Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 364: Absolute Proof (Citation Needed)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't see a problem at all, Tony. I agree with the message or ACAB and BLM. But I'm not who you need to appeal to. You need the vast majority of the country to be onboard with that messaging, and they're just not.

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Any call to defund or reform the police will be met with the exact same level of disdain as if it were ACAB already. It's just like Biden trying to call to Republicans. They aren't going to budge, they aren't going to help, no matter if you tell them to kick rocks or polish their boots with your tongue. Same for the public who defends cops; you think they'll soften to defund the police if we just aren't oh gosh super-meanie weanie to the cops? No! The only thing your doing is making ACAB one less person strong and obstructing it for no reason when you already agree with ACAB. Not saying ACAB isn't going to make anyone stupid suddenly join the movement to change the police force. It just isn't. It's just like what LGBT people used to say- oh let's not be so gay, let's not be flamboyant, maybe conservatives will be more tolerant of us; SPOILER ALERT; that didn't work either! Of course the powers that be want us divided, want us being less aggressive, but it won't help a damn bit with getting Grandma Cop-Lover on side.

I am sure I have mentioned this before but politics is a deeply personal affair for me. The biggest thing for me is healthcare because my mom died due to a lack of affordable care that she was too scared to even bother going to doctors more. It let me know first hand how cruel the system is and why I will not accept half measures. It is why I get so angry sometimes, because there is a lot of pain there for me and I swallow that pain and I grip it deep inside of me and I use it to advocate my positions.

The person I love most in the world talks to me all the time that she is afraid something will happen to her because of the color of her skin. She talks about our son, our three year old baby boy who is the most precious thing in this world, who likes to pretend to be a cat and loves firetrucks, inheriting this world from us. It is scary. Now when my son gets scared all I have to say is that "Dad is here, dad will protect you" and he just hugs me and instantly calms down. But there are things in this world dad can't protect little Luke from, many things he has no idea about and one of them is the color of his skin.

I can't help but to want to scream at you guys sometimes. You are all just so... stupid. It honestly pisses me off, to the point where I do have to take breaks from the topic because that anger just won't do me any good. It is so important to me that we get this right. I don't think I could survive burying my son, to be honest. I think I would die from grief.

And I hate when people don't understand people. 80% of people aren't plugged in. Because the Republican party has made it impossible to be. Low wages, worried about healthcare, exhausted from the stress. They hear an ad about how all cops are bastards and they go "Uh, what, that's not true Tom is always willing to help fix my car." You can't get give them the easy bait. But you do, because you love jerking yourselves off more than actually winning policy debates. And a little part of me, just a very small part, that lives in fear for my family's future hates you all for it.

And that's my Sunday rant, sorry if I offended you all.


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The media that controls the ads that 80% of people will hear will lie to make our side look bad no matter what they say. The solution isn't found in oh well they won the propaganda war cause we've gotta be nice to cops now even as they murder people in street with no repercussions.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

The media that controls the ads that 80% of people will hear will lie to make our side look bad no matter what they say. The solution isn't found in oh well they won the propaganda war cause we've gotta be nice to cops now even as they murder people in street with no repercussions.

If you are so bad at misrepresenting what I am saying you are no better than the media you cry about.

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Tell me how I'm misrepresenting what you're saying whatsoever

"we've gotta be nice to cops"

"call them murderers, cite specific examples, press Politicians on the merits to force change."

"hurr want to say bastard."

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Chris, the fundamental issue here is you think the message matters. It does not. People who are pro-cop will not change under any circumstance until it affects them personally. The wording doesn't effect this, they just pretend that it does as a convenient excuse to justify themselves.

So unfortunately it's my belief that there is no actual hope and all you can do is get angry.

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affect
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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Chris, the fundamental issue here is you think the message matters. It does not. People who are pro-cop will not change under any circumstance until it effects them personally. The wording doesn't effect this, they just pretend that it does as a convenient excuse to justify themselves.

So unfortunately it's my belief that there is no actual hope and all you can do is get angry.

Well, then indeed they have already won. Might as well just enjoy the anime and games until we all die rather than discuss hopeless things.

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That's the very definition of misrepresenting what someone is saying which is pretty funny. You can do all of that middle part, but if you say bastards the movement is ruined! You don't think the average person will say when hearing cops are murderers on your theoretical media ad "What, Tom isn't a murder or a murder-coverupper, he helped fix my car" just the damn same?

Look if you want to agree with LtM and say it is hopeless fair enough, we can talk about something more pleasant and move on. I don't like talking to losers about the subject they like to lose in, it is depressing.

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NFUN posted...

affect

I will never get this right.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Well, then indeed they have already won. Might as well just enjoy the anime and games until we all die rather than discuss hopeless things.

This being nice shit happens IN EVERY SINGLE MOVEMENT that HAS EVER HAPPENED. There is ALWAYS a group who is like dude y'all lets slow down and suck our oppressors dick a little, yeah? Maybe people will see our like us more! And then they say oh well they'll just hate us anyway? It's hopeless! And then eventually the super aggressive group wins. Like with gay marriage.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

This being nice shit happens IN EVERY SINGLE MOVEMENT that HAS EVER HAPPENED. There is ALWAYS a group who is like dude y'all lets slow down and suck our oppressors dick a little, yeah? Maybe people will see our like us more! And then they say oh well they'll just hate us anyway? It's hopeless! And then eventually the super aggressive group wins. Like with gay marriage.

I get that they have made you feel small and using this language makes you feel strong, but it just shows you how weak you are tbh

also comparing this to gay marriage is kind of an odd joke.


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Explain how instead of just saying bullshit

I'll pass, you are just talking nonsense tbh

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Whoa what a convenience you don't even have to defend your side

Honestly you aren't worth my time.

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Time to get personal because you have no substance to your argument

Oh fine, I'll type out the whole sentence.

"The points you have made in favor of your position are lacking and not worth my consideration to discuss further."

I wasn't actually trying to insult you, but can see how it could be taken as such

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"You, referring specifically to me, are not worth my time" Why would I not be worth your time, and even better how is this not an insult? And also, how are my points lacking? Or is it just that you're lacking any substance with which to refute them.

Well I mean you did say my position is...

*checks notes*

let's suck some cop cock.

You're right, a lot there to discuss.

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I don't love the ACAB slogan either. Normally I don't mind incendiary statements, but only because I think the issue is far too nuanced to just pin it on cops. It's the entire fucking system that is abhorrent. It's a complete travesty and saying ACAB immediately gets linked to just saying 'fuck cops' rather than the discussion that all cops can't be good because the system is so pervasive they can't even do anything about bad cops, making them bad as well.

I agree in that I feel it detracts from the overall movement and it allows for politicians (on both sides of the spectrum) to allow that to take center stage so they can keep blathering on about "well if we give them better training it'll be a-okay!" or "we'll teach them to shoot in the leg so nobody gets too killed." Because them being able to hide behind saying things like that rather than the actual focus being the system just doesn't help matters. Like give Joe Biden questions about the freaking police contracts and ask him why it's impossible for fair investigations to be made or ask him why police officer records can be completely expunged in a stupidly short amount of time. Because until those kind of questions are the focus and not "boy howdy, just what're we going to do about these cops fatally shooting people or the systemic racism?" then we're not going to get any change.

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I said there's always a position who thinks let's suck some oppressor cock is a good idea and all they do is serve to slow down the aggressive movement that actually eventually gets things done as you can observe in almost every struggle the common people have had in America from labor disputes getting passed, Roe v Wade, all the way to the fight for gay marriage.

I don't think you know as much about the gay marriage movement as you think you do <_<. You keep using it as an example. They weren't led by people saying "christians are bastards for denying us this right"

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The way I see it, the vast majority of America supports cops. Loves cops, even. Hence just how many prime time television shows glorify cops and paint them all as heroes, protecting and serving us (while very rarely touching on any issues that ACAB is a response to.)

However, one of the good things about our country being such shit is that the population is largely apathetic about issues that don't directly affect them. So, despite being major cop fanboys, the voting populous isn't going to turn out in their favor just on a whim. So a targeted activism campaign that works on both informing malleable minds and avoiding aggravating people can pay dividends.

But when you adopt a message like ACAB, that comes across as extremely militant, and turns you into a direct and open enemy of that vast majority of population who supports the police, inspiring them to turn out AGAINST you as an existential threat to their beloved cops.

Basically, if you are ACAB, you're going to be anti-police regardless of whether or not you shout it from the rooftops. What you need is for the majority ACAH (All Cops Are Heroes) crowd to stay complacent and apathetic so they don't turn out to fight you in matters you're passionate about.

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"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

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Uhhh I was there when the fight for gay marriage started on the ground floor when there were like five of us getting spat on by the public you so want to court and did activism working for many many years to get it passed so choose your words carefully. There have been a million stories. But I remember this one particular instance, "we're here, we're queer, get used to it!" was much maligned as too aggressive, and people in the community just wanted us to tone down being gay, just act straight, to appease the non-LGBT watching but that doesn't work because it doesn't matter how you act it's your policy that they don't like and anything else is just an excuse to not like it. They will find another excuse.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

I was desperately trying not to post this quote but BOY was I feeling it. Like, I literally have it in my clipboard right now but held back.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I get that they have made you feel small and using this language makes you feel strong, but it just shows you how weak you are tbh

Man, what the fuck is this bullshit. I'm black, I've got black family, and you know what actually made me feel the most powerless? When I learned a cop in the city I live in walked into a man's home and shot him dead for no reason. And you want to act like radical rhetoric and action is really a sign of weakness? Just shut up man.

I'll say it again: ACAB is not a slogan for you if you can't understand this. It's not for the politicians. But if you'd rather use your time and energy talking down to people instead of focusing on the common ground you are actively choosing to side with the police when you could be doing anything else productive.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Man, what the fuck is this bullshit. I'm black, I've got black family, and you know what actually made me feel the most powerless? When I learned a cop in the city I live in walked into a man's home and shot him dead for no reason. And you want to act like radical rhetoric and action is really a sign of weakness? Just shut up man.

I'll say it again: ACAB is not a slogan for you if you can't understand this. It's not for the politicians. But if you'd rather use your time and energy talking down to people instead of focusing on the common ground you are actively choosing to side with the police when you could be doing anything else productive.

Well, good luck changing the world with an insult. I'll be rooting for you.


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Inviso posted...

The way I see it, the vast majority of America supports cops. Loves cops, even. Hence just how many prime time television shows glorify cops and paint them all as heroes, protecting and serving us (while very rarely touching on any issues that ACAB is a response to.)

However, one of the good things about our country being such shit is that the population is largely apathetic about issues that don't directly affect them. So, despite being major cop fanboys, the voting populous isn't going to turn out in their favor just on a whim. So a targeted activism campaign that works on both informing malleable minds and avoiding aggravating people can pay dividends.

Like I was saying before I think it's just a forced Media perception that everyone loves cops. They constantly inundate us with good cop stories, hero cop shows, the show COPS, and it's just the Media that loves cops and people are too apathetic or stupid to mentally fight against that much. The Media just wants to protect American institutions like cops or Wall-Street, y'all saw how quickly the media (all media, Fox, CNN, News Websites) formed up Voltron to protect Wall-Street with articles being like REDDIT BAD HEDGE FUND GOOD. Like, literally, I'm not even exaggerating. And now the public perception of the Gamestop people in the public is a bad one. And they didn't even do anything like a catchy slogan. Well it's the same with cops, the Media will form up Voltron to protect cops, saying literally anything they want (propagana, outright lies) to sway the public so you could say yes it is hopeless, but only hopeless in the sense of courting the stupid who are too dumb to research on their own. It's not a hopefless fight.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Uhhh I was there when the fight for gay marriage started on the ground floor when there were like five of us getting spat on by the public you so want to court and did activism working for many many years to get it passed so choose your words carefully. There have been a million stories. But I remember this one particular instance, "we're here, we're queer, get used to it!" was much maligned as too aggressive, and people in the community just wanted us to tone done being gay to appease the non-LGBT watching but that doesn't work because it doesn't matter how you act it's your policy that they don't like and anything else is just an excuse to not like it. They will find another excuse.

Honestly, gay marriage is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. In 2008, California had a proposition on the ballot to legalize gay marriage. 2008 was also the year Barack Obama was on the ballot for the presidency. And in 2008, voters turned out en masse (especially minority voters) to vote for Barack Obama...which, despite him being a liberal candidate, also led to the gay marriage legalization failing at the polls. Essentially, the opportunity to vote for Barack Obama inspired a large number of minority voters to turn out compared to their regular numbers...but those voters are historically religious conservatives, and their inspiration to vote led to them turning out to vote against gay marriage, which was a policy in stark contrast to their religious conservative values.

If you support a policy that has minority support in the overall population, then inspiring apathy among your detractors is a far more effective strategy than trying to convert them to your cause. It's the reason the GOP is still a relevant political party, since all they need to do is make Democrats feel like everything is hopeless and nothing will ever change, and their reduce voters turnout and win elections.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Man, what the fuck is this bullshit. I'm black, I've got black family, and you know what actually made me feel the most powerless? When I learned a cop in the city I live in walked into a man's home and shot him dead for no reason. And you want to act like radical rhetoric and action is really a sign of weakness? Just shut up man.

I'll say it again: ACAB is not a slogan for you if you can't understand this. It's not for the politicians. But if you'd rather use your time and energy talking down to people instead of focusing on the common ground you are actively choosing to side with the police when you could be doing anything else productive.

Yeah, I agree with this dude, what the hell? I'm not insulting you, but you're small? Get the hell out of here with that bullshit Doom

Meh, my disdain for stupidity sometimes becomes too opaque. Not very civil of me, I admit. I am in the wrong here.

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"I'm in the wrong but I'm still gonna call you stupid." - DoomTheGracious

I am nothing if not honest.

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@UshiromiyaEva Just try to remember that "effect" is a noun, and "affect" is a verb (there's an exception, but it doesn't come up often). Maybe a mnemonic like "affect is action" could help
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Might as well just enjoy the anime and games until we all die

Currently the best take~

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Well, good luck changing the world with an insult. I'll be rooting for you.

Good luck changing the world by being holier-than-thou and out of touch, I guess Joe Biden will be our savior after all

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Legit thanks for the grammar lesson, lol.

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Kinglicious posted...

Currently the best take~

The system is designed to make us feel hopeless so we just get our meager joy from things in our twenty allotted minutes of free time (anime and games) and then get back to work propping up the system and trying not to think too much about our lot in life because we're just desperate to survive and have a little fun. And the system is working as intended. I'm mentally exhausted from wasting my time being insulted repeatedly by someone that was basically on my side with me just struggling to get them to ignore the observers because they aren't going to join anyway. So how are we going to do anything. Think I'm going to go play video games and try not to think about the larger world outside my house for a while.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Good luck changing the world by being holier-than-thou and out of touch, I guess Joe Biden will be our savior after all

Can't lie this made me laugh.

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i've never known anyone that actually likes cops, and I live in a relatively conservative / rich city in the ontario 905 area

they're either traffic trolls or unhelpful aggressive assholes who tag along to emergencies making shit worse

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tons and tons of people in the 60s thought the civil rights movement was going too fast, and that MLK was too rude/demanding, and that a better course of action would be to just accept the way the world was and progress slowly as to 'not offend' whites

i'll let that be interpreted as you will

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Those last two posts and the thing Tony quoted are exactly what I was saying

This year will mark 53 years since he was assassinated. He would have turned 92 this year. He was a great man.

The limitation of riots, moral questions aside, is that they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence, rioting is not revolutionary but reactionary because it invites defeat. It involves an emotional catharsis, but it must be followed by a sense of futility.

and perhaps the one that understands my anger best

There can be no deep disappointment where there is not deep love.

I just want a better future for my son. I'd call you stupid a million times if it made it so. But it won't. I know that deep down.

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You got kids, PerfectChaosZ?

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It wont. Im not the one keeping your son from having a better future. But I am someone who actually cares about your son having a better future unlike the passive observer who is turned off by a snappy slogan when theyre not turned off by the fact that cops murder black folks in the street.