Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 364: Absolute Proof (Citation Needed)

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Man, what the fuck is this bullshit. I'm black, I've got black family, and you know what actually made me feel the most powerless? When I learned a cop in the city I live in walked into a man's home and shot him dead for no reason. And you want to act like radical rhetoric and action is really a sign of weakness? Just shut up man.

I'll say it again: ACAB is not a slogan for you if you can't understand this. It's not for the politicians. But if you'd rather use your time and energy talking down to people instead of focusing on the common ground you are actively choosing to side with the police when you could be doing anything else productive.

People can walk into someone's house and shoot someone at any time. How does that make you feel?

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NFUN posted...

@UshiromiyaEva Just try to remember that "effect" is a noun, and "affect" is a verb (there's an exception, but it doesn't come up often). Maybe a mnemonic like "affect is action" could help

https://xkcd.com/326/

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Corrik7 posted...

People can walk into someone's house and shoot someone at any time. How does that make you feel?

oh damn he sure got u there

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SovietOmega posted...

https://xkcd.com/326/

that is the aforementioned exception yes
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

oh damn he sure got u there

Got 'em.

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My take is that ACAB isn't a great slogan but it doesn't really matter much in the end. 95% of the people that were going to oppose it would have opposed it regardless of branding.

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Corrik7 posted...

People can walk into someone's house and shoot someone at any time. How does that make you feel?

Well this post makes me feel like you're a moron but I knew that already

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we're posting in the form of MLK for this topic my friend

I would like to honestly say to you that the white backlash is merely a new name for an old phenomenon. Its not something that just came into being because shouts of black power or because Negros engaged in riots in Watts, for instance. The fact is that the state of California voted a fair housing bill out of existence before anybody shouted black power or before anybody rioted in Watts. It may well be that shouts of black power and riots in Watts and the Harlems and the other areas are the consequences of the white backlash, rather than the cause of them.

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Inviso posted...

If you support a policy that has minority support in the overall population, then inspiring apathy among your detractors is a far more effective strategy than trying to convert them to your cause. It's the reason the GOP is still a relevant political party, since all they need to do is make Democrats feel like everything is hopeless and nothing will ever change, and their reduce voters turnout and win elections.

To piggyback off the MLK because Inviso even specifically mentioned gay marriage losing in California despite Obama.

What inspires hopelessness isnt an inscrutable or unchanging opponent in the right wingers who dont just disagree but actively want the opposite.

What inspires hopelessness is the people going well, Im ON YOUR SIDE, but the way you do it scares those other people [who would never join you anyway], so Im actively against you on this.

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What inspires hopelessness in me is people on the left constantly blaming the "establishment" and the "media" for their failures and screaming from the rooftops how perfect their failing strategies are, and it's only the fault of the "system" that they keep failing by doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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Multiple people have posted 50 year old MLK quotes decrying exactly what youre doing, and were the only ones doing the same thing over and over and blaming others.

Lol yeah ok.

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Yeah, people who say ACAB are just like MLK. His ideas were controversial to "moderates" at the time, but he achieved great changes by simply repeating his famous slogan "All Whites Are Shitty People" over and over rather than advocating any concrete goals.
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MLK was a pacifist and one of the nice people ever about it and he still got spat on in the street, his life and family sabotaged by the FBI then he was eventually assassinated. So it doesn't matter what you say if they've already decided they hate the message.

Xeybozn posted...

Yeah, people who say ACAB are just like MLK. His ideas were controversial to "moderates" at the time, but he achieved great changes by simply repeating his famous slogan "All Whites Are Shitty People" over and over rather than advocating any concrete goals.

How about this? Reframe this conversation for Black Lives Matter and tell me how its different.

The anti-BLM people hate it because theyre offended. They actively think people who say Black Lives Matter are actual terrorists.

Oh wise moderate ones, educate us on what the phrase should be changed to to convert these people.

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My problem with ACAB isn't even with the slogan itself as much as that's literally where a lot of people just... stop. They "#acab" on Twitter and then go about their day. It's like when people posted a black image one day on instagram and were like "we're helping blm!" and then went about their lives like normal. There's too many people that are quick to rally around a dumb slogan, but then when it's time to actually do something, they suddenly can't be assed. It's easy to post ACAB, but not enough people actually want to come up with a plan for change.

Basically, people suck.

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I dunno, I think literally any police reforms would be a good startand a better use of all of our time than scolding people for saying ACAB?

Thats just me.

Like Sep, what do you want us to do?

Were not legislators, were not cops.

If you think ACAB begins and ends at the words as some gradeschool insult (which is what Chris was saying earlier and I ignored because its silly), youre being disingenuous. You know what we wantits the same thing you do!

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I didn't say everybody. I'm sure there definitely are people that want legitimate change.

There's just a vast majority that just want to look like they believe in something when they don't. And that's why it's going to be hard to get anywhere.

My point isn't to be negative about ACAB

My point is to be negative about where the country is in general. Sadly, a majority of people don't actually want or care about change, and they'll happily vote for the status quo when it comes down to it. The movement behind "ACAB" looks a lot bigger than it is, because people just toss around stuff like that for easy social media points but don't truly care.

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What meaningful push has been made for police reform though? Like what are people rallying behind? We can't even get the fucking president to acknowledge anything other than "racist cops bad, but we'll make them shoot people in the leg and make them take diversity training." But there's not any outrage or annoyance over that, because ACAB is just a nothing thing and people are content with that kind of answer. It's easy.

There's nothing behind ACAB, which is the problem. It's a movement saying "This thing is bad" but doesn't suggest any progress at all, and I frankly think it's just not helpful and hasn't done anything despite there being giant protests and everything going on. Like what meaningful reform has been discussed that's been unavoidable, on a larger scale, since George Floyd and the subsequent cop killings?

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I think we're moving onto a different problem here. I agree, there are far more people who just say "ACAB" and that's the beginning and end of their activism, but that's how it is with...everything.

Social media makes typing words out to the world super easy, and life, jobs, pandemics, etc make putting your life and livelihood at risk for physical demonstrations difficult.

But to put a bow on this, I don't think any of that has to do with the phrase "ACAB" itself.

It's an acknowledgement of the utterly poisoned system of policing, and frankly, it's better than vague suggestions of "guys let's try something different that maybe the Blue Lives Matter folks won't recoil against", which I need to reiterate, is such a complete waste of time, that it's ridiculous to act like it's the reason nothing gets done.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I think we're moving onto a different problem here. I agree, there are far more people who just say "ACAB" and that's the beginning and end of their activism, but that's how it is with...everything.

Social media makes typing words out to the world super easy, and life, jobs, pandemics, etc make putting your life and livelihood at risk for physical demonstrations difficult.

But to put a bow on this, I don't think any of that has to do with the phrase "ACAB" itself.

It's an acknowledgement of the utterly poisoned system of policing, and frankly, it's better than vague suggestions of "guys let's try something different that maybe the Blue Lives Matter folks won't recoil against", which I need to reiterate, is such a complete waste of time, that it's ridiculous to act like it's the reason nothing gets done.

Can you at least admit that ACAB doesn't help enact positive change in any way? And that it's largely a slogan for people to vent their anger without having to put any actual effort into enacting that change?

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Inviso posted...

And that it's largely a slogan for people to vent their anger

Yes, where the fuck have you been?

ACAB has been around for a long time and has always been a way to vent. It's not a slogan for convincing people.

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Sure! I never said "the phrase ACAB demonstrably improves the world", but also...why is that so important to you? There are a million examples where "nice/inoffensive phrasing" resulted in no positive change?

"Black Lives Matter" literally led to reactionaries creating "Blue Lives Matter", is that a positive change? I don't think it matters, because Black Lives DO Matter, I don't care how those shitheads who would never affect positive change react. Do you get what I'm saying?

Also, even if you disagree with the use of the phrase, I still think "Cops aren't bastards, they're murderers" is a pretty fucking bizarre and not-positive or effective thing either!


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Sure! I never said "the phrase ACAB demonstrably improves the world", but also...why is that so important to you? There are a million examples where "nice/inoffensive phrasing" resulted in no positive change?

"Black Lives Matter" literally led to reactionaries creating "Blue Lives Matter", is that a positive change? I don't think it matters, because Black Lives DO Matter, I don't care how those shitheads who would never affect positive change react. Do you get what I'm saying?

Also, even if you disagree with the use of the phrase, I still think "Cops aren't bastards, they're murderers" is a pretty fucking bizarre and not-positive or effective thing either!

You keep comparing ACAB to BLM, and those aren't nearly the same scale. Yes, disingenuous people misinterpretted BLM and started trying to twist it to mean something it didn't, but it's still an effective enough slogan to the majority of people. BLM's problem isn't the slogan, but rather the fact that its become associated with riots, which shifts public opinion more than anything. Note, I'm not condemning the riots. I think they're absolutely necessary since otherwise they get completely ignored. I'm just talking about how public perception shifts against it in a negative fashion.

With ACAB, it's immediately antagonistic and combative, and in immediately puts the entire movement on the back foot. It has no positive benefit and has definite negative benefits, and the end result is that the slogan makes people less willing to support police reform, since the people advocating for police reform come across as violent and extremist in their language.

You've regularly posted that MLK quote about white moderates, and it's right. White moderates ARE a stumbling block. But just constantly bitching them out and saying "You guys suck" is not a solution. It's just saying things to make yourself feel better, to the detriment of your cause. If white moderates are a stumbling block, then how do you propose to work around them? Keep in mind that you have a LARGE fucking chunk of this country that are right-wingers and would gladly push for policies that are the exact mirror image of everything you support, so you cannot afford to write off the moderates that are willing to be apathetic and least not work AGAINST you. If the ACAB slogan is antagonistic and scares those white moderates into thinking you're more of a threat than the murderous police force, then that's a net negative towards achieving your goals. It sucks, yes, I fully admit that it sucks from an ideological standpoint, but you have to be pragmatic once in a while.

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I've said it once and I'll say it again.

If the phrase "ACAB" repels someone into becoming a Blue Lives Matter supporter despite a discussion over what it means, that person was never open to the reforms necessary anyway.

Telling people to be pragmatic when the pragmatic folks aren't enacting reforms either is just telling angry (and oppressed) people to shut up, which is exactly the point of the MLK quote.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

If the phrase "ACAB" repels someone into becoming a Blue Lives Matter supporter despite a discussion over what it means, that person was never open to the reforms necessary anyway.

Telling people to be pragmatic when the pragmatic folks aren't enacting reforms either is just telling angry (and oppressed) people to shut up, which is exactly the point of the MLK quote.

*sigh* So once again, we're back to where we started. Nothing you do or say is wrong or needs to be changed in any way, and if it's hurtful to your cause, that's only because the media/the establishment/the voters are unflinchingly unreasonable and nothing you could ever do could change their minds, so better to never examine or change your attitude or actions in any way.

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fun fact nothing in the gamefaqs contests politics containment topic achieves anything

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It has at times achieved an increase in my blood pressure
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Inviso posted...

*sigh* So once again, we're back to where we started. Nothing you do or say is wrong or needs to be changed in any way, and if it's hurtful to your cause, that's only because the media/the establishment/the voters are unflinchingly unreasonable and nothing you could ever do could change their minds, so better to never examine or change your attitude or actions in any way.

How is it hurtful to my cause dude, we're posting on GameFAQs, it's not like I'm marching on the capitol with ACAB on a banner.

Like, ACAB is just a simple phrase that says "I recognize the entire system of policing is poisoned", and if you wanna talk about positive change, why not address THAT instead of demanding we acknowledge some unknowable 3rd party getting offended?

If you want to talk about actual ways to improve policing, I'm all for it! Saying "ACAB" doesn't preclude that!

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like if if someone's complaining that politicians won't say ACAB then I would get this argument taking pages but I don't think that's ever happened here

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

How is it hurtful to my cause dude, we're posting on GameFAQs, it's not like I'm marching on the capitol with ACAB on a banner.

Wow Corrik, way to completely shut down my post by taking it exactly literally and not extrapolating out that the attitude displayed on a message board is then applied out into the wider world (by people marching with ACAB signs, as your used in your example) among your progressive countrymen.

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Are you guys STILL talking about this

Must be a slow news day

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Oh god, it's a slow news day

Typing that sentence is legitimately heartwarming

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I mean this is still better content than any Corrik argument, to be fair.

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Inviso posted...

Wow Corrik, way to completely shut down my post by taking it exactly literally and not extrapolating out that the attitude displayed on a message board is then applied out into the wider world (by people marching with ACAB signs, as your used in your example) among your progressive countrymen.

I was being flippant because you didn't even respond to my last point.

Until you show me some pragmatic efforts realizing actual change, we're back to:

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Telling people to be pragmatic when the pragmatic folks aren't enacting reforms either is just telling angry (and oppressed) people to shut up, which is exactly the point of the MLK quote.

Also if you want to talk about me never admitting fault or posting anything negative about my "progressive countrymen", At the end of the last topic posted a twitter link of Bernie literally saying "$2000, in the form of $1400+$600", which is a big disappointment and a fat L, and nobody said a thing.

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The only thing keeping us together was Trumps daily torrent of horrible ideas and thoughts kept us from actually discussing policy.

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I mean, I could make the argument that selecting Joe Biden was the only option capable to taking down Trump in 2020. That's a pragmatic effort realizing actual change, even though you'll likely counter with "Well any Democrat would've beaten Trump in 2020!" (Which, lol)

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It's hard to argue about hypotheticals, but yes Joe was absolutely the pragmatic choice for President.

Now let's talk about police reform.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

I mean this is still better content than any Corrik argument, to be fair.

Than any? No. This is pretty bad.

Than average? Yeah.
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I'm way happier with Biden as President than I was with the idea at the start of the year. Biden isn't the same Biden he was then now. He's way more pissed off and willing to do his own thing. Going through a pandemic the GOP worsened and an insurrection they started will do that.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Well this post makes me feel like you're a moron but I knew that already

Explain why. Why did that make you feel powerless but not the same thing without a badge. Why did it make YOU feel POWERLESS?

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The useful thing about the acab slogan is that , if anyone is actually curious to understand you in good faith, it can definitely lead to someone hearing out how the issue is that the institution of police in this country is designed to be oppressive and that even a cop with good intentions would eventually end up complicit or fired. Understanding we need systemic change and not better training or some dumbass stuff you'll hear Biden call for is key, and that's why you have to say all of them rather than bad egg arguments.

Corrik7 posted...

Explain why. Why did that make you feel powerless but not the same thing without a badge. Why did it make YOU feel POWERLESS?

Because a criminal that breaks into your house and kills you has the deterrent of it being against the law. Sure, anyone still could break the law, but the knowledge that it's against the law IS a deterrent, and you know that if someone DOES break in and kill you, they'll at least receive punishment (assuming they're caught.)

Whereas, if the POLICE break into your house and kill you, unless you're talking about a rogue cop, it's usually going to be a completely legal matter. Hence Breonna Taylor, shot dead in her bed because the police broke into her house and started firing wildly (in response to her boyfriend firing a legal firearm at what he assumed were intruders, which HE is allowed to do due to the castle doctrine). No one punished, Breonna Taylor is still dead.

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Speaking of MLK, remember when the police murdered fred hampton as part of cointelpro? Anyway I wonder why all the prominent ferguson activists ended up dead!!

https://www.theroot.com/ferguson-activists-are-dying-and-it-s-time-to-ask-quest-1794955900

Inviso posted...

Because a criminal that breaks into your house and kills you has the deterrent of it being against the law. Sure, anyone still could break the law, but the knowledge that it's against the law IS a deterrent, and you know that if someone DOES break in and kill you, they'll at least receive punishment (assuming they're caught.)

Whereas, if the POLICE break into your house and kill you, unless you're talking about a rogue cop, it's usually going to be a completely legal matter. Hence Breonna Taylor, shot dead in her bed because the police broke into her house and started firing wildly (in response to her boyfriend firing a legal firearm at what he assumed were intruders, which HE is allowed to do due to the castle doctrine). No one punished, Breonna Taylor is still dead.

Don't argue with him on my behalf, Corrik already demonstrated in the last topic that he's incapable of understanding why people would hold cops to a higher standard or the fact that they are naturally protected from consequences just by their station.

In the situation I'm referring to (Botham Jean) the cop did face consequences, but there was a lengthy period of time where it didn't seem like it would happen!

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Inviso posted...

Because a criminal that breaks into your house and kills you has the deterrent of it being against the law. Sure, anyone still could break the law, but the knowledge that it's against the law IS a deterrent, and you know that if someone DOES break in and kill you, they'll at least receive punishment (assuming they're caught.)

Whereas, if the POLICE break into your house and kill you, unless you're talking about a rogue cop, it's usually going to be a completely legal matter. Hence Breonna Taylor, shot dead in her bed because the police broke into her house and started firing wildly (in response to her boyfriend firing a legal firearm at what he assumed were intruders, which HE is allowed to do due to the castle doctrine). No one punished, Breonna Taylor is still dead.

So you don't think cops that do illegal things are doing something illegal? Like, Breonna was a sad outcome but acting like cops shouldn't shoot back against people shooting against them is a bit weird? I mean, I get feeling helpless. But, I would feel helpless against any intruder, regardless of their status.

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oof

"Breonna was a sad outcome"

like come on man do you even hear yourself? take a time out.

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If Corrik is bringing up Breonna then it's 100% bait to get attention back on himself and absolutely fucking nobody should engage that shit.

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https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1358203095482855430?s=19

Bruh

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Bernie probably beats Trump also. He was always around the same level as Biden. Given that the (cant believe Im even saying this) socialist attack line not only got used but worked on Biden, its easy to see things going the exact same way.

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colliding posted...

oof

"Breonna was a sad outcome"

like come on man do you even hear yourself? take a time out.

They shot back at someone who shot them. It's not exactly rocket science.

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I don't think it worked on Biden since he actually won and outperformed the Dems as a whole.

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