Board 8 > Magic the Gathering bans racist cards

(+) Yeah! (+)

Thank you for giving us your view. I really do appreciate that. I'd much rather hear from someone directly affected than from people speaking on behalf of other people. Many Native Americans prefer the term Indian, for instance, which runs counter to everything PC culture mandates.

I find it interesting you assume that use of gypsies in any media is negative, considering my experience in video games is that they're usually just depicted as traveling people in wagons, and a convenient way for the developers to put a "town" in the middle of nowhere. One of my earliest video game experiences was in Quest For Glory IV, where the gypsies and their culture become very important to the game (and not in a negative way.) So I've never held any kind of negative connotation to the word, which is why it was so shocking earlier when someone earlier in the thread said it was a slur.

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azuarc posted...

I find it interesting you assume that use of gypsies in any media is negative, considering my experience in video games is that they're usually just depicted as traveling people in wagons

That description's part of the problem, considering not all Romani are "traveling people in wagons."
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So I was doing some research into this and I found out the government of Canada lists it as "Roma (Gyspy)" in the census. Interesting.

Also, wow I did not know this word was derived from the word gypsy.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gyp

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I thought Crusade was supposed to be decently playable?

Unless I'm just confusing it with Balance because of the similar knights in the art?

Anyway, I think some of these are a stretch, but whatever.

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BlackDra90n posted...

So I was doing some research into this and I found out the government of Canada lists it as "Roma (Gyspy)" in the census. Interesting.

Also, wow I did not know this word was derived from the word gypsy.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gyp

This one did use to bother me more. But I think most people are like you and don't get the connection.

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As for the 1488 thing, that is horrible and removing it is definitely the right move, but I thought the numbers were just by order of release and alphabetical within each set? 1487 is In the Eye of Chaos and 1489 is Juxtapose (both also from Legends), so I think it really was some terrible coincidence.

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BlackDra90n posted...

Also, wow I did not know this word was derived from the word gypsy.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gyp

I actually didn't know this either, I always just thought it was spelled jip

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Calling the card "Romani" and then showing a bunch of wagon people would also be, if not necessarily racist, then stereotypical and exoticist at minimum. That isn't guaranteed to be an issue, and there are plenty of conversations to be had regarding Romani culture, but Magic is about summoning monsters and casting spells, not complex politico-cultural struggles. So ok, fair


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Hm. Ok then

I don't think it was necessary but I wouldn't lose sleep over it either. I really wonder though, if they didn't just multiply awareness of the issue by 1,000 by taking action on it in the first place

I wonder how long this had been on the back of someone's mind at wizards before they finally did it. You know someone's been scratching their head about those once a year or so for three decades now.

azuarc posted...

Depends on if this is only the beginning.

heres the thing

so far these are very old cards that theyve banned and, crusade excluded, cards they would never have reprinted anyway, so theres basically no cost to WotC banning them

whether or not there are more recent cards that could be deemed equally offensive to imprison, it seems really unlikely that they would ban anything anyone actually cares about unless it was somehow egregiously racist and I cant imagine a remotely recent card that would qualify

I expect theyll ban a few other cards from the super early days, but that will almost certainly be the end of it.
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BlackDra90n posted...

Also, wow I did not know this word was derived from the word gypsy.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gyp

I remember we learned this in middle school. But gypsy itself being a slur I only heard about in the past few years.
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i know in the common american zeitgeist "Gypsy" basically meant "traveler", but when you eventually learn the real meaning of things you can sometimes decide to keep up with the times. Looking at the word as descriptive of a specific people just puts it in a different light.

come to think of it, if they had a card called "Pradesh Jews", that would be pretty awkward in a fantasy setting, too, even though the word jew isn't offensive


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I imagine that if any cards get banned that remain useable in the current meta, or cards with effects for a specific type when there are other legal cards that offer the same effect for different types, that WotC could easily make new cards with the same effect as the banned ones to replace them.

GavsEvans123 posted...

I imagine that if any cards get banned that remain useable in the current meta, or cards with effects for a specific type when there are other legal cards that offer the same effect for different types, that WotC could easily make new cards with the same effect as the banned ones to replace them.

For current cards yes (though I would be surprised if any newish cards were offensive enough to ban); if they have to ban anything people care about in legacy, in many cases they won't be able to make functional reprints due to the reserve list (unless they've went back on that since I last payed attention to Magic?)

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No, it is true that, in the past, they have refused to make functional reprints of cards on the Reserved List. Not that anyone cares about Invoke Prejudice for non-racist reasons, but if that were somehow a card with a useful effect, it would be hard to replace it for this reason.

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Oh man, they banned 7 cards. Now they only have, like, what? 11,857 left?

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Raka_Putra posted...

Oh man, they banned 7 cards. Now they only have, like, what? 11,857 left?

No one is complaining about a lack of cards, come on

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I feel like this is a good idea in theory but the fact this is a game where "white" and "black" cards are literally 40% of the cards available opens a slippery slope.

slippery slope arguments are the fucking worst

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ZeldaTPLink posted...

I feel like this is a good idea in theory but the fact this is a game where "white" and "black" cards are literally 40% of the cards available opens a slippery slope.

Hey, artifact decks are completely viable! There are dozens of us! DOZENS!

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The Mana Sword posted...

slippery slope arguments are the fucking worst

I mean I'm not trying to say we shouldn't fight rascism. But my question is, at which point do you decide that a card that says "destroy all black creatures" is rascist or not? Because that's like a sizable portion of the gameplay.

I feel like this needs more objectivity, that's my point.

this may shock you but people are capable of nuance

cleanse wasnt chosen because it says destroy all black creatures. it was removed due to the the implications of the text combined with the name. its not really that hard to find the line.

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The Mana Sword posted...

this may shock you but people are capable of nuance

Look, you don't need to be a dick. I'm not one of those people who complain every time someone tries to fight rascism. I'm raising what I feel is a logical concern. People are only capable of nuance if they raise the need to look for nuance in the first place.

I feel like the cards in this selection are all rascist enough, but I'm asking if they are just gonna restrict to this type of card or not.

I dont understand the concern. what do you think, theyre going to ban every card that has the word black or white in it? no, thats not going to happen.

and Im pretty sure cleanse is the only card in the game that has the text destroy all black creatures anyway.

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Mass Calcify destroys all nonwhite creatures, which is arguably worse in that respect. I don't think white and black being in-game terms is a problem by itself though, so it doesn't really matter.

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The Mana Sword posted...

this may shock you but people are capable of nuance

What a ridiculous argument. If people were capable of nuance than no one would have ever considered Cleanse to even be racist in the first place.

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"cleanse" has historically racist context

MTG exists in the real world and is written by re people, which means real world context also applies

turbopuns3 posted...

I really wonder though, if they didn't just multiply awareness of the issue by 1,000 by taking action on it in the first place

doesn't seem like an issue to me
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SeabassDebeste posted...

"cleanse" has historically racist context

MTG exists in the real world and is written by re people, which means real world context also applies

Real world context applies. But the context of the card within the game should also apply. Which if you do shows that it is not racist within that context. Applying this logic is a little thing known as.......

.......

.....WAIT FOR IT.....

....NUANCE.

So people who are saying, LOL HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF THIS THING CALLED NUANCE????? are tools.

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"just ignore real world context" is not nuance
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you know its possible for the card to have both a valid in-game mechanical explanation and still have offensive racial overtones at the same time right

the two arent mutually exclusive. so like, even if the the in-game context is fine its still worth removing


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redrocket posted...

Real world context applies. But the context of the card within the game should also apply. Which if you do shows that it is not racist within that context. Applying this logic is a little thing known as.......

.......

.....WAIT FOR IT.....

....NUANCE.

So people who are saying, LOL HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF THIS THING CALLED NUANCE????? are tools.

Someone here is certainly a tool.

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The Mana Sword posted...

the two arent mutually exclusive.

I never said they were. Im saying your claim, its not hard to find the line, is BS. The line is arbitrary.

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Its not like they banned playable cards because of a perverse incentive to get people to buy new cards. These cards are all pretty unplayable and fairly racist.

fair next

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SeabassDebeste posted...

"cleanse" has historically racist context

Its not ethnic cleanse

I suppose we should ban all cleaning products as well


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oh my god

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I agree with DeepsPraw and some of what redrocket said.

You can't say people are capable of finding nuance and therefore there is an easy line to draw. The line to people who are acutely sensitive to these things is going to be in a very different place. I would have never complained about Cleanse on my own, or batted an eye at it. Even with it being highlighted, I was only able to see what they're attempting to argue, and I still didn't agree with it. Wherever this mysterious line is, I don't feel Cleanse is across it.

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DeepsPraw posted...

Its not ethnic cleanse

I suppose we should ban all cleaning products as well

When you have the word "cleanse" with the power "destroy all x of one type", and you have cards with similar effects named "crusade" and "jihad", I think it's pretty obvious what the implication is
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Hbthebattle posted...

you have cards with similar effects named "crusade" and "jihad", I think it's pretty obvious what the implication is

that's just the Kuleshov effect. Of course you're going to draw implications when it's placed next to more egregious cards and you're explicitly told to look for racial biases.

It's just typical fantasy "light versus dark", "preists versus demons" stuff. Cleanse does not have the same intent as Invoke Prejudice

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DeepsPraw posted...

that's just the Kuleshov effect. Of course you're going to draw implications when it's placed next to more egregious cards and you're explicitly told to look for racial biases.

It's just typical fantasy "light versus dark", "preists versus demons" stuff. Cleanse does not have the same intent as Invoke Prejudice

Are you honestly acting like no one is going to look funny at Cleanse: Destroy all black creatures without being prompted
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Hbthebattle posted...

Are you honestly acting like no one is going to look funny at Cleanse: Destroy all black creatures without being prompted

I just said 3 posts earlier that I didn't.

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Hbthebattle posted...

Are you honestly acting like no one is going to look funny at Cleanse: Destroy all black creatures without being prompted

Before this week, the only people looking at 25 year old Magic cards are Magic fans, and they're going to know what those words mean in the context of the game.

Could a random person draw the wrong conclusion? Sure. Is that a reason to ban the card from tournament play? I don't think so

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I see all these cards and I don't understand where the problem is. Guess this is an American thing or something. I mean you do know this is fantasy game with fantastic characters and all these aren't real right?

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azuarc posted...

I just said 3 posts earlier that I didn't.

You didnt. That doesnt mean that others wouldnt notice something was off immediately
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Safer_777 posted...

Guess this is an American thing or something.

Other than the gypsy card, yes. But it's also a game produced by an American company.

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DeepsPraw posted...

Before this week, the only people looking at 25 year old Magic cards are Magic fans, and they're going to know what those words mean in the context of the game.

Could a random person draw the wrong conclusion? Sure. Is that a reason to ban the card from tournament play? I don't think so

Ok, so youve switched your argument from Its not racist to It doesnt matter if its racist since no one is looking
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Hbthebattle posted...

You didnt. That doesnt mean that others wouldnt notice something was off immediately

azuarc posted...

I would have never complained about Cleanse on my own, or batted an eye at it. Even with it being highlighted, I was only able to see what they're attempting to argue, and I still didn't agree with it.

And as DeepsPraw points out, nobody who has played Magic across the almost 30 years its existed would see anything about white and black creatures as anything other than a part of the game's lexicon. Only someone stumbling into Magic anew would be bothered. (Or someone looking for reasons to be offended.)

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azuarc posted...

Only someone stumbling into Magic anew would be bothered.

Because those don't exist, apparently
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Hbthebattle posted...

Because those don't exist, apparently

They wouldn't be playing cards from over 20 years ago, most of which I'm guessing haven't been reprinted any time recently.

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azuarc posted...

They wouldn't be playing cards from over 20 years ago, most of which I'm guessing haven't been reprinted any time recently.

If no one was actually using the cards, what is the issue with recognizing that they may have made things with some unfortunate implications in the past? Why make a fuss about their removal if no one was using them. (Unless you're just looking for reasons to get offended and whine about "SJW"s)
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