Poll of the Day > The White Settlement shooting shows why everyone needs to take combat training

(+) Yeah! (+)

Since American society is filled with so many spree killers who have access to deadly weapons which can kill you in the blink of an eye.

The first guy who gets shot Im sure is the one who died, when he gets shot a huge mist goes behind him and you can tell hes pretty much dead. When the guy pulled the gun on him though it looked like he instinctively reached for something maybe his own gun but unfortunately the guy had the bead on him.

The second guy who gets shot stands there and gets hit, probably due to shock.

I know that Krav Maga and other forms of combat training allow the human body to be trained to react to split second stimuli like that. Taking classes can save your life in case some random nutjob pulls a firearm suddenly, you cant afford to freeze up for even a half a second. As silly as it sounds doing a combat roll behind a pew at least gives you a chance at the shooter then has to aim instead of shooting a stationary target, and if you can throw off his shot to get to cover you could easily survive the encounter.

This is on my things to do within the next few years, either that or move to Canada.

lol omg

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Rewatching it, it looks like the guy was aiming at the second victim, but the first guy stood up while reaching for something(gun maybe?), took too long to draw his gun and drew the gunmans attention, he already had his gun pointed and loaded so he simply aimed it at first guy and killed him.

Second guy then at least seemed to flinch before getting shot and slightly moved out of the way out of the shot and is in critical condition now.

You can see he gets up at the end of the video think.

This is also a huge part of the good guys with guns narrative. Seemed like half the church had a weapon and none of them were combat trained.

The guy who ended up killing the gunman basically was fortunate he was so far away and had a favorable angle.

TerranceC posted...

Seemed like half the church had a weapon and none of them were combat trained.

That's something that should be addressed following the second ammendment. Restrict gun ownership to those who are trained to a basic degree to use weapons properly and put basic understanding of how guns work and proper, considerate handling of said weapons.

If everybody has a basic idea of what a weapon can do and bad/malicious practice then people can quickly identify suspicious behaviour without panicking over the sight of any weapon. They also have the means to identify sufficient cover in the event of a shooting.
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I would activate bullet time and disable the shooter nonlethally using magic missile

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As sad as it is to say, the first guy really should not be dead.

The gunman was not looking at him when his weapon was drawn, and he also had a pew in front of him. Had he simple ducked underneath the pew while drawing and readying his weapon so that he was ready to fire immediately out of cover, he couldve saved himself and likely taken out the other guy.

Although second guy probably wouldve gotten killed in that event.

Twitter gun nuts are having a field day about how we all need to be armed and good guys with guns ignoring this guy got killed.

You need 3-4 good guys with guns to kill one dude every time after he already kills several people?

Doesnt seem like the solution.

Mead posted...

I would activate bullet time and disable the shooter nonlethally using magic missile

Why is this your platform to be silly?

TerranceC posted...

Why is this your platform to be silly?

Its a social board and I have to follow my heart

combat roll

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If youve ever noticed military/police do their jobs, youd know that when in combat they make themselves smaller by getting into an exaggerated crouch, or dropping to a knee, this makes it much harder to shoot at them by simple laws of physics.

Keep moving, dont ever be stationary, look for cover, make yourself smaller, and if someone gets a bead on you get low.

This is basic academy stuff.

Is it always going to work? Hell no, is it better than standing there cowering or standing up drawing a weapon while a guy is one click away from ending you? Yeah, by a lot.

TerranceC posted...

Had he simple ducked underneath the pew while drawing and readying his weapon so that he was ready to fire immediately out of cover, he couldve saved himself and likely taken out the other guy.

I realize your whole point is that people should get training to deal with situations like this, but I think this is really one of those things where you don't know how you're going to react in the moment and it isn't fair to look at it with hindsight over the internet in safety and far from the action. Some people rush gunmen with their bare hands and other times trained security runs off as soon as they hear shots fired, it seems like a crap shoot.

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Mead posted...

Its a social board and I have to follow my heart

combat roll

You know what a Combat role is for?

Its literally for the exact scenario which happened, for close quarters combat where you have very little space or cover to work with.

Its still used in a lot of armed forces although its rarely practical due to most combat being super long range these days.

But for close quarters its much harder to shoot someone that low and small especially for someone untrained.

Dreaming_King posted...

I realize your whole point is that people should get training to deal with situations like this, but I think this is really one of those things where you don't know how you're going to react in the moment and it isn't fair to look at it with hindsight over the internet in safety and far from the action. Some people rush gunmen with their bare hands and other times trained security runs off as soon as they hear shots fired, it seems like a crap shoot.

Yeah well most of the gun nuts go to target ranges and shoot at things that dont shoot back and think they are combat ready.

Thats the whole point, its total bullshit.

In fact it seems that people are perhaps over confident in their own safety when they are armed and it causes other issues and unnecessary loss of life.

yeah, you can catch the bullets with your hands...
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

yeah, you can catch the bullets with your hands...

Thats the complete opposite of what you want to do, the first thing you want to do is get out of the way, something the average person is horribly unprepared to do.

Krazy_Kirby posted...

yeah, you can catch the bullets with your hands...

teeth

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Heres a police officer getting shot

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iNCsowxZWSI

notable

1: Instantaneous reaction to gun, moves out of the way.

2: Retreats and rolls to ground after he was initially shot.

And thats from pretty close range.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_BZkxLQ6zlk

This is from nearly point blank, and the officer could do very little about this, but he still managed to get low and then get over the barricade for cover. Still almost died.

The second video was pretty much impossible because not only was the guy super close he was shooting from cover while the officer had nothing, and he still managed to do enough right to save his life.

i have to poop.

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Saying that all Americans should be combat trained to help react to mass shooters is a bit like saying that all children should be keeping condoms in their backpack to help deal with child molesters - it is technically something that will decrease the damage done, but is still dodging the fundamental problem at hand.

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Dreaming_King posted...

I realize your whole point is that people should get training to deal with situations like this, but I think this is really one of those things where you don't know how you're going to react in the moment and it isn't fair to look at it with hindsight over the internet in safety and far from the action. Some people rush gunmen with their bare hands and other times trained security runs off as soon as they hear shots fired, it seems like a crap shoot.

The idea is that if you have enough training it takes over as your basic instinct and you just do it without realizing it. Also "trained security" is kind of a broad term, most security guards don't get a lot of training, hell most of them don't even know how to fire a gun.

That said, I don't think it is realistic to expect most civilians to get enough combat training where it would be even viable in a situation like this. The time and effort involved is just disproportionate to the probability the average person has of being in that kind of situation. The best thing to do is just train people to either (in order of preference):

1) Run away from the shooter to the nearest exit, using the mob mentality of "a shooter can't hit everyone who is running away".
2) Barricade yourself in a safe place.
3) Bum-rush the shooter and try to incapacitate them.

That is what most active-shooter training teaches and is pretty easy for a civilian to instinctively do. #3 is obviously a last resort as at that point you are pretty much out of other options.

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TerranceC posted...

If youve ever noticed military/police do their jobs, youd know that when in combat they make themselves smaller by getting into an exaggerated crouch, or dropping to a knee, this makes it much harder to shoot at them by simple laws of physics.

lol

if you're going to carry, then yes you should definitely train

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So can I do a regular roll to get away or does it have to specifically be a combat roll

do I have to yell combat roll! when I do it?

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darkknight109 posted...

Saying that all Americans should be combat trained to help react to mass shooters is a bit like saying that all children should be keeping condoms in their backpack to help deal with child molesters - it is technically something that will decrease the damage done, but is still dodging the fundamental problem at hand.

It's more like teaching children how to find escape routes quickly. It doesn't stop child molesters trying to do their thing but at least some children might get lucky and escape raping.

Your condom analogy makes no sense as STDs are the last thing on your mind when getting molested, that would be like giving people tissues so if they're in a shooting they can mop up blood spots on their suit jacket so the stain doesn't completely ruin it while they bleed out from a gun shot wound to the thigh.
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i pooped.

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WHY THE FUCK...

did I just read that whole mess in Robert Downey Jr.s voice playing Sherlock Holmes?

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If I was there I would have charged the shooter and saved everyone.
If I was alive in Germany in the 30's I would have assassinated Hitler and WW2 wouldn't have happened.

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https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2013/02/christopher-dorner-cornered-how-do-you-win-a-gunfight.html

If an officer misses those signs and is beaten to the draw, he or she must respond by drawing a weapon quickly and presenting a moving target. Moving while shooting forces the perpetrator to change position or at least retake aim. (Most criminals are terrible shots.) If the shooter is within arms reach, it may be better to lunge before drawing. Knocking an opponent off balance might just prevent a shot before the officer can unholster his or her own gun.

This is simple, even if you have a gun, a criminal will always draw his weapon before you, as the good guys dont draw their weapons to shoot for no reason.

BEING ON THE DEFENSIVE IN A GUN FIGHT SUCKS, and if you dont know how to make yourself moving target you will almost surely die.

TerranceC posted...

a criminal will always draw his weapon before you, as the good guys dont draw their weapons to shoot for no reason.

Thats not true at all, but okay.

darkknight109 posted...

Saying that all Americans should be combat trained to help react to mass shooters is a bit like saying that all children should be keeping condoms in their backpack to help deal with child molesters - it is technically something that will decrease the damage done, but is still dodging the fundamental problem at hand.

Literally any one of us can grt shot and killed by a spree shooter literally any day and you want to take the futilistic approach and surmise the underlying reason instead of just getting your ass ready in case someone tries to kill you someday.

Cacciato posted...

Thats not true at all, but okay.

Yes it is, but okay.

Unless we are talking about a burglary or something and not a public shooting, aiming a weapon at someone is illegal.

TerranceC posted...

Yes it is, but okay.

Unless we are talking about a burglary or something and not a public shooting, aiming a weapon at someone is illegal.

No, its not. Maybe go get some law enforcement training before you start saying stupid shit.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

It's more like teaching children how to find escape routes quickly. It doesn't stop child molesters trying to do their thing but at least some children might get lucky and escape raping.

I mean, I'd rather figure out how the child molesters are getting access to kids and stop that from happening, but if you'd rather do the escape route thing, you do you.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Your condom analogy makes no sense as STDs are the last thing on your mind when getting molested

Which was exactly my point. It's technically better than doing nothing, but not by much and only because you've done a shit job of actually addressing the real problem at hand.

TerranceC posted...

Literally any one of us can grt shot and killed by a spree shooter literally any day and you want to take the futilistic approach and surmise the underlying reason instead of just getting your ass ready in case someone tries to kill you someday.

I've been in martial arts for almost 30 years now. I'm about as prepped as a civilian can reasonably be without going to ridiculous extremes.

It still changes absolutely nothing regarding what I said. I don't *want* to use my martial arts. I don't *want* to be in a situation where I have to. That's why I'm saying you'll get far, far more bang for your buck by actually figuring out *why* there are so many spree shooters and determining how to stop them (hint: America has a grossly disproportionate number of them and there's a very good reason for that), rather than just telling people to start combat rolling when the bullets start flying.

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darkknight109 posted...

I mean, I'd rather figure out how the child molesters are getting access to kids and stop that from happening, but if you'd rather do the escape route thing, you do you.

Good luck curing the world of pedophilia and sociopathy any time soon, I care more about mitigating losses asap.

darkknight109 posted...

Which was exactly my point. It's technically better than doing nothing, but not by much and only because you've done a shit job of actually addressing the real problem at hand.

It doesn't address the problem at all. Condom or not, the issue is being molested which a condom does not stop. It's completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Combat training directly addresses the issue of combat, if combat training did not give an advantage then we would not train soldiers.

darkknight109 posted...

It still changes absolutely nothing regarding what I said. I don't *want* to use my martial arts. I don't *want* to be in a situation where I have to. That's why I'm saying you'll get far, far more bang for your buck by actually figuring out *why* there are so many spree shooters and determining how to stop them (hint: America has a grossly disproportionate number of them and there's a very good reason for that), rather than just telling people to start combat rolling when the bullets start flying.

You can find cover now, you can't fix America's social, mental and economic issues this decade.
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How do you solve the gun crisis? Moar gunz lol

Gotta love American logic

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If you T-pose they'll drop their weapon and surrender.

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Condom or not, the issue is being molested which a condom does not stop.

And combat roll or not, the issue is being shot at which a combat roll does not stop. Combat roll keeps you from getting killed, condom keeps you from getting an STD. The analogy's not perfect, but it works for illustrating how futile a bandaid solution this idea is.

Cacciato posted...

No, its not. Maybe go get some law enforcement training before you start saying stupid shit.

Im talking about a civilian. Keep up, good grief.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

Seriously what state do you know is it legal to point a firearm at someone before theyve done anything and they are not actively in your home or trespassing?

Until the gunman brandishes his weapon you cant just pull a gun on him preemptively, and after hes done so hes already got the drop on you.

Honestly the whole run, hide, fight mantra is way easier for people to remember in a crisis

and despite what you see on the news, we live in a very safe world compared to most of human history

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Did you watch the video? Literally no one ran, in fact no one even hid for cover until after the second shot.

It was this huge delayed reaction because everyone was just paralyzed with fear.

How do you think these spree killers sometimes kill 25-30 people anyway? Exactly for this reason.

The average person is unfit to act under a live shooter crisis due to lack of experience/knowledge

In the mall in Texas, the shooter killed I believe over 10 people, and was not shot by any of the armed civilians in the mall unlike this situation where an armed security had a bead on the gunman(it also helped that the gunman was someone naive to his surroundings)

The reason was because all the badasses with guns didnt know or bother to use them in a real combat situation.

Even trained police go from 90 percent accuracy to about 40 percent on the field, what do you think the layman is going to have?

Also notable, one of the only countries that has as many gunz as US is Switzerland which has no spree shooting issue, however most adult males in Switzerland are damn near military officer level with their weapons as high amount of military experience among men and also rifle and shooting training among teenagers for sport.

Americans shooting at tires in the woods acting like they are John Wu

TerranceC posted...

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

Seriously what state do you know is it legal to point a firearm at someone before theyve done anything and they are not actively in your home or trespassing?

Until the gunman brandishes his weapon you cant just pull a gun on him preemptively, and after hes done so hes already got the drop on you.

There was this case.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-detained-walking-missouri-walmart-armed-rifle-wearing/story?id=64870120

tl;dr Guy walked into a Wal-Mart with body armor and some holstered guns to do some shopping, being completely within his state law and Wal-Mart's own policy. The only problem is he did this a few days after that Wal-Mart mass shooting so people panicked and some guy with a concealed gun pulled it on him and held him at gun point until the cops came to arrest him. They charged him with making a terrorist threat and last month he plead guilty to some lesser crime. The guy who held him at gun point wasn't charged with anything.

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Dreaming_King posted...

There was this case.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-detained-walking-missouri-walmart-armed-rifle-wearing/story?id=64870120

tl;dr Guy walked into a Wal-Mart with body armor and some holstered guns to do some shopping, being completely within his state law and Wal-Mart's own policy. The only problem is he did this a few days after that Wal-Mart mass shooting so people panicked and some guy with a concealed gun pulled it on him and held him at gun point until the cops came to arrest him. They charged him with making a terrorist threat and last month he plead guilty to some lesser crime. The guy who held him at gun point wasn't charged with anything.

In that case, the gun was pulled on him because the person with the gun was suspicious of him and sought to prevent him from committing a crime, suspicion which was later determined to be reasonable. The central idea of the law quoted is not that you can never point a gun at anyone who isn't actively shooting people, it's that you can't point a gun at anyone without reasonable justification.

TerranceC posted...

most adult males in Switzerland are damn near military officer level with their weapons

What the fuck does that even mean?

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_AdjI_ posted...

The central idea of the law quoted is not that you can never point a gun at anyone who isn't actively shooting people, it's that you can't point a gun at anyone without reasonable justification.

I know that. it was a response to this.

TerranceC posted...

Seriously what state do you know is it legal to point a firearm at someone before theyve done anything and they are not actively in your home or trespassing?

Until the gunman brandishes his weapon you cant just pull a gun on him preemptively

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Dreaming_King posted...

I know that. it was a response to this.

Ah. Fair. Carry on.

_AdjI_ posted...

And combat roll or not, the issue is being shot at which a combat roll does not stop. Combat roll keeps you from getting killed, condom keeps you from getting an STD.

If people can shoot at me and I am not shot, I couldn't care less. If nobody is shooting at me and I get shot, I care a lot.

Dodging being shot is the primary issue, as long as I am not shot I am happy. Escaping a shooting is not equally as good as your rapist wrapping his dong lol

_AdjI_ posted...

The analogy's not perfect, but it works for illustrating how futile a bandaid solution this idea is.

It's not just a bandaid though. It's like taking an anti-venom after a snake bite because it's far more practical than making venomous snakes extinct before you venture outside. You'd rather not get bitten, but if it only ends up hurting you superficially, you can happily live on accepting that outside risk.

Dreaming_King posted...

tl;dr Guy walked into a Wal-Mart with body armor and some holstered guns to do some shopping, being completely within his state law and Wal-Mart's own policy. The only problem is he did this a few days after that Wal-Mart mass shooting so people panicked and some guy with a concealed gun pulled it on him and held him at gun point until the cops came to arrest him. They charged him with making a terrorist threat and last month he plead guilty to some lesser crime. The guy who held him at gun point wasn't charged with anything.

If people learned what is and is not a threat, perhaps they wouldn't overreact and we could avoid pointless conflict like this.
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