Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 255: A Holiday Present From Tulsi

(+) Yeah! (+)

Jakyl25 posted...

And yet

https://news.gallup.com/poll/269711/republican-satisfaction-healthcare-costs-surges.aspx

This is the most interesting 'partisan divide' graph I've ever seen. That's a ton of Republicans that have been gaslighted into being okay with being put into lifelong debt over a health scare.

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One thing I have yet to see anybody answer about M4A is how many people its going to put out of work. There are around 900,000 people who work for health insurance companies alone, and thats not counting the people who work in smaller, private practice doctors offices that will also lose their jobs under M4A.

Full disclosure, I work for one of the major health insurers (so Im automatically evil to a bunch of you for stating that if history has told me anything). If I felt the system would actually work Id be fine with my wife and I losing everything weve worked for, but I just dont see it based on what I know about the healthcare system in this country.

Its broken, and broken badly, theres no denying that. I just cant see M4A as the answer right now. Long term maybe with some tweaks, but not right now, in its current form.

Thats something I really dont hear in these discussions about healthcare. Even with the people the government would have to hire for the administrative work, youre still putting an enormous amount of people out of work. The area I live in alone would lose almost 8,000-10,000 jobs between all of the insurers around here, and there arent enough openings elsewhere for more than a small portion of then to find other work.

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all the former insurance people will be retrained for our booming coal industry
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RaidenGarai posted...

One thing I have yet to see anybody answer about M4A is how many people its going to put out of work. There are around 900,000 people who work for health insurance companies alone, and thats not counting the people who work in smaller, private practice doctors offices that will also lose their jobs under M4A.

Full disclosure, I work for one of the major health insurers (so Im automatically evil to a bunch of you for stating that if history has told me anything). If I felt the system would actually work Id be fine with my wife and I losing everything weve worked for, but I just dont see it based on what I know about the healthcare system in this country.

Its broken, and broken badly, theres no denying that. I just cant see M4A as the answer right now. Long term maybe with some tweaks, but not right now, in its current form.

Thats something I really dont hear in these discussions about healthcare. Even with the people the government would have to hire for the administrative work, youre still putting an enormous amount of people out of work. The area I live in alone would lose almost 8,000-10,000 jobs between all of the insurers around here, and there arent enough openings elsewhere for more than a small portion of then to find other work.

I don't have the specifics on this, and I won't assume you are evil or anything. However what the insurance industry has done to this country through lobbying is heinous, and it needs to be undone.

A couple of things that help with M4A is it wouldn't be rolled out right away even once it is passed, but over four years, which should give a bit of time to ease people into new jobs with the government or with other companies. Also insurance would not be going away entirely, it would just be elective. I imagine that'd still mean down sizing by 90% though. I have thought about this before and it is something that needs to be answered, but I am not overly concerned by it given the transition time.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I don't have the specifics on this, and I won't assume you are evil or anything. However what the insurance industry has done to this country through lobbying is heinous, and it needs to be undone.

A couple of things that help with M4A is it wouldn't be rolled out right away even once it is passed, but over four years, which should give a bit of time to ease people into new jobs with the government or with other companies. Also insurance would not be going away entirely, it would just be elective. I imagine that'd still mean down sizing by 90% though. I have thought about this before and it is something that needs to be answered, but I am not overly concerned by it given the transition time.

Thaks for being rational about it. You have no idea how many people with progressive leanings have freaked out on me because of the place that offered me the best job out of college (and gives me a ton of schedule flexibility for my family, which we need and can't get from my wifes employer). I'm 36 now, and lost a friend I've hung out with regularly since high school because he was so pissed that I refused to "do the right thing" and quit my job.

I'll never argue that insurance companies don't have a mountain of problems. Hell, my wife never had real health insurance until we got married (this was prior to the ACA), because she has a rare genetic disorder that instantly stamped her with the "Pre-existing Condition" label whenever they tried to get her coverage. She has less claims and spends less on her healthcare than I do though, but they never even bothered to look at her history. Pre-existing conditions are and always will be absolute bullshit, and I should probably stop now before I rant about those for another hour.

The four year window doesn't really help put my mind at ease, since there are still going to be way too many people who are unemployed and not enough jobs to cover them. Even if you go slowly on that trasition, there are far more people looking for work than there are available jobs, and this doesn't include the people who work for the smaller doctors offices. I have no idea how many those could be, but most of them will be out of work as well. Based on what I've seen from the current structure, my belief is that M4A would end up with the larger medical groups, and nothing else. You'd have Hospitals, and the larger regional ones, but no more family owned or private practices (since they tend to lose money seeing Medicare patients due to the low reimbursement rates, and rely on private insurers and their higher reimbursements to offset those losses).

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Some of that is due to administrative cost with the go around for insurance. I am surely not as well versed as you, but I know my doctor has spent hours on paperwork before to make sure things can be covered. They rely on higher reimbursements but to get those reimbursements often take a lot of manpower.

I think these are things that need to be addressed, but I don't think the answer is 'not M4A.' I think voices like yours can be important in making sure the final bill makes sense. But like someone said before it seems less to be a problem with M4A and more of a problem with M4A poorly implemented. Let's implement it well. Support M4A but stress that these things have to be a part of it. That's what I say.

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I too used to work at a major health insurer in the region, in their pricing department. It's not evil work, it's absolutely crucial in order to make any sense at all out of anything.

I don't have all the answers. But letting insurers do what they think is best is not a solution I can get behind. Frankly, I think that a lot of the jobs around the healthcare industry should go away. PBM's, for example, are vultures that don't really serve much purpose besides making money for somebody not involved in any way with the actual care of the patient.

Edit - I recognize that this is probably somewhat naive, and if my past experience work with retirement planning teaches me anything it's that we'll probably have more jobs that are somewhat "unnecessary" under a government solution. I could support a heavily regulated but still "private" industry, but my concern there is that those regulations could be more easily peeled back than M4A could. Look at the banking industry post-recession. Regulations put into place, but not hard to remove them.

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Despite what some may think, I don't bite anyone who disagrees with me or shows a different opinion. Someone who works in an insurance company being concerned about their future just makes sense. Raiden is a human too, his family's future matters too. Just as much as the person who needs to be able to afford their medical bills without going into debt or worse staving off care and having a bad outcome. To me it all begins with M4A as the groundwork, then we can fill in what M4A means in terms of the details and how it impacts regular folks.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

To me it all begins with M4A as the groundwork, then we can fill in what M4A means in terms of the details and how it impacts regular folks.

Yeah, the most important part is making a societal commitment to not let people die because healthcare is too expensive. There's no reason for people in the richest country in the world to not be able to afford seeing a doctor.

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A friend of mine works at one of the local private practices, and every time she does a bone density scan (and many, many others) the clinic loses money. With the government having a Monopoly, those offices have no chance to stay in business at the current reimbursement structure.

I think well see a single payer system in my lifetime, I just hope its implemented properly. I certainly dont have the answers, just how I believe things will work based on what I do know.

I 100% agree that we cant let insurers do what they think is best though, because they really dont care, no matter how much every one of them claims to. I work in Fraud Investigation and I do believe that what my area does makes a difference, but all that the people in charge see are dollar savings for the company when theres so much more than that.


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Not_an_Owl posted...

Yeah, the most important part is making a societal commitment to not let people die because healthcare is too expensive. There's no reason for people in the richest country in the world to not be able to afford seeing a doctor.

This part really gets me. One of my last calls before I got out of customer service was with a guy who had over $100,000 in bills and was going to lose his house. I talked with my supervisor for a half hour trying to find some way we could help this guy out. I wanted to, and I think she did too, but in the end it wasnt up to us. There are so many people that have it worse than that guy did too

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RaidenGarai posted...

This part really gets me. One of my last calls before I got out of customer service was with a guy who had over $100,000 in bills and was going to lose his house. I talked with my supervisor for a half hour trying to find some way we could help this guy out. I wanted to, and I think she did too, but in the end it wasnt up to us. There are so many people that have it worse than that guy did too

Nah your business definitely isnt evil, dude.


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Nah your business definitely isnt evil, dude.

I never said they werent, I just said that the people who work in the industry arent. Well, an overwhelming majority of us at least. I cant say the same about the people who make the decisions that lead to things like that!

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RaidenGarai posted...

I never said they werent, I just said that the people who work in the industry arent. Well, an overwhelming majority of us at least.

If a man voluntarily serves an organization he knows to be evil, can he truly claim righteousness?

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Not_an_Owl posted...

If a man voluntarily serves an organization he knows to be evil, can he truly claim righteousness?

This just is just leading to the "we should improve society somewhat" bit

We should actually improve society so people don't have to work for evil organizations as much.

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https://twitter.com/KevinMKruse/status/1209177981853274112?s=19

All the yikes.

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Cant believe that douchbag was once widely respected

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Saudi Arabia is having five of the actual Khashoggi hitmen executed (meanwhile, MBS, who actually ordered the assassination, continues to face zero consequences):

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1209057743807696898?s=21

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It is easy to be respected when all you have to do is be a figurehead for a major trajedy that the rest of the country is already lining up to help with.

Not_an_Owl posted...

If a man voluntarily serves an organization he knows to be evil, can he truly claim righteousness?

When that organization gave me the better of the two job offers that I had out of college back in 2006, and my family requires the flexibility that they give me for scheduling, Im not going to leave just because. With how expensive daycare is, and the fact that our school district doesnt have buses, I need to work very odd hours to cover childcare and do school pick up and drop off.

I shouldnt have mentioned that I worked for an insurance company, especially in a topic that seems to be mostly progressive. It doesnt matter what I say, it always comes back to this kind of comment.

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RaidenGarai posted...

When that organization gave me the better of the two job offers that I had out of college back in 2006, and my family requires the flexibility that they give me for scheduling, Im not going to leave just because. With how expensive daycare is, and the fact that our school district doesnt have buses, I need to work very odd hours to cover childcare and do school pick up and drop off.

I shouldnt have mentioned that I worked for an insurance company, especially in a topic that seems to be mostly progressive. It doesnt matter what I say, it always comes back to this kind of comment.

That's not true. Keep in mind we are not enemies, it is tough for everyone. Our fight should never be with the working class, OWL

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RaidenGarai posted...

When that organization gave me the better of the two job offers that I had out of college back in 2006, and my family requires the flexibility that they give me for scheduling, Im not going to leave just because. With how expensive daycare is, and the fact that our school district doesnt have buses, I need to work very odd hours to cover childcare and do school pick up and drop off.

It's probably worth noting that M4A doesn't exist in a vacuum and the progressive agenda also wants to provide universal childcare and education, increase minimum wage and workers' rights, paid time off and family leave, and affordable housing. And sure maybe you're skeptical of all that too but no one said progress would be easy.

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RaidenGarai posted...

When that organization gave me the better of the two job offers that I had out of college back in 2006, and my family requires the flexibility that they give me for scheduling, Im not going to leave just because. With how expensive daycare is, and the fact that our school district doesnt have buses, I need to work very odd hours to cover childcare and do school pick up and drop off.

I shouldnt have mentioned that I worked for an insurance company, especially in a topic that seems to be mostly progressive. It doesnt matter what I say, it always comes back to this kind of comment.

This is what drives people from the middle to further right. If the people on the left think I am evil, then why would I be apt to listen to them.

Because you specifically called out the behavior prior, they will play nice now (tho sir Chris wouldn't have done that to you anyways), but the fact that it is so prevalent that you go into it expecting that response is absolutely the problem.

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This is what drives people from the middle to further right. If the people on the left think I am evil, then why would I be apt to listen to them.

buh someone called me something bad, guess ill prove them right by actually being bad
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The blunt way of putting it, is the health insurance industry going to lose a ton of jobs? Yes!

But you know what, for one, none of those people losing their job are going to lose their health insurance with it(Right now losing your job and trying to keep your exact insurance without going through a marketplace can cost what, 400% more or something).

It is a predatory, evil industry(I don't blame the people inside that take the jobs, someone has to do it right now, but the overarching industry is undeniably evil) that we absolutely should do away with. A healthy country is a more productive country, this is, over the long haul, going to create more jobs. People will have more disposable income because less people are going broke over medical costs.

With more people actually using health care services under M4A, there is also going to be a near immediate need for more non-predatory health care jobs.

Do I feel bad that a few people in the lower ends of the industry are going to lose their job? Honestly, not really. It is for the greater good. And again, long term, will create more jobs than are lost.

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main thing i'll say is that it's way more than 900k people. it's around 3 million in that industry alone, from there you can expand the impact to other industries and have the number keep going up. most people in that industry don't make that much money either, it's a very normal job.

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MoogleKupo141 posted...

This is what drives people from the middle to further right. If the people on the left think I am evil, then why would I be apt to listen to them.

buh someone called me something bad, guess ill prove them right by actually being bad

It means you don't want to work with people who act like you are evil for having an opinion. If you are compromising on your opinion to meet in the middle then you are like fuck them when they call you evil for it.

Also, if you know you are a good person and someone is calling you evil for your opinion then you think they obviously have flawed deduction and reasoning so you are else apt to listen to them and are more apt to listen and reason with people who can discuss it with you amicably while still respecting you. It is kind of obvious.

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Wanglicious posted...

most people in that industry don't make that much money either, it's a very normal job.

Theres lots of very normal jobs out there.

More will be created in a healthy, productive country.

Most of these normal jobs are not working for outright evil either.

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Letting your ideals be shaped by what people say to you might be the single most dumbest thing I've ever heard.

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Wanglicious posted...

main thing i'll say is that it's way more than 900k people. it's around 3 million in that industry alone, from there you can expand the impact to other industries and have the number keep going up. most people in that industry don't make that much money either, it's a very normal job.

A lot of far left positions equate with job losses. That is fine and dandy in a good economy but...

That said, the end game goal is the government paying for you to survive via living stipends and such and workers being mostly automation.

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No, there are plenty of dumber things said in this topic all the time. Being shaped by our experiences is very human. There was no need to use that rhetoric against Raiden tbh

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TheRock1525 posted...

Letting your ideals be shaped by what people say to you might be the single most dumbest thing I've ever heard.

I'll remember that anytime you ever support a compromise of any sort in your life ever. This is a truly idiotic post.

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We should never paint a regular employee at one of these places with the same brush as the people up top who organize these businesses with pure profit motives. The people who work for them have the same struggles as many people in this day and age. He expressed concerns that we are frankly failing on as a nation. Child care, education, family leave. What is great news for him is Bernie Sanders understands that plight and wants to help him. These debates require a large amount of nuance, there is no need to make someone feel badly about providing for their family and earning a modest wage. He is not the enemy. So don't talk to him as if he were.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Child care, education, family leave.

At least 2 of these things Trump is on the right path for.

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I will not lie it is hard for me to discuss Trump these days for numerous reasons, but any steps in the right direction are appreciated.

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It means you don't want to work with people who act like you are evil for having an opinion.

opinions arent morally neutral when theyre about stuff that actually matters. This isnt is Star Wars good?, its should people go bankrupt for getting cancer? plus you act on those opinions in the form of voting and the result of that vote affects other people.
Im not saying you specifically are evil for your opinions, but its possible to have opinions that are evil.

Also, if you know you are a good person

do you know that
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Corrik7 posted...

Also, if you know you are a good person and someone is calling you evil for your opinion then you think they obviously have flawed deduction and reasoning

Good people dont know theyre a good person to the point that they think someone who disagrees with that assessment must have flawed reasoning

Whether or not youre a good person is not for you to judge
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Like hes literally saying dont think less of other people for having different opinions and in the same breath thinking less of people for having a different opinion on how good of a person he is.
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red13n posted...

Theres lots of very normal jobs out there.

More will be created in a healthy, productive country.

and not one word of that is going to be something that the vast majority of those 3 million people care about.
and i don't mean the "few people in the lower ends of the industry," i mean the overwhelming majority. enjoy some numbers. note that the median ranges from 40k to 80k.

https://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag524.htm

the people on the top will be fine and mostly unaffected as they'll shift to other financial industries. everyone else gets fucked as a sixth of the economy is disrupted. and don't expect any of these details to be quiet come general election time, along with a list of all the industries affected and the millions more jobs that'll be added on. this is getting an interesting pass in the democratic primaries: the morality is taking center stage over the direct results so when a general election comes by those who started negotiating from weaker positions - Warren/Pete, Biden, Yang - won't have as jarring a result. just depends on how you want to deal with it: as politics or as an issue with people? if the former you stick with it the way Bernie has, if the latter you focus on reforms that don't do as much (Warren/Pete are gradual changes to minimize impact, Biden is probably the most realistic tweaking with a focus on minimal impact, Yang's is a strange long term idea to change the way multiple industries work where the biggest job risk is in pharmaceuticals).

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If the left saying your job is evil makes you move right, but the right caging kids, suppressing LGBT rights, suppressing women's rights and giving tax cuts to the rich while decrying food stamps doesn't make you move back left... then I'm not sure you're as center as you think you are.

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The insurance industry is not inherently evil. They provide a needed service (mitigating risk); in the absence of insurance, even more people with large, unexpected medical costs would be going bankrupt. That isn't to say that there aren't problems or that the government couldn't necessarily do a better job, but it's not morally wrong to work for an insurer.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The insurance industry is not inherently evil. They provide a needed service (mitigating risk); in the absence of insurance, even more people with large, unexpected medical costs would be going bankrupt. That isn't to say that there aren't problems or that the government couldn't necessarily do a better job, but it's not morally wrong to work for an insurer.

Yeah I would say its a symptom, not a cause
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Also again I would like to revisit this notion that only the left thinks the other side is evil. Trump is the standard bearer for conservative thought. Have you SEEN how he talks about his enemies?
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As a federal employee I do appreciate the change to family leave. My wife and I are trying to have kids and prior to this change I would have needed to use sick/annual leave that I've accrued to have paid time off. It's nice to know that I can actually use my leave for its intended purpose without jeopardizing my ability to have family leave too.

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Corrik7 posted...

At least 2 of these things Trump is on the right path for.

And one of them he was fined $25M for regarding his fraudulent business practices!

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Jakyl25 posted...

Also again I would like to revisit this notion that only the left thinks the other side is evil. Trump is the standard bearer for conservative thought. Have you SEEN how he talks about his enemies?

heres the opener to a recent trump email I got

Democrats have declared open war on American democracy.

229 Democratic TRAITORS voted to impeach President Trump for NO REASON other than the fact that they dont like him.


the subheader was Make then pay

but I guess he didnt explicitly call me evil so im going to consider what he has to say
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Jakyl25 posted...

Also again I would like to revisit this notion that only the left thinks the other side is evil. Trump is the standard bearer for conservative thought. Have you SEEN how he talks about his enemies?

Franklin Graham said the 2020 election would be the Democrats "HIroshima and Nagasaki". Which was very Christian of him!

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The insurance industry is not inherently evil. They provide a needed service (mitigating risk)

This is accurate for insurance industries that aren't health-related.

With the health insurance industry, there isn't really any concept of "mitigating risk". When something happens, you literally pay or die. They're just middle men who are there for the sole purpose of skimming money off the top and profiting while also jacking up prices so that people literally can't afford to go without insurance.

The profit motive being weighed against people's health and lives (And usually far more heavily) is what makes the health insurance industry specifically evil. Which is why so many of us want a system where the profit motive is taken out of it (The simplest way being getting the government involved)

(Also shit like this is literally why I said a few days ago that you go to bat for the health insurance industry every fucking chance you get)

(Also want to make it clear that I don't think it's necessarily morally wrong to work for an insurer, but if you were to try to classify the larger industry, evil would absolutely be the way to go)

On a tangential note there, fuck Harry Truman
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Damn you morality. We should just tell people to fuck off and die instead.