Current Events > How do you feel about getting people fired for being racist?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Rexdragon125 posted...

Yikes some people here don't want to keep their hatred of minorities to themselves

Who said that?

Teenman posted...

The problem with firing people over racism is the definition keeps changing.

I disagree. The definition of racism hasn't changed all that significantly. What has changed is society's ability to see it, perceive it, and react to it. Not to mention the will to do the same.

In the past, employers simply didn't have the will to fire people over racist things they saw within their company, unless it was overt, public, and/or actually directly harmed someone. They could totally have done so if they wanted to, but it wasn't something that typically impacted business unless it fell under those categories.

Now they do, and it largely relies on society being more aware of it.

Teenman posted...

At this point, we are just creating angry people that feel ostracized. This will just cause more racism and eventually someone or multiple someones are going to start shooting up workplaces.

I refuse to let assholes be assholes under the fear that they'll become worse. That is essentially negotiating with terrorists.

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CyricZ posted...

I disagree. The definition of racism hasn't changed all that significantly. What has changed is society's ability to see it, perceive it, and react to it. Not to mention the will to do the same.

In the past, employers simply didn't have the will to fire people over racist things they saw within their company, unless it was overt, public, and/or actually directly harmed someone. They could totally have done so if they wanted to, but it wasn't something that typically impacted business unless it fell under those categories.

Now they do, and it largely relies on society being more aware of it.

I refuse to let assholes be assholes under the fear that they'll become worse. That is essentially negotiating with terrorists.

Dont negotiate, educate. Racism should be treated the same as sexual harassment to an extent. Have them take a course and give them a chance. If they dont learn then fire them.

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Teenman posted...

Dont negotiate, educate. Racism should be treated the same as sexual harassment to an extent. Have them take a course and give them a chance. If they dont learn then fire them.

I've taken this route before and the general response you get is "iT iSn'T mY jOb To EduCaTe RaCiStS oR tO bE tHe BiGgEr MaN"

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shockthemonkey posted...

People who get defensive over racists getting fired for being racist are suspect

Because firing them doesn't address the root cause or reason of why they're racist. In fact it can lead to them just becoming more racist.

If Person A suddenly becomes a social pariah and companies across the nation refuse to hire them because there's video of them saying a choice word then guess who is going to come knocking on their door? People with an agenda. The KKK. White supremacists. They're going to offer them a group, an identity, a belonging. They're going to receive employment or opportunity within racist circles. And become more and more racist.

I get firing actual violent, or hate filled racists. But it shouldn't be the first step for non violent ones or uneducated ones. Simply being labeled (whether one is or not) a racist shouldn't be an effective (social) death sentence, because there are bad elements that will take advantage of the disaffected.

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wackyteen posted...

I've taken this route before and the general response you get is "iT iSn'T mY jOb To EduCaTe RaCiStS oR tO bE tHe BiGgEr MaN"

Gotcha. I think the vast majority, dont understand that hard-cut solutions dont work and never have. They dont actually solve the problem. Its like when you were a kid and cleaning up your mess was throwing it all in the closet or hiding it under your bed.

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MasterVading posted...

Cancel Culture sucks period.

So toxic

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when you're at work, you should be able to get along with your coworkers regardless of their race, gender, etc.

At this point in America, you cannot be okay with being racist. There's no reason that a grown person should not know that it's wrong.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Ok? Is that supposed to be an employer or coworkerss responsibility?

It should be a shared social responsibility to your fellow citizen to help them understand.

shockthemonkey posted...

Bro, the f*** is wrong with you? Yeah if they get fired they might join the KKK! Like if anyone was thinking about that, they f***ing deserve to be fired and unemployed and never hold any sort of power anywhere ever.

I'm not saying they started out that way.

I'm saying if they're so disaffected that they can't receive employment because over night they became a social pariah, and nobody wants anything to do with them then it may drive them to extremism because that's the only people who will accept them, even if what they did wasn't necessarily the worst thing ever.

shockthemonkey posted...

And anyone who is punished for being racist and then doubles down on being more racist is a f***ing moron. Youre proving my point.

If you take away their economic mobility and opportunities, strip them of their home, their clothes, their family, and abandon them on the side of the road because they said something choice or came across badly in an argument then what the fuck do you expect them to do? Come crawling back begging for forgiveness? You already demonstrated these people aren't worth shit. You think so little of them that they could fucking die and you wouldn't care. So why should they want to come crawling back to you? They're going to be driven to extremism because you've created a class of disaffected individuals that have been deemed social pariahs, unfit for anything other than ridicule.

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Teenman posted...

Dont negotiate, educate. Racism should be treated the same as sexual harassment to an extent.

Every job I've been involved with for the past twenty years has had strict education with regards to racism, sexism, and many other forms of discrimination.

Employers absolutely set the standard of what must be followed to continue working for them. Those who do not follow that standard do so willfully, usually confident that they won't be disciplined.

So I guess you could say yeah, it isn't my job. It's the employer's job. Joe Public off the street is not the one responsible for banging on a business' window and yelling "HEY! JUST WANTED TO CALMLY TALK TO YOU FOR A BIT ABOUT THE RACIST THING YOU DO SO YOU'LL BE BETTER!" You report that shit to the supervisor, and they decide where to take it.

Also there is an embarrassing amount of evidence that shows that racists don't get less racist through gentle conversation. They change via real consequence. Joe Public is not someone to give that real consequence, but an employer is.

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1NfamousACE_2 posted...

At this point in America, you cannot be okay with being racist. There's no reason that a grown person should not know that it's wrong.

And I'm not okay with it.

I'm just not okay with throwing people out to the curb and forever refusing them reentry.

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If getting fired for being racist only causes someone to become "more" racist then they weren't salvageable in the first place, because it means they're incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions (which probably showed up in other areas of their work as well), and no HR department can simply train that out of people.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Ok? Is that supposed to be an employer or coworkerss responsibility?

Bro, the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah if they get fired they might join the KKK! Like if anyone was thinking about that, they fucking deserve to be fired and unemployed and never hold any sort of power anywhere ever. This is the stupidest fucking argument.

And anyone who is punished for being racist and then doubles down on being more racist is a fucking moron. Youre proving my point.

Youre also proving his. If these people cant be employed, they dont have much of an option other than crime or organizations lead by hate groups. Youre to clear cut. Lets just start giving everyone the max sentence for everything and see how well it works out.

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I think its not really much different from anything else you can get fired for doing even if youre not at work when you do it.

Keep that shit private if you dont want it coming back to bite you. Once it goes public and pressure is put on the employer to get rid of you they can justifiably claim that youre costing them money or damaging their reputation.

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CyricZ posted...

Every job I've been involved with for the past twenty years has had strict education with regards to racism, sexism, and many other forms of discrimination.

Employers absolutely set the standard of what must be followed to continue working for them. Those who do not follow that standard do so willfully, usually confident that they won't be disciplined.

So I guess you could say yeah, it isn't my job. It's the employer's job. Joe Public off the street is not the one responsible for banging on a business' window and yelling "HEY! JUST WANTED TO CALMLY TALK TO YOU FOR A BIT ABOUT THE RACIST THING YOU DO SO YOU'LL BE BETTER!" You report that shit to the supervisor, and they decide where to take it.

Also there is an embarrassing amount of evidence that shows that racists don't get less racist through gentle conversation. They change via real consequence. Joe Public is not someone to give that real consequence, but an employer is.

if you say so. Your solution doesnt work, otherwise we wont see firings basically everyday on the news and social media. The racists already understand the possible consequences but keep doing as they always have anyway.

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CyricZ posted...

Also there is an embarrassing amount of evidence that shows that racists don't get less racist through gentle conversation. They change via real consequence. Joe Public is not someone to give that real consequence, but an employer is.

It's like the whole 'argument' (obviously not well-intentioned) certain people try to have about "You can't punch Nazis! You have to reason with them!"

Like fuck that, coddling these people is the reason they've gotten so bad in the first place.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Youre justifying why people should join the KKK. Youre suspect.

I'm not saying they should.

I'm saying that's who the KKK prey on. The disaffected. The social pariahs. The people abandoned by society. If you create these people en masse then what can you expect?

shockthemonkey posted...

Youre trying so hard to justify people joining the KKK

I'm not saying they'd be justified in joining.

I'm saying you're leaving them little choice by being so extreme.

If someone gets fired and has no chances to be hired anywhere else, what are they supposed to do? I want to know what YOU expect them to do.

Go to college and get a degree?

Alright, they do that and 5 years down the road, the HR for all the companies they apply to runs their name through Google and they see the racist comment they made "welp can't hire them! Pass"

It creates an endless punishment. It doesn't allow for a chance to grow and be a better person. So when they're so disaffected that no matter what they do will never be good enough for society because they were at one time outed as a racist then of course the dregs of society will prey on them

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shockthemonkey posted...

They can be employed. They choose to make themselves unemployable.

By one act that has a forever consequence.

It isn't like society at large stops and looks at only recent acts. We see people get canceled for choice and edgy jokes from 5-10+ years ago all the goddamned time.

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Imagine if people found out the real identities of some of the users here.

I love it. They deserve worse.

What do you guys think? @BlackHorse6969 , @Solid_Sonic , @3khc , @FightingGames

Consciousness posted...

Imagine if people found out the real identities of some of the users here.

Why so you can cancel them? Nobody here has said anything racist.

So now we can be canceled for saying that creating a whole class of economically disaffected individuals isn't the best idea in the world?

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Consciousness posted...

Imagine if people found out the real identities of some of the users here.

They would try to destroy people that they dont even know like sociopaths. Humans are awful.

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Teenman posted...

if you say so. Your solution doesnt work, otherwise we wont see firings basically everyday on the news and social media. The racists already understand the possible consequences but keep doing as they always have anyway.

This sounds like an argument stating that clearly they're not being punished severely enough.

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Consciousness posted...

I love it. They deserve worse.

Like?

Imagine losing your house, your job, your social circle. Any job you apply to refuses to hire you even if you learned your lesson?

Besides fucking killing them, there isn't a much worse fate.

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wackyteen posted...

Why so you can cancel them? Nobody here has said anything racist.

So now we can be canceled for saying that creating a whole class of economically disaffected individuals isn't the best idea in the world?

Nobody here has said anything racist? You mean on this site as a whole or just this topic? If you think no one here has ever been racist then you haven't been here long.

Depends on where they show the racism I knew a racist that actually would discipline employees for racisism saying they should leave personal oponions at home and it wasnt professional. I know that's probably rare but id give him a pass

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shockthemonkey posted...

If someones reaction to being punished for racism is to be more racist then theyre demonstrating why they shouldnt be given the benefit of the doubt

Their reaction isn't to immediately be more racist.

Their lack of economic mobility and social mobility leaves them to be preyed upon.

Its fucked up, all around.

Unless they're a violent racist, they should be punished then forgiven (to a degree) so they don't become so depressed or fed up that they turn more racist.

shockthemonkey posted...

No but you are justifying them joining.

I'm saying who the KKK preys on. Don't want them to join the KKK, leave them some opportunities to rejoin society.

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CyricZ posted...

This sounds like an argument stating that clearly they're not being punished severely enough.

Its up to interpretation and I guess it could be read that way. Just trying to get across your current solution doesnt work and society needs to come up with a better solution. Education is key, starting with people as children is probably your best bet.

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Consciousness posted...

Imagine if people found out the real identities of some of the users here.

Hothlin has literally doxxed multiple people and harassed them irl
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The thing with these racists is that online they can hide behind anonymity but their nature is such that even in public places where they have to put on a fake personality, once in a while their actual racist self will come out. Hopefully, there will be lots of cameras and people there to witness it so these people can be appropriately punished.

Teenman posted...

Education is key, starting with people as children is probably your best bet.

And this sounds like an argument that adults should be given up on because they'll probably never change.

We can't make these people go back to their youth and relearn their formative years. Of course doing better with the next generation is key, but we still have to reconcile with the matter of dealing with this generation. If you think "my solution" isn't good, then by all means come up with a better one.

And I use quotes because it isn't my solution. It's a societal solution. It's the one in place now, and I sure as hell didn't come up with it.

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All I'm asking for is for people to exercise caution and to be willing to accept the punished back into society.

If the mentality is "once a racist, always a racist" can you be mad at the racist for never becoming a not-racist since no matter what actions they took to show they became a better person, you don't care and still think of them as a racist?

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@CyricZ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw

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CyricZ posted...

And this sounds like an argument that adults should be given up on because they'll probably never change.

They'll never change if you punish them with a punishment that doesn't end. They'll see the writing on the wall and keep doing what they were doing that got them in trouble. If you offer them opportunities to rejoin society after they've been punished then they might learn their lesson and grow.

CyricZ posted...

We can't make these people go back to their youth and relearn their formative years.

That's why giving them opportunities to show they've become a better person is key.

CyricZ posted...

If you think "my solution" isn't good, then by all means come up with a better one.

Punish them, shame them, then forgive (maybe not forget), and allow them the opportunity for growth.

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CyricZ posted...

And this sounds like an argument that adults should be given up on because they'll probably never change.

We can't make these people go back to their youth and relearn their formative years. Of course doing better with the next generation is key, but we still have to reconcile with the matter of dealing with this generation. If you think "my solution" isn't good, then by all means come up with a better one.

And I use quotes because it isn't my solution. It's a societal solution. It's the one in place now, and I sure as hell didn't come up with it.

Just pointing out flaws and giving my opinion, no need to get angry. You nor I are in a position that we could make changes. Relax a bit, neither of our opinions are invalid. Just different solutions to a the same problem.

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Hard racism that comes from a place of actual hatred of looking down on black people should be fireable, perhaps even if shown years down the line.

Soft racism, like a bunch of YouTubers doing black face or making a cringy joke when we as a society were much less touchy about stuff 15 yrs ago and they didn't have any hate or condescension behind it, should not be a fireable/cancelable offense.

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Hell yeah.

I hear racist talk all the time when I'm working the bar. If i call people out in it, I'm likely to lose my job or at least lose money for my boss.

Racists getting called out should be normalised.

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Is there any evidence that these people are not being allowed to grow and find a new way to contribute to society after their initial punishment?

Remember that there are a lot of ways to contribute that don't make the person public, obvious, powerful, and influential. Take your old pal Cyric, here. Most of you guys don't even know what I do, yet I do it and contribute to society.

The punishment may be that powerful and influential people who have been brought down don't get to be that again, and I ask you, is that too harsh?

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As long as they aren't being racist on the job and stay professional, there is no reason to fire them.

If they're being racist on the job and harassing customers and fellow co-workers, they can kiss their job good-bye.

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CyricZ posted...

Is there any evidence that these people are not being allowed to grow and find a new way to contribute to society after their initial punishment?

Remember that there are a lot of ways to contribute that don't make the person public, obvious, powerful, and influential. Take your old pal Cyric, here. Most of you guys don't even know what I do, yet I do it and contribute to society.

The punishment may be that powerful and influential people who have been brought down don't get to be that again, and I ask you, is that too harsh?

No, its not. But it would be if a minimum wage worker or middle class worker couldnt find a job. I was never referring to officials, just your average person. Those are the people who will turn to crime when they have no where to go.

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CyricZ posted...

Is there any evidence that these people are not being allowed to grow and find a new way to contribute to society after their initial punishment?

I will concede I am being a bit hyperbolic to make a point. I'm taking things to an extreme end where society abandons them. Do I think it happens often? No.

CyricZ posted...

Remember that there are a lot of ways to contribute that don't make the person public, obvious, powerful, and influential. Take your old pal Cyric, here. Most of you guys don't even know what I do, yet I do it and contribute to society.

I know what you do on this website. It's disgusting /s

CyricZ posted...

The punishment may be that powerful and influential people who have been brought down don't get to be that again, and I ask you, is that too harsh?

Tbh the powerful and influential aren't who I'm talking about. They'll be fine. They got money to last several decades if not lifetimes.

I'm talking about the man or woman who managed to do well for their family, then they get outed for a racist word, thought or came across bad in an interaction with a POC and they get fired, shamed, and lose their house, job, family etc.

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Lil_Bit83 posted...

As long as they aren't being racist on the job and stay professional, there is no reason to fire them.

If they're being racist on the job and harassing customers and fellow co-workers, they can kiss their job good-bye.

So, a doctor that is racist and in private says he hates all black people should be allowed to see and treat black patients?

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