
All of the fighting is actually caused by the earth's mightiest heroes behaving like small children who are ready to beat the shit out of each other at the slightest disagreement,
The question I keep asking myself while watching this movie is 'why?'
Why did we chop T'Challa's origin story out of his own movie and fuse it onto this one?
Why do we have Spider-Man just randomly show up with zero explanation other than 'I know this guy'?
Why is Ant-Man even involved here? He has no stake whatsoever in this fight because he is not an avenger and doesnt follow laws anyway.
Why do we need to indulge in this masturbatory fanservice for people who just want to see Marvel's heroes pummel each other?
Why did I waste two hours of my life watching this glorified advertisement for upcoming marvel movies?
Just....just.. why.

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OUTLIERS:

Eddv - 118
PrinceKaro - 98
Johnbobb - 85
BetrayedTangy - 78
Jesse Custer - 73
TomNook - 70
VengefulKaelee - 69
Paratroopa1 - 66
Inviso - 63
Lopen - 63
Mr Crispy - 63
ScepterOfLove - 61
Raka Putra - 58
Snake5555555555 - 57
GavsEvans123 - 56
StifledSilence - 55
Maniac64 - 53
MetalmindStats - 53
Corrik7 - 51
HanOfTheNekos - 51
Illuminatusbubu - 51
XIII Rocks - 50
Anagram - 46
Whiskey Nick - 46
Mega Mana - 45
Cybat - 44
Red13n - 43
NBIceman - 42
MetalDK - 39
CoolCly - 38
Sheep007 - 33
ZenOfThunder 22

That one really started to separate people. Sure, Zen and Eddvs maintain their positions, but the tight race for second at the bottom has shifted to give Sheep a sizable advantage, given how few films remain. Meanwhile, Karo opens up a HUGE gap over Johnbobb.

Spoiler for Number 7: Features Black Widow.

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Inviso posted...

Scarlet Witch and Vision could dominate every single person.

I feel like I mentioned that in one of my write-ups but I don't remember which one. Either way, it constantly bothers me throughout the MCU. They could easily dominate everybody but just never get the chance too, and it kinda calls it out in Infinity War with the "Why was she in the tower?" line the moment Scarlet Witch enters the battlefield. Also Thor and Hulk are conveniently gone because, again, there's a MASSIVE power differential between the upper tier and low-mid tier Avengers that they never really figure out how to handle.

yet another reason WandaVision is the best thing the MCU has done hands down.

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Inviso posted...

Spoiler for Number 7: Features Black Widow.

we're just never dropping GotG2 huh

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Damn you Karo let me open up a bigger lead

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I've been waiting to say this since Age of Ultron dropped, so here goes.

Hulk is my dead last ranking because it's literally the most boring film in the franchise. There's no wit and no charm. But then films 22-20 (Age of Ultron, Captain Marvel, Civil War) all feel soulless in that they come across less as Marvel movies, and more as filler stories, necessary to set up later events. Unlike every other origin movie, Captain Marvel feels so shoddily-written that it exists SOLELY to explain why Captain Marvel is so awesome and saves the day a couple times during Endgame. Civil War feels slapped together specifically to explain why the terrestrial Avengers would be split up come Infinity War (plus, it introduces Black Panther AND Spider-Man AND explains Ant-Man's house arrest). And Age of Ultron is the worst of the three because it feels like it exists SOLELY to set in motion the events of Civil War, which makes it filler twice removed. Hulk is bad, but those three are just disappointments for just how unnecessary they are (without quality writing to back them up.)

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alright im changing course. i'm bullish on gotg2 now

gotg2 #1

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Ok, Avengers 1 dropping next.

Johnbobb posted...

Also Thor and Hulk are conveniently gone because, again, there's a MASSIVE power differential between the upper tier and low-mid tier Avengers that they never really figure out how to handle.

While this is true, I think it's easy enough to think that with Thor, they just don't fight at all. Thor is an alien with Godlike powers, and if Tony and Cap started to fight about things, you bet your ass Thor is smacking them both around and forcing them to talk it out.

Hulk I think is team Tony and then team Tony wins, but Thor just prevents all the conflict by reminding them that "hey there's this guy named Thanos and Infinity Stones and stop being assholes" more than he's just tough.

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Civil War too low. Sounds like Avengers 1 is coming up.

Congratulations to GotG2, Board 8's favourite MCU movie and possibly film of all time.

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Yeah Thor would be the ultimate mediator because he's not really thinking of things in basic terms such as EARTH. He absolutely needs to be gone. And I will say I don't mind him being gone, either. To me that isn't even part of what felt forced in the plot

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Going to guess Endgame is out next.

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I would assume Avengers 2012 next but Endgame wouldn't make my jaw hit the floor.

I'm very, very tempted to go on a Team Cap vs Team Tony rant considering that the writeups lead me to believe I'm in the minority as far as my opinions there, but I don't want to bog down this ranking with that sort of thing.

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Inviso posted...

Anagram
Bucky, I know you were mind-controlled by Nazis, so youre not really responsible for my parents deaths. Im still upset, though, so I need to go cool off outside. Can you and Steve handle Zemo without me?

This argument is as horseshit now as it was when the movie came out btw
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Also Widow is in Thor Ragnarok via video so I'm gonna say it's that
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I'm actually gonna go out on a limb and guess Infinity War.

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Really, a lot of the problems stem back to wasting the Civil War plotline on this movie.

Look at the MCU timeline. In terms of heroes, here's who we have on-deck, going into Civil War:

Iron-Man
The Incredible Hulk (off-planet after AoU)
War Machine
Black Widow
Thor (off-planet after AoU)
Captain America
Hawkeye
Falcon
Winter Soldier
Guardians of the Galaxy (off-planet)
Wanda Maximoff
Vision
Ant-Man

War Machine is a background character to Iron Man. Likewise, Falcon is a background character to Captain America. Hawkeye has always been a background character among the more prominent heroes. Wanda and Vision were introduced as part of an already-bloated Age of Ultron, which didn't allow for them to get much characterization. Ant-Man has no real connection to the Avengers prior to this movie (aside from fighting Falcon in one scene of Ant-Man).

Essentially, you're calling your movie "Civil War", and the only relevant characters involved in the titular Civil War are Iron Man, Captain America, Black Widow (who could be considered on the same level as Hawkeye, but she's a bit more prominent), and Bucky himself. There's such a limited pool to draw from that they had to introduce Black Panther (his involvement being the result of the film's inciting incident...which was completely unnecessary given that the events of AoU MORE than justify the Sokovian Accords...you know...what with the name and all) and Spider-Man (who literally comes out of NOWHERE and the movie doesn't even bother to tie into the plot in any meaningful way).

So, you have a limited pool of heroes to actually fight in your "Civil War", weakening one of the biggest reasons for pitching such a plotline (the airport scene is the ONE standout moment of the film, but can you imagine if you had that scene on the scale of Endgame's final battle, with massive armies of heroes?) Surely, the plot itself is interesting, right? Not so much. Tony feels guilty about his involvement in a lot of problems and worries that regulation is needed. Steve wants unfettered freedom. And ultimately, the war doesn't even come down to that, but rather fighting over whether Bucky is a murderer or not. It's really, really dumb, and it's a complete waste of the concept of having two groups of superheroes ideologically opposed to one another to the point of war.

You could easily have had the Bucky story from Civil War, where Cap believes in his friend, and he goes rogue (recruiting some lesser heroes to his cause, like Wanda, Falcon, Widow) to justify the division among the team when Cap's rebellion is labeled an enemy group. You still have that division for Infinity War, but you haven't burned the Civil War concept on something so minor and pointless. It'd be a perfect Phase 5 Avengers film, when the roster is more fleshed out and everything.

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Anyway, I do not buy the notion that Civil Wad is cold or cynical one bit. What actually stood out to me is how much it avoids just bring a cynical cash grab where heroes punch each other and upcoming films are advertised (whereas say Age of Ultron would fall into this), because the whole thing is grounded in the feelings of the characters and the emotional consequences of their actions up to this point. It is very concerned with who the heroes are as people. Like in Age of Ultron, the smashy crashy superhero action largely left me cold, but thats also not why most people come to these movies, and this film seemed to understand that while Age of Ultron didnt. Its also why its better than The Winter Soldier, because The Winter Soldier is magnificent for most of its runtime then remembers that it needs to have a huge action climax where a thing falls over a city, while Civil War keeps its climax about the characters and the conflicts between them.

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When they announced Civil War, I remember thinking it was too early, there aren't enough heroes and they are blowing the plotline too soon

But they used it at the *perfect* time for a bunch of reasons

1) There turned out to be a ton of heroes to use, more would have just been gratuitous, and people already make the (imo simplified and unfounded) take that this movie is just about taking your heroes and smashing them against eachother like action figures. The focus the main heroes got and the spotlights the minor heroes got were all good.

2) it *was* a good idea to create conflict and break them apart going into Infinity War. People say this movie was *just* to accomplish that, but I don't agree. It *also* accomplished that, and it benefits both movies

3) If they had waited longer for more heroes, we would start *losing* heroes from earlier in the MCU as characters die and as actors move on. Imagine trying to do this after Endgame. It would be a drastically different movie...

Overall, I should have had more faith in the MCU. They nailed it. Praise be to Feige.

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Ultimately, number 3 is the big reason I see, Cly. Chris Evans and Robert Downey Jr.'s contracts probably meant they'd be signing off after the two Avengers movies, so Civil War (the last of the Captain America trilogy since Marvel burned all three Iron Man movies in their first seven films) was the last chance to really use them for a "brother versus brother" type storyline. I just wish they could have come up with a better justification, because the plot feels flimsy and makes it come across as just "we wanted to have the good guys fight one another somehow."

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3. Captain America: Civil War
4. Spider-Man: Homecoming
5. Black Panther
6.
7. Spider-Man: Far From Home
8.
9. Doctor Strange
10. Captain Marvel
11.
12.
13. Ant-Man And The Wasp
14.
15. Ant-Man
16. Avengers: Age of Ultron
17. Captain America: The First Avenger
18. Thor
19. Iron Man
20. Thor: The Dark World
21. Iron Man 2
22. Iron Man 3
23. The Incredible Hulk

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People now thinking GotG2 wins even though there's clearly a group of people who don't have it high lol

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XIII_rocks posted...

This argument is as horseshit now as it was when the movie came out btw

I'm just joshing, I know that Tony Stark is an emotional guy who doesn't think things through.

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