Current Events > "The freer the market, the freer the people" is bullshit

(+) Yeah! (+)

The freer the market, the freer corporations are to fuck over everybody else so they and their shareholders can enrich themselves no matter how many people are hurt by their actions

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Bioshock was a warning.

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some say that a lot of medication and medical equipment is actually really cheap , but expensive for reasons

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Beveren_Rabbit posted...

some say that a lot of medication and medical equipment is actually really cheap , but expensive for reasons

Unlike pretty much every other first world country, healthcare is primarily a commercial concern in America. So you pay like ten times what things actually cost LOL

ArchiePeck posted...

Unlike pretty much every other first world country, healthcare is primarily a commercial concern in America. So you pay like ten times what things actually cost LOL

ArchiePeck posted...

Unlike pretty much every other first world country, healthcare is primarily a commercial concern in America. So you pay like ten times what things actually cost LOL

The freer the market, the freer people are to die an early death from a medical issue they can't afford to fix

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America foots the bill for most of the good R&D, you're welcome world

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me: ok

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so explain to us why there is such a strong correlation between free markets and free people

TheGreatGeno? pft. more like TheComradeGeno, mirite?

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That coupled with the notion that said freedom must be absolutely uninfringed is literally the wisdom of a 6-7 year old me. Every time I see somebody who believes the free market must be the sole answer to everything and socialism has absolutely zero place, all I see is somebody with the intellect and notion of what it means for America to be its best, of somebody who's barely older than a toddler.

I would say they are still "freer" in general, even if a perfectly free market still wouldn't lead to perfectly free people.

free market is just nature bby

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funny thing is free market is the enemy of giant corporations

We should give up our guns, freedom, lower taxes and individuality so that we can have free healthcare and college.

said....a lot of people

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coh posted...

funny thing is free market is the enemy of giant corporations

This

Without government intervention, companies will just bloat to massive sizes until competition isn't even possible anymore

I mean, that's what we've been seeing for a few decades now
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Nice circlejerk topic. The fact is free markets stem naturally from a free society, although there has been plenty of evidence that an unregulated economy isn't a good thing.
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TheGreatGeno6 posted...

The freer the market, the freer corporations are to fuck over everybody else so they and their shareholders can enrich themselves no matter how many people are hurt by their actions

The role of government is play referee. It becomes a problem when theres too many referres in the field or when they are paid off. Government needs accountability like everyone else. Corporations get away with dirt because the referres were paid off. its a government and corporate issue.

MarqueeSeries posted...

This

Without government intervention, companies will just bloat to massive sizes until competition isn't even possible anymore

I mean, that's what we've been seeing for a few decades now

I meant more that government intervention actually helps them because they can bail them out

coh posted...

MarqueeSeries posted...

This

Without government intervention, companies will just bloat to massive sizes until competition isn't even possible anymore

I mean, that's what we've been seeing for a few decades now

I meant more that government intervention actually helps them because they can bail them out

When you have a corrupt government, yeah

Proper government intervention is actually ideal though. See: the recent Nestle fiasco
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MarqueeSeries posted...

This

Without government intervention, companies will just bloat to massive sizes until competition isn't even possible anymore

I mean, that's what we've been seeing for a few decades now

How? You do know we don't have a free market, right?

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An actual free market would be the bane of large corporations and their profit motives, since they'd be footing the bill for the freedom and rights of consumers and workers. But our idea of a free market involves the freedom of corporations, not the consumers and workers, so we get the current dystopia we live in instead.

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i agree with you but the whole concept of corporations is pretty much a creation of the state

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There is a balance that needs to be played. Right now anyone with a functioning brain knows corporations have to much power in their favor.

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Imagine thinking that the state and capital are in bed with eachother, but thinking that the answer is just for capital to kick the state out of bed.

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If the wealthy and corporations always tend to capture the government due to their disproportionate economic power, isn't that a knock against this hypothetical free market? Just like how lots of people tend to end up dead under the heel of an authoritarian dictator under Communism, you kinda have to prove it's not part of the package at this point.

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coh posted...

funny thing is free market is the enemy of giant corporations

Basically.
Copyright is a government protection.

If the market was super free, you could make an iphone and sell it.

The market tc is hating on is one that has tons of government intetventions like requiring a license to sell certain things, a permit, etc.

https://fee.org/articles/is-the-corporation-a-free-market-institution/

Is the modern large publicly traded business corporation compatible with a truly free market?
The question itself may seem strange, even silly. Corporations are primary actors in what the media refer to as the market economy. Also, when the media refer to the market, they as often as not mean the stock exchange, which is the place where the shares of large corporations are traded. Moreover, during the age of socialist ascendancy, many defenders of the free market have felt themselves moved to defend the corporation against socialist or liberal attacks.

Many genuine advocates of the free market even appear willing to make the stronger claim that a defense of the free market requires a defense of the corporation. In their view, defending the corporate form of business organization is an essential part of the argument for the free market. Prima facie, there seems to be a strong case for saying that the large publicly traded corporation is compatible with the requirements of the free market.

Nevertheless, I believe classical liberals and libertarians have good reasons to question that view. First, what the media say is not always accurate even on the count of reporting facts, which supposedly is their core business. Conceptual analysis is not their forte. They do not have much consideration for the theoretical contexts from which terms such as free market derive their significance or for the requirements of consistency in their use of such theory laden terms. The stock exchange is a market of sorts, but it is not the market. In any case, the stock exchanges with which the media are familiar are not really free but rather
heavily regulated markets.

However, being binding on third parties is the primary function of that other type of artificial personality, legal personality. As John Marshall opined, a corporation is an artificial being, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of the law. The crucial phrase is in contemplation of the law. The law in question obviously is neither the natural law nor the law established by the contract that founds the corporation. The phrase here means in the contemplation of the officials and agents of the existing legal order.

Artificial Systems Derive from Rulers Commands

Corporations are a construct of the government

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DirkDiggles posted...

TheGreatGeno? pft. more like TheComradeGeno, mirite?

Our shit posts.

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When are we gonna see classical liberals and libertarians arguing to reduce corporate power then? I'm sure it'll happen any day now. They certainly don't constantly argue for rule by wealth.

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We need common sense socialism to replace the rotting and failed capitalist structure.

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legendary_zell posted...

When are we gonna see classical liberals and libertarians arguing to reduce corporate power then? I'm sure it'll happen any day now. They certainly don't constantly argue for rule by wealth.

Well I found this:

https://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/11/dear-left-corporatism-is-your-fault/

Im not usually one for polemics. But sometimes polemics is called for. Here goes.
Dear members of the moderate left,
America is suffering from rampant, run-away corporatism and crony capitalism. We are increasingly a plutocracy in which government serves the interests of elite financiers and CEOs at the expense of everyone else.
You know this and you complain loudly about it. But the problem is your fault. You caused this state of affairs. Stop it.
Unlike we libertarianish people, you people actually hold and have been holding significant political power in the US over the past 50 years. What have you done with this power? Youve greased the corporatist machine every chance youve gotten. Youve made things worse, not better. Our current problems are your fault. You need to stop.
We told you this would happen, but you wouldnt listen. You complain, rightly, that regulatory agencies are controlled by the very corporations they are supposed to constrain. Well, yeah, we told you that would happen. When you create powerand you people love to create powerthe unscrupulous seek to capture that power for their personal benefit. Time and time again, they succeed. We told you that would happen, and we gave you an accurate account of how it would happen.
You complain, perhaps rightly, that corporations are just too big. Well, yeah, we told you that would happen. When you create complicated tax codes, complicated regulatory regimes, and complicated licensing rules, these regulations naturally select for larger and larger corporations. We told you that would happen. Of course, these increasingly large corporations then capture these rules, codes, and regulations to disadvantage their competitors and exploit the rest of us. We told you that would happen.
Its not rocket science. Its public choice economics. You recognized, rightly, that public choice economics was a threat to your ideology. So, you didnt listen, because you didnt want to be wrong. Public choice predicted that the government programs you created with the goal of fixing problems would often instead exacerbate those problems. Well, the evidence is in. You were wrong and public choice theory was right. If you have any decency, it is time to admit you were wrong and change. Stop making things worse.
You spent the past fifty years empowering corporations and the most unscrupulous of the rich. You created rampant moral hazard in the financial sector. You created the system that socializes risks but privatizes profit. You created the system that creates a revolving door between Obamas staff and Goldman Sachs. Theres a reason why Wall Street throws money at Obama. Its because you, the moderate left, are Wall Streets biggest supporters. Oh, I know you complain about Wall Street. But your actions speak louder than your words.
You balk: Isnt the problem the regressive pro-market post-Reagan politics? Please, people. Lets be serious a moment. Reagan used a bunch of pro-market, pro-liberty, anti-big government rhetoric, but the man was no libertarian, and he did little to make the country more libertarian. Reagan spent and spent, and thus ran up the debt. He doubled the number of imports with trade restrictions. He pursued militaristic foreign policy. He increased rather than decreased the size, scope, and power of government. Reagan ramped up the war on Americans civil liberties drugs. He wasnt even a big deregulatorthat was Carter. Look past rhetoric to reality. Reagan was in practice just a more militaristic version of one of you. (More militaristic? Maybe Im giving you too much credit. While we spent Black Friday shopping, Obama spent it having his military murder innocent Afghan children.)
Point your fingers at yourself. You did this.
Now, heres the good news. Unlike we libertarianish people, you members of the moderate left will continue to hold and exercise power. So, learn some public choice, and use what you learn in practice. Im ready to forgive you, if youre ready to change.

Is there an example of a system where the rich didn't capture the system? And is the solution to just have a society with no rules? Would that somehow reduce their power? It sounds like that writer is saying that government is a priori bad and so any bad thing that the government does is because government is bad and any bad thing a corporation or rich person does is also because of the government.

The problem with regulatory capture is the power amassed by individuals and groups of individuals and the lack of ethics and disincentives for corruption. We've focused on the wrong type of regulations and the people blocking those ethics regulations because there anti-all regulation. We need to increase competition and flatten out wealth disparities and we'll see less ability for regulatory capture and monopolies to form.

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you people know nothing of true freedom
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legendary_zell posted...

flatten out wealth disparities

Wealth disparities are not necessarily bad. This just reeks of jealousy or lack of understanding of basic economics.

Loud_Pipes posted...

Wealth disparities are not necessarily bad. This just reeks of jealousy or lack of understanding of basic economics.

They are when concentrated wealth is used to hold communities hostage by tying their jobs to not exercising worker power through unions or threatening to leave if they have to pay a living wage to employees. It's bad when that wealth is used to distort the political system through campaign donations, access buying, and warping where society can even seek funds from. It's bad when the wealthy use their influence to pay for custom made laws like they do through organizations like ALEC. It's bad when they use their concentrated wealth to purchase news organizations around the world and limit news that could challenge their power. It's pretty bad when they pay for fake studies that downplay the damage their money generating businesses are doing to society and the planet or when they pay to suppress true science.

None of that could happen without the extreme concentration of wealth and it all seems pretty negative to me.

There's no jealousy involved, that's simply a reflexive talking point that the wealthy have you spouting for free. Concentrated wealth paid for that rhetoric and you're not benefitting from it.

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<a onclick="return show_quoted_message(400, 78239019, 931327961, '3b565724');" href="/boards/400-current-events/78239019/931327961"><a onclick="return show_quoted_message(400, 78239019, 931327961, '3b565724');" href="/boards/400-current-events/78239019/931327961">legendary_zell posted... </a></a>

They are when concentrated wealth is used to hold communities hostage by tying their jobs to not exercising worker power through unions or threatening to leave if they have to pay a living wage to employees. It's bad when that wealth is used to distort the political system through campaign donations, access buying, and warping where society can even seek funds from. It's bad when the wealthy use their influence to pay for custom made laws like they do through organizations like ALEC. It's bad when they use their concentrated wealth to purchase news organizations around the world and limit news that could challenge their power. It's pretty bad when they pay for fake studies that downplay the damage their money generating businesses are doing to society and the planet or when they pay to suppress true science.

None of that could happen without the extreme concentration of wealth and it all seems pretty negative to me.

There's no jealousy involved, that's simply a reflexive talking point that the wealthy have you spouting for free. Concentrated wealth paid for that rhetoric and you're not benefitting from it.

keep in mind that you're talking to Proudclad

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The "Freedom should be unlimited" types crack me up. Its gotta be internet people.

If I hate my neighbor, I should be able to burn his house down. Thats REAL freedom!

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