Board 8 > So uh why is Gen 2 'so good'?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I really don't get the hype, the pacing is pretty garbage and I'm really not a fan of how they handle the new Pokemon.

Like adding time mechanics, held items and breeding is cool as the franchise needed them in the long run. Plus fixing a lot of RBY's issues is nice, but I'm really not having fun with it the same way I have all the other games.

---

it's probably the weakest in the series, but the kanto segment is so amazing that it really makes it feel better than it is

by that I mean the concept of revisiting kanto feels amazing, the actual kanto exploration is kinda dullsville

HG/SS are p good though

---

Yeah I enjoyed HG decently. The pacing was a little better and they fixed a lot of issues with the Pokemon. I just don't understand their mentality with a lot of these mechanics.

Like I was originally going to use Donphan on my team, but the combination of Phanpy being a low encounter rate exclusive to the morning that also flees super easily made me give up on it. Like I'm also using Heracross and Bellossom, both of which are nearly impossible without guides.

---

Can only speak for myself, but...

• Comparatively more focus on player agency with the freedom you get after Ecruteak. Makes it feel more like you're getting to define the terms of your own adventure.
• Completely optional areas and different events happening on different days that encourage you to go back to places you've been and check in or explore further with new HMs
• Best rival in the series
• Johto is just a really cool region in my opinion. The layout is clever, most towns are interesting, and the lore is a little above what we normally get
• The evil team is the biggest sideshow of any one in the series. That may sound like a bad thing to a lot of fans but I appreciate how their section of the narrative never really feels like it's getting too much in the way of the greater Pokemon journey. They're just the right amount of involved.
• The Kanto revisit is a lot of fun even if it's not particularly expansive. Seeing how the region has changed and so forth is really enjoyable.
• I actually like how a lot of the new Pokemon are post-game locked. Makes it feel like a reward.

Actually, that last note is a decent summation of why I like them. Everything you accomplish in GSC feels rewarding. You have to work for and earn it all for the most part. Most other mainline Pokemon games feel like pleasant, casual escapism that kind of encourage you to just progress along a set path to the end without worrying much about stopping to appreciate the journey itself. And there's a place for that; I'm not knocking it. I quite like the first five generations and... certain aspects of the sixth. But Johto is the region I always end up getting really invested and sucked into.

---

NBIceman posted...

Can only speak for myself, but...

* Comparatively more focus on player agency with the freedom you get after Ecruteak. Makes it feel more like you're getting to define the terms of your own adventure.
* Completely optional areas and different events happening on different days that encourage you to go back to places you've been and check in or explore further with new HMs
* Best rival in the series
* Johto is just a really cool region in my opinion. The layout is clever, most towns are interesting, and the lore is a little above what we normally get
* The evil team is the biggest sideshow of any one in the series. That may sound like a bad thing to a lot of fans but I appreciate how their section of the narrative never really feels like it's getting too much in the way of the greater Pokemon journey. They're just the right amount of involved.
* The Kanto revisit is a lot of fun even if it's not particularly expansive. Seeing how the region has changed and so forth is really enjoyable.
* I actually like how a lot of the new Pokemon are post-game locked. Makes it feel like a reward.
Actually, that last note is a decent summation of why I like them. Everything you accomplish in GSC feels rewarding. You have to work for and earn it all for the most part. Most other mainline Pokemon games feel like pleasant, casual escapism that kind of encourage you to just progress along a set path to the end without worrying much about stopping to appreciate the journey itself. And there's a place for that; I'm not knocking it. I quite like the first five generations and... certain aspects of the sixth. But Johto is the region I always end up getting really invested and sucked into.

For someone whos never played Gen 2 before, which version would you recommend?


---

Iceman really summed up a lot of what I loved in Gen 2.

Also, Pokemon found a hidden strength in the opportunity to evolve its prior regions and develop them further over time, and sadly they never really stuck with that sort of winning formula. The one-and-done approach became so formulaic that each generation became successively more forgettable as they began to blend with one another. 2 stands out because it gave equal time to Kanto and Johto.

---

Okay I can definitely get that. I do love the lore of the Johto games and can see how this sort of has an Animal Crossing vibe to it, since it helps connect with the real world, even if that doesn't appeal to me personally.

I think I'd be less upset about the postgame mons if they had more options for the main game.

I very much wanted to use Houndoom and Octillery and when I realized I couldn't, I sort of saw how few options there are. Most of them are either babies, have no evolutions and/or bad stats or are trade evolutions.

---

redrocket posted...

For someone whos never played Gen 2 before, which version would you recommend?

HeartGold/SoulSilver if you're fine with a remake instead of insisting on the original GBC games.

Otherwise it has to be Crystal.

Yeah, I suppose I'm lucky in that I just really like a lot of the new Gen 2 Pokemon that you do get while still in Johto, so I'm more forgiving of some of them being Kantolocked. I think that's a perfectly valid complaint, though, especially with how Pokemon games generally work.

Reg posted...

HeartGold/SoulSilver if you're fine with a remake instead of insisting on the original GBC games.

Otherwise it has to be Crystal.

Yeah, this is 100% correct. HG/SS is the best the Pokemon series has ever been, but there's a certain charm to playing the GBC originals too, so it's all personal preference at that point.

---

redrocket posted...

For someone whos never played Gen 2 before, which version would you recommend?

HG/SS, but Crystal if you really wanto to stick purely to Gen II.

I really wouldn't say Kanto was given equal time. Viridian Forest got burned down, Mt Moon got reduced to a room or two, Rock Tunnel is completely empty and there's just very little to do in the towns. I still think it's super cool but I also think it has the most impact when you're a kid who played Gen I and then got to Gen II and had their mind blown by that reveal after beating Lance which is indescribable.

I think Gen II's biggest strength is the new Pokmon; I think the Gen II dex is pretty comfortably the best one. Even weak Pokemon like Ledian just have neat designs in my opinion. It is a shame that they're all locked away in Kanto which creates ridiculous scenarios; Houndour and Slugma are introduced as new Fire Pokemon, yet are locked in Kanto, leaving you to Cyndaquil and Magmar in the base game as your only options. Crystal grants you Growlithe but you can only get a Fire Stone in...Kanto, which is also required to evolve Silver-exclusive Vulpix. Morty is a Ghost-type trainer who could've used Misdreavus, the new Ghost Pokemon, but why do that when he can have a Ghastly and 2 Haunters instead? Oh, you want to try the new Dark-type? Well, hope you like Umbreon, because we're gonna lock the rest of 'em up in Kanto! Crystal at the very least dumped Sneasel in the Ice Path. I can maybe understand keeping some new Pokemon in Kanto (like Larvitar) to keep that place exciting, but the majority of the choices in spread are pretty baffling.

---

while i don't like the kanto-locking of new pokemon, i DO dig that they made so many of them rare/awkward to find, because it made it feel like a much more organic evolution of the previous region, rather than "we never knew of these pokemon before, but now they're everywhere!"

2nd gen just rewards you so much for being willing to wander off the beaten path, and felt like it was just stuffed full of content for a game boy game in 2000.

---

Used to be a top 5 game of all time for me, not after replaying it last year. Jesus. The difficulty curve is stupid. Up through Clair is so easy, then it skyrockets at the Elite Four. And the fact that like, a good fourth or so of the new Pokemon are unobtainable until post-game is absurd.

---

i played through crystal 2 years ago and the game still rules

difficulty curve is fine, given that the game's never actually hard just like every other pokemon game ever

---

Comparatively more focus on player agency with the freedom you get after Ecruteak. Makes it feel more like you're getting to define the terms of your own adventure.
Completely optional areas and different events happening on different days that encourage you to go back to places you've been and check in or explore further with new HMs
Best rival in the series
Johto is just a really cool region in my opinion. The layout is clever, most towns are interesting, and the lore is a little above what we normally get
The evil team is the biggest sideshow of any one in the series. That may sound like a bad thing to a lot of fans but I appreciate how their section of the narrative never really feels like it's getting too much in the way of the greater Pokemon journey. They're just the right amount of involved.

I do like the rest of these though.

Also, I really like it graphically.

---

Gen 1 is still the best, but Gen 2 was quite good.

---

I can't imagine replaying the original GBC games since they are truly outdone by HG/SS in every single way except for the female trainer's design and the music. Not that the updated sounds are necessarily bad, but there's something incredible about how tracks like National Park sound.

I loved these games to death but it's a lot of nostalgia talking. I'll never forget the story of Iwata himself making it possible for Kanto to exist in G/S by freeing up space on the cartridge. I think that about says it with the game; I find it so inspired and so beautiful. It's a time when Pokemon was on the height of its popularity and simultaneously they were actually ambitious enough to make something unforgettable for the sake of the player. Johto itself could've done the job, but adding Kanto, seeing the passage of time, being able to fight all the gym leaders, and of course, the Kanto champion, are highlights for me not just in Pokemon, but in gaming in general. I remember everyone complaining about Lavender Town becoming "good" but to me it was the ultimate expression of the passage of time. The way they made me feel so much from visiting a town that I visited in another game was something I had never experienced in gaming.

I also feel like Johto has so many cool locations. Ecruteak, Ruins of Alph, Goldenrod City, the National Park with the bug-catching contest, returning to the very starting point of the game so you can surf to Kanto - there's a lot there that was exciting. I haven't played the game in forever, but I do remember the wild Pokemon being severely underleveled in Kanto which made it kind of annoying. I won't train that level 3 Houndour to level 50+ or whatever it is I am at by the time I reach Kanto, you know?

This is all through the lens of a nine year-old. I don't know what my reaction would've been like as an adult. But I replayed HG/SS this year and I thought it was a fantastic game, so I'll go ahead and assume the foundation for something wonderful also exists in GSC.

edit. I might as well add that knowing Kanto is also in the game kind of spoils the game a lot, though. I can't imagine doing without that twist.

"Did you know what you have just done!?
You took your first step on Kanto! "

---

NBIceMan already covered a lot of the reasons, but for me as a kid I adored the bug catching game, the mystery of the unown, and how large they really made the world feel. I must've played through the game at least ten times.

---

I played SS not too long ago and yea, it was really rough

I wanted to use lots of Johto pokemon but they were rarely available

the leveling is all kinds of fucked

the wild pokemon are super weak and the gym leaders are super strong.

---

It's definitely interesting hearing this mix of opinions. I always thought GSC was the definitive B8 favorite. But it seems a lot more split.

Which generation did you guys enjoy the most?

---

It has the best Pokemon.

Also with the return to the old region and the finale being a battle vs the previous player character, it was the perfect way to end a sequel.

---

BetrayedTangy posted...

It's definitely interesting hearing this mix of opinions. I always thought GSC was the definitive B8 favorite. But it seems a lot more split.

Which generation did you guys enjoy the most?

HGSS > BW2 > GSC > BW > DPP > ORAS > RSE > FRLG > RBY > XY

---

Yeah, I think the difficulty curve in GSC is fine. You'll be underleveled when you get to the E4, but they're pretty weak so you'll probably make it through just fine. Only the Champion might give you trouble if you don't have an ice move.

It becomes a lot more problematic in HGSS when the levels of Johto trainers aren't increased but the difficulty has gone up because you have to contend with natures and abilities and most importantly, the physical/special split. You haven't known true despair until you've faced a (post-) Gen IV Gyarados without an Electric Type, let me tell ya. And while Kanto does level up significantly, they level up the Kanto Champion as well, which will result in you being underleveled when you face him.


---

natures and abilities and evs and ivs and the split are mostly for the player's advantage. only expert trainers take advantage of them at all, and even then not very effectively

---

I think context is also important here.

It feels like such a big leap from Gen I and bonafide sequel that few gens ever really recapture. Even Gen 3 came with concessions like no night/day cycle despite going from GBC to GBA. It seems like the series has become stagnant and no longer one-upping itself in content, which Gen 2 absolutely did.

---

I tried Silver recently and bailed at the eighth gym because I had no shot and there was nowhere good to grind

I want all the time I sank into Card Flip back

---

I've always thought GS was the worst one largely saved by its last two boss battles. I don't like Johto as a region that much. Kanto is a great idea though in general even though it ended up being so empty.

---

tbh I thought the Kanto revisit was pretty dull - there was no sense of progression, it was just a low-level steamroll after beating the Elite Four

Honestly I don't remember too much else about the game except liking the day/night cycle. Pokemon games mostly blend together for me. I should try HG/SS sometime.
---

gsc definitely has the worst region and the worst mons. wasnt a fan of the day/night cycle either. also the empty kanto wasnt very enjoyable (great idea though). and it introduced the wandering legendaries augh. also pointless baby mons augh.

---

NFUN posted...

natures and abilities and evs and ivs and the split are mostly for the player's advantage. only expert trainers take advantage of them at all, and even then not very effectively

Sure, but take that Gyarados for example (used by Lance). It has Intimidate, so if you're starting with a physical attacker, you're already out. It's got a decently high Sp Def, but also a good amount of resistances due to its typing, especially if you don't have an Electric type (move). So if you're switching or just trying to whittle it down, it can use Dragon Dance to boost it stats AND it has Waterfall, an 80 power Physical water move running off of its already sky-high attack.

Fighting a Gyarados is much easier pre Gen IV.

---

For me, mystery gift and room decoration played a big part in loving this gen. I also think it has some of the best music in the series (made even better by the remakes). Day night and days of the week gave me things to look forward to as a kid.

---

RyoCaliente posted...

Sure, but take that Gyarados for example (used by Lance). It has Intimidate, so if you're starting with a physical attacker, you're already out. It's got a decently high Sp Def, but also a good amount of resistances due to its typing, especially if you don't have an Electric type (move). So if you're switching or just trying to whittle it down, it can use Dragon Dance to boost it stats AND it has Waterfall, an 80 power Physical water move running off of its already sky-high attack.

Fighting a Gyarados is much easier pre Gen IV.

I mean yeah you're right, but I think difficulty is something Pokemon kinda needs. Gens 1 and 2 are heavily reliant on just type/stat matchups and once you figure that out the games become a cakewalk.

Gens 3-5 however gradually added on more ways to strategize and different ways to train your Pokemon.

Using your Gyarados example, you don't need an Electric type attack. There's a bunch of different abilities that counter stat changes, you can always use status effects, Sturdy/Endeavor combo, activating Sunny Day to weaken Waterfall, there's stalling it out etc.

---

Thinking about it, for me it shares some similarity to animal crossing new horizons. At the time it was big so the interactive experience with people such as mystery gift was very nice, and theres a lot of charm that makes the world feel a bit more lively, seeing youngster Joey's rattata grow up, each kimono girl having a name, memories with random villagers like cooltrainer gavin or picnicker Gina.

---

One last note, I've considered and said Gen 2 was one of the three best Gens, but I dont feel/ dont think I've ever said the gen 2 games were the best games.

---

This is gonna be a super controversial list get ready

5 > 2 > 8 > 1 > 6 > 3 > 7 > 4

---

I liked the colors

---

But to elaborate, what I liked about it was how it integrated new ideas such as items and friendship, competitions (Bug Catching contest was cool), put in Pokemon from last gen but didn't overutilize some of them like RBY did, such as sprinkling in underutilized ones like Gastly, Bellsprout, Slowpoke early. Has the best champion theme. Makes you think about when to play it and trying to friend certain characters. The new pokes were pretty interesting design wise. Cool experience. Only thing I disliked was my save battery ran out pretty quickly

Only second to Unova which just felt like a brand new journey to me and recaptured the magic of the older games, not to mention a pretty enticing plot.

---

LiquidOshawott posted...

This is gonna be a super controversial list get ready

5 > 2 > 8 > 1 > 6 > 3 > 7 > 4

That's not too controversial if you take an overall poll from the Pokemon fanbase, maybe 8 is too high

---

considering i would put 4 first and 5 near-last i beg to differ

---

You're just playing the games in the wrong order.

GSC was by far the best pokemon game relative to the time of release- I think that's why it's so beloved

GSC added nearly every quality of life feature that's been taken for granted in subsequent generations. breeding is probably the biggest one. balance, exp sharing, happiness, sp atk/def split, etc

it brought the game from black and white to color

for better or for worse, the formula hasn't changed significantly since then. i played sun/moon, and the only notable enhancements were 1) the separation of attack type and attack stat and 2) the quality-of-life fixes for HMs and TMs (this one is a big deal)

So, given that you've been playing the later games in the series, which have only made the tiniest and most incremental of changes for 20 years, of course GSC isn't going to seem amazing.

You're basically comparing FFX to FFX HD Remaster, and wondering what the big deal about FFX was

the one thing i can say about the GBC games is that they ran more quickly. combat is sluggish in newer titles for some reason. i also think ruby/sapphire/emerald was a step back for the series in a few regards, which makes GSC feel better in comparison

---

banananor posted...

the one thing i can say about the GBC games is that they ran more quickly. combat is sluggish in newer titles for some reason. i also think ruby/sapphire/emerald was a step back for the series in a few regards, which makes GSC feel better in comparison

yeah this is a big reason why i still love coming back to 1st/2nd gen games from time to time, they're such a breeze to blow through casually


---

LiquidOshawott posted...

This is gonna be a super controversial list get ready

5 > 2 > 8 > 1 > 6 > 3 > 7 > 4

The only controversial thing about this list is that 4, a generation that had HGSS (the only Pokemon games to make it into the last contest!) as lowest. I haven't played SS or SM but leaving those out I would probably only swap 3 and 4.

---

I was thinking more region, Sinnoh is just so damn sluggish to go through

Although I heard Platinum made it quite a bit better, hm.

---

A Sinnoh remake without HMs would almost make up for all the things from Platinum that wouldn't make it in the game.

---

banananor posted...

GSC was by far the best pokemon game relative to the time of release- I think that's why it's so beloved

I think this hits the nail.

Also, my favorite was Gen 5. I feel like it's the peak of 2D Pokemon. Since the transition to 3D, each gen has its own set of weaknesses.

But the biggest problem about the Pokemon games is that they don't build up on past features and keep trying to invent the wheel.


---

Gen 5 was the peak of Pokemon period. The series has been on a downward slide since then.

---

Yes, Black/White were the last great Pokemon games

---

Gen 2 isnt that good. Its just a LOT of game. An entire Kanto postgame makes sure of that.

pretty objectively the gen 4 remakes are superior.

metaIslug posted...

I don't get when people put the remakes in the gen time period they came out in. Obviously the remakes are not original games, so HGSS is either a gen 2 game, or half of a gen 4 game, or it's not part of gens at all

Because the remakes are basically copy-pasted versions of the games in the gen they came out during with a feature or two added. HGSS isn't considered a Gen 2 game because it has Gen 4's gameplay features. FR/LG aren't considered Gen 1 games because they have Gen 3's gameplay features. The gens aren't just defined by the region the game takes place in.

HGSS is basically Johto pasted over DPP's skeleton.

---