Board 8 > transience's top 100 games -- please insert disc 2.

(+) Yeah! (+)

The idea of people ranking Tetris among the best games of all time is just mystifying to me. To me it's a perfectly fine game that I might play once in a while, but definitely not something I love. I can kind of admire the elegant simplicity, but it's just a little too simple for my taste - at least for it to be something that makes my list of top games.

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6.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBksh8tC6Wg

1992
SNES, GBA, others

Its all about that job system. FF5 doesnt have the most memorable characters or the most interesting story, but theyre fine and the job system carries this game to the highest of heights.

FF5s job system is really flexible because the games design gives you lots of options, especially bosses. For example, the Dragon Pod boss has lots of adds that can be annoying with the wrong setup. But hes a piece of cake if you use Monks kick or the Titan summon since it wipes out the AOEs in one hit. Or, if you want to have fun, Berserkers death sickle weapon can one-shot him, or Blue Mages death claw spell will take him to critical hp, or Geomancers twister attack, or some of the Chemist mixes, etc. Just about every boss has some kind of trick that can be exploited by specific classes.

Then theres the four job fiesta, a super fun way to play FF5. Restricting your use of classes makes you dig into their specialized abilities and FF5 offers a lot. The different permutations gives this game an absolute ton of replay value. Ive apparently beaten this game 37 times since 2012, which is incredibly excessive and no one should do that but I love messing around with that stupid job system.

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Kaxon posted...

The idea of people ranking Tetris among the best games of all time is just mystifying to me. To me it's a perfectly fine game that I might play once in a while, but definitely not something I love. I can kind of admire the elegant simplicity, but it's just a little too simple for my taste - at least for it to be something that makes my list of top games.

there's been a lot of cool things done with tetris over the last couple years that keep it fresh. effect, puyo puyo and 99 all have unique qualities to them that add to the core of what makes tetris so appealing

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Do you watch the Tetris World Championship

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Kaxon posted...

The idea of people ranking Tetris among the best games of all time is just mystifying to me. To me it's a perfectly fine game that I might play once in a while, but definitely not something I love. I can kind of admire the elegant simplicity, but it's just a little too simple for my taste - at least for it to be something that makes my list of top games.

If you look at a bunch of his games in his top 50, simplicity doesnt seem like a big anti-factor for him placing a game high

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Aww yeah, best FF

Ive only done the Four Job Fiesta once, but when I did I think I had literally a bottom 10 possible party (Thief/Berserker/Geomancer/Dragoon)

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I watch some Tetris here and there, yeah. I watched the final four live this year but I usually just catch a replay here and there when I'm really bored.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Aww yeah, best FF

Ive only done the Four Job Fiesta once, but when I did I think I had literally a bottom 10 possible party (Thief/Berserker/Geomancer/Dragoon)

my first was similar (Monk/Berserker/Geomancer/Dancer) and was probably the hardest one I've done outside of the madness that was quadzerker. there are ~10 classes that, if you get one, you're honestly good for the game. try rolling again this year!

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Oh, did I miss DQ ranking?

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Kaxon posted...

The idea of people ranking Tetris among the best games of all time is just mystifying to me. To me it's a perfectly fine game that I might play once in a while, but definitely not something I love. I can kind of admire the elegant simplicity, but it's just a little too simple for my taste - at least for it to be something that makes my list of top games.

Tetris to me would be the baseline for "all-time great" games if I were to make a list. It's pretty much an objectively perfect video game, so anything above it would have to be transcendently good. I think I've played maybe 25 or 30 games at that level.

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Did you actually finish with four berserkers? I know Not Dave did, but I think he had to fight Ex Death thousands of times.

(Unless I'm confused and it was a solo berserker challenge? Maybe that was it...)

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I think Not Dave's run was solo Beserker.
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yeah, on level 74. it was a #upgrade run so I started with four Samurai and was able to learn equip Katana which helped. I also didn't need to grind to heaven to beat the Sandworm (though I did for Neo Exdeath)


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and yeah ND's run is a crazy solo zerker run that isn't even human. it's not tool assisted but it may as well be.

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5.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec-GGj376TM

2004
GBA

Zero Mission is the most playable metroidvania in the world, and maybe most playable game period. Its just so easy to pick up and play, and even the advanced skills are relatively simple. Just moving and jumping in Zero Mission is about as good as any game out there. You can get Samus to do exactly what you want with just a handful of practice.

Theres lots of alternate paths that encourage replay value too. You can get all the items, skip half of the games critical items without too much trouble, do bosses out of order or go for a low% run. Speed running is awesome with Zero Mission because you dont need to practice frame perfect skills for 3 months in order to be good. You can get good at this game in a really short amount of time because the movement is so straightforward and the game encourages experimentation.

I take a weird amount of joy in just executing a Zero Mission room the perfect way. The movement feels that good. Its the speedrunner in me, but this is the one game that controls well enough for someone like me to get on that level. I lost the any% record like 8 years ago and dont play it anywhere close to fast enough to compete in that space anymore but I still like just nailing a room. Thats a big part of why I love this game so much.

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I can't remember if you've mentioned this, but do you still speedrun any games?
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Zero Missions heavier gravity and physics work so well with the tight level structure. Like, its one of a handful of examples of such good game feel. I think Super Metroid is better overall, but only after you understand what it demands. ZM is so much more intuitive, and thats something I always give it over SM.

nah, not since the scene exploded and everyone started playing games like 15 hours a day. I can't compete with that for a number of reasons. I would never have any interest in streaming attempts or just getting that deep in with the speedrunning community.

but just you wait, I'll be a footnote in a summoning salt video one day!

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transience posted...

but just you wait, I'll be a footnote in a summoning salt video one day!

That would be cool. I've always wished I could hold the world record for something, even for a short time, but like you said, speedrunning is so absurdly competitive nowadays that it's just impossible unless you commit basically your whole life to it for a while. For any reasonably popular game it's really only the domain of the completely mad at this point.

As an old speedrunning guy I've always thought it would be cool to get mentioned in a Summoning Salt video though, just as part of the history leading up to the crazy shit people do now. The only really notable thing is that I discovered an important technique in Metroid Prime and was part of the early scene there, so it's possible my name could come up but I didn't actually do any serious runs of the game myself.

I'm a footnote in a summoning salt video! For the Mario kart Wii ultra glitches. Beginning of the Coconut Mall section. Wish I had more time these days to do more speed running.

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I remember that well! we were part of that same m2k2 community.

I did get a sort of unmentioned mention in a SS video once - I was part of the small group that tried to determine if hotarubi's super metroid any% run was legit. I'll never forget that internet fight.

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Having been part of m2k2 is so weird, I'm so completely disconnected from the metroid prime community at this point but they're still kind of standing partly on my shoulders and probably aren't even aware

I think I remember you mentioning that before. Was that the one where the runner saved the animals and still got a crazy good time (at the time)?
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I actually mailed a VHS tape to nate (m2k2/speed demos archive admin) so he could transcode it and post it to SDA. then he sold my DVD on m2k2's online store which I of course bought because who wouldn't do that? I really enjoyed those 15 minutes.

Team Rocket Elite posted...

I think I remember you mentioning that before. Was that the one where the runner saved the animals and still got a crazy good time (at the time)?

yeah. he took it from :36 to :32 and saved the animals.

there was also this one room where there was some weird video artifacting that made some people think it was a fake. it was the speed running equivalent of Mario vs. Crono.

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4.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsIBLOx12KU

1994
SNES

You could talk for a long time about Super Metroids strengths, how it was a genre changer for all sorts of reasons and how its one of the most influential games of all time. That all is obviously true.

What I found interesting when I played it for the 57th or whatever time last month is how truly weak you are in the early going. Samus straight up sucks. Your beam is pathetic and you cant take a lot of damage. Super Metroid doesnt really get truly fun until you get some beam upgrades and get the high jump.

Lets talk about that jump. Super Metroid has one of the great jumps in video games because you can cover so much ground in one leap and theres so much you can do with it. The physics are such that you can make it like 3-4 screens in a single jump once you get the speed booster and high jump, and I havent even mentioned things like the worlds best wall jump. Its the best around because of the floatiness of Samuss jump and the feeling of freedom that it gives you.

Super Metroids critical path feels more like a suggestion than anything. This game was made before the internet existed and everything had to be rigorously playtested. Theres no wall too high and no jump too far once you get good at this game. Super Metroid has a gigantic skill curve just because of how many possibilities you have at any given moment. The people who are truly great at this game just leave me in awe. Im good enough to play through the game effortlessly, but not *that* good.

The reason Im not great at it are the controls. Samus flies like a dream but your hands struggle to get her to do what you want. The game has a run button that just feels unnecessary. A good quality of life hack would be a version of the game that just holds the run button down for you at all times. It would help with trying to figure out how to run, jump and shoot with a single hand. You end up clawing your hand or remapping the controls in ways that dont feel natural. You can do it, and if you play this game a lot, you can get really damn good. But it could be less cumbersome.

There are so many ways to play this game. Theres the obvious any% and 100% routes, but theres also so many different kinds of hacks, from randomizers to rotation hacks to that weirdo LTTP/Super Metroid mashup. Super Metroids movement palette makes it so anything is possible. That above all else is why this game is an all-timer.

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the final three are a cut above.

100. hacknet
99. braid
98. batman: arkham asylum
97. super meat boy
96. portal
95. world of goo
94. hollow knight
93. super mario world
92. mega man maker
91. ace attorney 2
90. zelda: majora's mask
89. xenoblade chronicles x

88. monument valley
87. dragon warrior
86. mega man 3
85. castlevania: dawn of sorrow
84. nier: automata
83. we love katamari
82. zelda: link to the past
81. lethal league
80. half-minute hero 2
79. mike tyson's punch out!!
78. god of war 2
77. wolfenstein 2: the new colossus
76. super smash bros ultimate

75. binding of isaac
74. final fantasy 7
73. super hexagon
72. crystalis
71. suikoden
70. ace attorney 5
69. etrian odyssey 5
68. dragon warrior monsters 2
67. crypt of the necrodancer
66. dragon quest 3
65. final fantasy 4
64. actraiser
63. shadow hearts 2
62. persona 4 golden

61. metroid fusion
60. mega man 11
59. castle crashers
58. ace attorney investigations 2
57. street fighter 2
56. shadow complex
55. persona 5
54. zelda 1
53. holedown

52. final fantasy 9
51. final fantasy 6
50. castlevania: portrait of ruin
49. final fantasy 10
48. bleed
47. brothers: a tale of two sons
46. geometry wars 2
45. inside

44. slay the spire
43. super mario odyssey
42. street fighter 4
41. ace attorney 6
40. life is strange
39. tales of maj'eyal
38. etrian odyssey 4
37. dicey dungeons
36. the messenger

35. ace attorney
34. banished
33. tactics ogre: let us cling together
32. bleed 2
31. shadow hearts
30. dragon quest 11
29. ikaruga

28. persona 3 portable
27. the walking dead
26. outland
25. mega man 9
24. final fantasy
23. desert golfing
22. cave story
21. xenoblade

20. chrono trigger
19. f-zero gx
18. am2r
17. vvvvvv
16. final fantasy tactics
15. mega man 2
14. zelda: breath of the wild
13. spelunky
12. xenosaga 3

11. dragon warrior monsters
10. dragon quest 8
8. ace attorney 3
9. ori and the blind forest
7. tetris
6. final fantasy 5
5. metroid: zero mission
4. super metroid

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The thing that annoyed me about Super Metroid's controls (having played it after the GBA games) was switching between missiles/super missiles etc. I found it to be very awkward, and there were a few bosses where I felt like I couldn't do it fast enough.

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I legit only am sure of xenogears from here on out

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I think it says a lot if where I'm not a big Metroidvania fan at all (tried many) and Zero Mission is one of few I actually liked and beat.

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I personally think Zero Mission is better than Super Metroid! The game just plays so much better it's not even funny. Super gets a ton of credit for literally making the genre the way it is but at this point there are many games (Zero Mission included) that do what it did straight up better.

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Xiahou Shake posted...

I personally think Zero Mission is better than Super Metroid! The game just plays so much better it's not even funny. Super gets a ton of credit for literally making the genre the way it is but at this point there are many games (Zero Mission included) that do what it did straight up better.

To piggyback off this and my post. Super Metroid is not one of the Metroidvanias I've beaten. And it's part of why Shake says so.

And that I didnt even try Metroidvanias until I came to this board (after 2005) so I have no SNES/PS1 nostalgia or anything to them.

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Oh hey, I beat Super Metroid for the very first time in the last year. Good times.

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Zero Mission over Super Metroid for new players makes perfect sense. what Super Metroid brings that ZM doesn't is a stronger sense of atmosphere and a broader moveset. you can really fly in Super Metroid if you're good. you can also get bogged down in the controls if you're not. I get it both ways.

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man, I dont even know what 2 of the top 3 are anymore

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FF V's job system is awesome. The characters and the story are... okay. Some of the early dungeons are pretty annoying (ship graveyard, burning castle thing). I think one of the biggest reasons FF V doesn't do much for me is that the soundtrack is just bad. There are a few decent tracks (Battle on the Big Bridge people, don't kill me), but most of it is mediocre and some is really grating. It's kind of amazing that Uematsu phoned this in between the goodness of FF4 and one of the most amazing stretches of brilliance ever in FF6-9.

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oh boy

time to rush #3 out to avoid this one!

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ban kaxon

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FFV is probably my least favorite FF game I actually played to completion, but I've always thought its OST was really underrated! Great map themes, dungeon themes, and battle themes all around!

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Zero Mission and Super Metroid are so good. I'm not one of those people who plays them a million times but I respect the design of Super Metroid so damn much. I agree that Zero Mission is more accessible but I think Super Metroid feels like it has more depth. Also I like the atmosphere in SM more, it just really nails the feeling of total isolation on an alien planet. I think part of it might be being designed for a TV instead of a handheld. I appreciate the fact that Zero Mission changed things up by doing the zero suit sequence on the alien ship, but that section feels a little gimmicky to me, ultimately I think it's probably the weakest part of that game.

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3.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFl3zU56-e0

2015
PS4, PC, XB1, Switch

N++ has no level scrolling, no items, no powerups and only three inputs. Its also incredibly precise thanks to the floatiest jump around. It might seem surprising that an amazing platformer has such a floaty jump, but that jump has so much nuance to it since the jump arc is dependent on your characters momentum. Youd think thered be a limited amount of ways to do it, but every level offers new opportunities to experiment based on slopes, speed and obstacles.

Speaking of levels, there are over 4,000 in the base game of N++, not to mention the level creator if you somehow run out or just want to play something silly and user-made. Ive never come close to beating all the base levels and I love the hell out of this game. That endless content plus the simple inputs means that I can put this down, come back and not have missed a beat.

As you'd expect with a game like this, N++ is also hard as all hell. This game beats you the hell up but the movement is so sublime that the end result feels mega rewarding when you pull it off. This game can put me into a trance from the amount of focus you need to nail a particularly nasty level.

I come back to this game for that exhilarating feeling all the time and its always a new experience because the levels are always changing. N++ feels like a roguelike because of the seemingly infinite content, except for the catch that every single level is actually authored. This isn't some procedural generation where they went and made a few tweaks and pushed the game out - every level is legit. And its so goddamn good.


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super metroid is the all-time most influential game for my personal tastes and the sheer number of games directly inspired by it

but i'll be damned if zero mission isn't the game that i pick up every now an again and replay...several times, within the span of a week. i'd bet i've beaten mzm close to 50 times, many 100%. it's just so damn easy and enjoyable to play through.

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all of you ZM superfans should absolutely play AM2R

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i love pretty much every metroid game so i have no excuse for having not played it!

i just sort of fell off the video games wagon pretty strong throughout much of the 2010s, and i'm only recently getting back into things

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2.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iofYDsA2yqg

2018
PC, Switch, PS4, XB1

Celeste is ridiculously good. It does basic movement better than anything else around. Just the simple act of moving or maneuvering in mid air is a half step better than everything else on the market. You move just right, you jump just right. Theres lots of little quality of life hacks built into the game, like being able to jump a few frames after you walk off the edge of the platform or to ensure that you dont get stuck on the corner of a level, just to make the game feel that much better. Celeste is just better than other 2d movement games on a basic level. Its not just fair, its beyond fair. Its cheating on your behalf.

The other half of the equation, Celestes level design, is also extremely good. First of all, Celeste is pretty tough and thats a good thing because it forces you to master the controls. If the game ever gets too hard for you, theres built in cheats in the form of an excellently designed assist mode. Celeste goes out of its way to tell you that its okay to use these and to be proud of your death count, and it means it.

The theme of struggle ties gameplay and story together in a fairly powerful way. Celeste is a game about anxiety and overcoming struggle, both from a gameplay perspective and from the main characters perspective. Tying those two things together makes for a surprisingly powerful narrative. Very few people will say that Celeste has an amazing story on its own (unless they have crippling anxiety, of course) but when tied in to the struggles that the platforming offers, it works super well.

All of the window dressing in Celeste is great too. Celestes soundtrack is incredible and fits with the game so well. Each level has its own gameplay theme and almost all of them are great to play with. (The moving clouds in the hotel kinda suck, but otherwise, its all good.) The game does optional content right, with a main game thats hard but fair while also remixing stages and upping the difficulty to ludicrous levels for the most dedicated players. Celestes hardest content is among the hardest video game challenges Ive ever undertaken, and were probably the most rewarding I can think of when finally getting past them. Theyre also not for everyone, so Im glad that theyre sidelined off and clearly delineated as optional content for lunatics.

The cherry on top here are all the built in speed tricks that arent even hinted at in the main game. Theres the game that most people play and then the crazy hyper dashing that speed runners do (and people like me try to do and fail miserably). I think Celeste is the best speed game out there because this games skill ceiling is so incredibly high and the speed you can get to along with the games high difficulty is so thrilling to watch. Add in the music and the level design and this game is the GOAT platformer.

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Wow, this top 3! I did not expect this sort of shakeup since I last saw this list, but I love it! Celeste is one I still need to finish, super good, tho!

I'm generally not a huge fan of 2D platformers. They're not really my thing.

I liked Celeste a lot. It's quality.

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Celeste! #2 is super high. It is a really good game though, it might land in my top 10.

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Kaxon, did you ever go back and play Farewell? I know you did the C's so you've got the skills to do Farewell, and it's so so good for someone who's gotten to that skill level.

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I'm pretty surprised. Celeste is great but not goat great!

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I took a break in the middle of stage... 7 I think? In Celeste at one of the wall clinging parts. I loaded it back up a week ago and had completely lost the muscle memory to deal with those!

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