Board 8 > Umineko playthrough topic 4

(+) Yeah! (+)

Another piece of narration I missed: George, Battler and Maria couldn't have killed Jessica.

Another shot:

-4 in the dining hall were killed by culprit 1. Culprit 1 and culprit 2 played dead.
-Culprit 1 then killed Natsuhi and Krauss and stayed. Culprit 2 left the mansion before it was sealed.
-Battler killed Shannon.
-Culprit 2 killed Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo.
-George killed Jessica.... nope.

-3 in the dining hall were killed by culprit 1.
-Culprit 2 killed Natsuhi and stayed. Culprit 3 killed Krauss and left. Culrpit 1 and culprit 3 left the mansion.
-Battler killed Shannon.
-Culprit 1 killed Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo, making it 6 people.
-Culprit 3 killed Jessica.

Doesn't work because the George and Maria's parents will all be dead and you can't have 3 people playing dead.

-3 in the dining hall were killed by culprit 1. Culprit 1, 2 and 3 played dead.
-Culprit 2 killed Natsuhi and stayed. George killed Krauss and left. Culrpit 1 and culprit 3 left the mansion.
-Maria killed Shannon.
-Culprit 1 killed Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo, making it 6 people.
-Culprit 3 killed Jessica.

This seems to work? Let's check some purples.
-There is nothing wrong with Battler's statements.
-George lied about no one killing Nanjo in the guesthouse, and Maria not killing anyone.
-Maria lied about George not able to kill an adult.
-The other people's statements are all fine.

Next up is to go back to the first twilight.
-George lied about his parents, so Eva and Hideyoshi are culprits.
-Maria lied about her parent, so Rosa is a culprit.

It fits with the 3 culprits playing dead!

The culprits are: Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rosa, Maria

A possible scenario:
-Eva kills Rudolf, Kyrie and Genji. Eva, Hideyoshi and Rosa play dead.
-George killed Krauss. Hideyoshi killed Natsuhi. George left while Hideyoshi locked the door from the inside. Eva and Rosa left the mansion.
-Maria killed Shannon.
-Eva kills Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo in the guesthouse, making it 6 people.
-Rosa killed Jessica.

I went through the whole story again and can't find anything wrong with this. Time to select then.

Nope, it's wrong, maybe you guys can find out why. Anyway, I'm certain that I'm correct in how the closed rooms were made.

-Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa, Genji were killed by Rudolf. Rudolf and Kyire played dead.
-Rudolf then killed Natsuhi and Krauss and stayed. Kyrie left the mansion before it was sealed.
-Battler killed Shannon.
-Kyrie killed Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo.
-Kyrie killed Jessica.

This means the culprits were: Rudolf, Kyrie, Battler.

Yes, I finally got it.
Used two hints, not quite what I aimed for in the beginning, and I don't know how many hints there are in total, but that should be pretty good I guess?

handsomeboy2012 posted...

I don't know how many hints there are in total,

Not really a spoiler but
I think it's like 18? By the time you get to the end they pretty much straight up tell you.

---

Went and looked at all the hints because why not. They say the children couldn't have committed the crime in the second twilight - why not? It doesn't stop them from leaving Natsuhi's room because an adult is there to lock it.

There are 21 hints in total. It's similar to my thought process until the middle where I simply brute force it.

Tom Bombadil posted...

Not really a spoiler but
I think it's like 18? By the time you get to the end they pretty much straight up tell you.

Whoops I didn't see your post before typing out mine. Yeah I guess they need to tell you in case someone can't figure it out and get stuck in this part.

Finally I reloaded a save to get that achievement. Cheating sure is fun.
All this thinking tried me out, stopping here for today.

I actually can't think of much reason why George/Maria/Eva/Hideyoshi/Rosa shouldn't work. I assume the author may have overlooked the possibility of two different different people killing Krauss and Natsuhi on the Second Twilight, or didn't fully consider all the implications that would have.

good job breaking the game!

---

The hints pointed out that Bern gave the red of 'the culprit of the first twilight killing 6 people' after the second twilight, so that culprit killing 4 in the first + 2 in the second is what the game is going for? But it can't straight up say that the culprit killed 4+2 because that would be too easy.

I had fun with this puzzle. Some of the purples could have been made less confusing though

Battler, Rudolf, and Kyrie as culprits, definitely designed to hurt Ange as much as possible. This is why Bern didn't seem to mind her puzzle being solved.

Now there is a 'Rudolf's family culprit theory'. The game is trying very hard to drive this home in the past few hours. Yes, I get it already that outsiders will form different sort of theories on what happened based on what little evidence they have and can completely make shit up, can we move on from this? From a storytelling perspective, it would be awful if the entire incident gets reduced into a bunch of theories.

'It's possible to form a logical theory other than that of Rudolf's family'
Well yeah, I formed one of George's family and Maria's family!

'George can commit murder outside the island'
Oh, it's another of those solutions that looks for loopholes in the red truth.

Evatrice and Erika... pairing up... and make a heroic entrance? What has this game come to?

It's just a test to see how much you can withstand the truth, I'm going to help you now after bullying and slicing you into bits and laughing about it. Yeah right, as if anyone would -

Ange is buying into it without question. Thought you were better than this.

Nothing good comes out of Bernkatsel's mouth, so Ange should definitely NOT find the Single Truth. But she would rather believe some asshole witch than her own brother.

So here I am wanting to know what happened, and it feels as if the author keeps implying that 'no, single truths are bad, look at this cat box interpretation, anything could have happened, isn't it brilliant?'

Ange's witch outfit looks terrible.

I fail to understand how Battler keeps on letting Bernkatsel into these games and think it would all fine, that she would come around and be friends, and not be wary of her even a little bit... after a while it's just stupid.

What even is the problem of speculating in the future anyway, it's not like Battler's 'truth' is more legitimate than the truths of the future. Didn't Battler just say his game isn't the truth either?

Ange just gets worse and worse as I go through this episode, now she is teaming up with Bernkatsel to kill everyone on the island including his brother. Why is she made the 'bad guy' for wanting a Single Truth? Am I the bad guy for wanting a Single Truth?

They're going to escape to the Golden Land, now that's a place I haven't seen or heard of for a while. Still have no idea what it is supposed to be or represent.

Some of the magical beings represent fantasy - they are illusions of Beatrice and the people around her. The others represent mysteries - I don't know where they came from, maybe a personification of mystery rules?

Then Battler shows up with his Golden Sword. Wow, I thought the game completely forgot about that it existed, he used it once in episode 5 and that was it. I don't even remember what it is supposed to do.

Next up is Battler vs Erika again. Wouldn't be a last episode if everyone doesn't get a big sendoff.

It's kind of like the end of episode 4 with all those ridiculous murder methods. This is probably going to be quick, and the chained-locked-room mystery isn't important to the overall story, so I won't rack my brains out solving this myself.

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Why is she made the 'bad guy' for wanting a Single Truth? Am I the bad guy for wanting a Single Truth?

Yes.

---

Beatrice fights Ange. You know, I'd rather have Battler against Ange, that would be something.

Back to Hachijo's room - this episode is all over the place - and Bernkatsel is her cat? Just like the magical people are the illusions made by Yasu, the entire cast and story of Umineko is a illlusion made by Hachijo for her books, based on the Rokkenjima story? I mean, the Ushiromiya family are real people, but are Kinzo and Yasu and everyone else's backstories real or not?

Ok, what I'm getting here is that... Hachijo wrote all the stories from the first episode to the last, and now she plans on giving Eva's diary to Ange to see what she would do to finish the story. She even put herself, as Featherine, and her cat, as Bernkatsel in there. She never opened the diary though so why did Featherine say in red that the diary contains the truth. The is all my speculation btw.

I get why they don't want Ange to find out the single truth, there are many things in life where you are better off not knowing than knowing. But Umineko players don't have a personal stake in this, it's not like I'm going to be emotionally hurt or anything, it's two completely different situations, you can't tell me 'what's the point of knowing the truth' after I spent like 400 hours combined on Umineko and this topic

I mean, obviously I don't know whether the single truth will be shown, but it's heading in the direction of 'nope'

The argument that Ange should live on in the future and you know, not die, is sound. What's this crap about hoping for a miracle that one of them might have survived though, no sane person would keeping thinking this could happen after 12 years, and it is important to accept her family's deaths if she were to keep living on.

Welp, she has lost it. Her mental state isn't suited for a single truth.
This has pretty much thrown away all her development in episode 4. Let's have readers go through a loooong journey of enlightenment and understanding of magic with Ange, then have her say it was worthless in the end! Lol

In the first place, accepting that your family is dead doesn't have to mean you can't imagine them watching over you or that you can't have a better future. But that's what Ange thinks, so what can I say

Well, to be fair, Ange probably has a lot of issues from everything she went through.

---

I'm willing to bet that Bern's red truth is yet another trick. Like guaranteeing Ange will be the first to read it, and by 'read' it means for a second before stealing it or something.

Hachijo must hate her cat a lot to make it such an bitch in her stories, if it is really her stories.

Bern must have some power that makes people around trust her. Battler wants to makes friends, Ange keeps going with her plans, and Erika has stockholm syndrome. And this is after Bern screwed them multiple times over.

Earlier, in the car, Ange said she wanted revenge by finding out the truth. That was after Eva died
Now the game is saying she stopped wanting revenge after Eva died

This game keeps on developing Ange and eventually throwing it away. You know, people never truly die in this magical world, you can turn them into meat and revive them over and over. Bern can do that to Ange and say she fulfilled her promise to let her die.

Now it's saying the truth is worthless

And Ange is having second thoughts, she sure changes her mind a lot

For the record I do not appreciate being compared to fucking Erika and a bunch of evil goats who are out to kill the entire cast, just because I want a single truth

Like, I won't be mad if it ends without revealing a single truth, maybe a bit disappointed, but the theme of 'one truth Bad, cat box Good' is so in your face

I'm not sure what they are trying to achieve by getting Ange to come to the Golden Land, she's just going to get killed like everyone else. Oh, right, she wanted to die anyway. Unless they can't be totally destroyed if Ange refuses to open the book lock?

I didn't think she would open the book. She learns the truth, and then goes berserk, refusing to accept it (after going on and on about how Battler is wrong and destroying the game). Then she jumps off the building and dies. Or did she? People never die forever in this game.

And of course, that single truth is kept hidden from the reader. This is the worst case scenario - Ange knows, I don't, by very in line with Umineko's tradition of not telling me anything.

Hachijo Ikuko picked up someone with amnesia. This person is 18 years old. My first thought went to Ange, but Hachijo would have recongized her.

The Hachijo I knew has Ikuko's face and the name of Tohya. What?

This amnesiac is likely to be some character I know - Battler was 18 in 1986, and I think Shannon and Jessica are the same age? Making this take place in 1986 too. After all, none of the family's bodies were confirmed after the accident. Add the fact that this person likes mysteries and fights about it....

(Instead of calling the cops, or helping this person find their family and friends, she decides to confine some random injured person in her house. I don't think this sort of thing is allowed)

There's memories of Rokkenjima and the family and how the incident is getting popular, I'm more and more convinced this is Battler.

It then shifts back to Ange, who was very conveniently found by her family in the Golden Land. You know, it's really hard to feel anything about these characters dying when this happens all the time. She 'would float in oblivion forever in anguish', and then moments later this happens. Does this mean Ange is dead dead, in the real world too and therefore reunited with her family?

This would be much better if Ange has this realization during Battler's game, or before she opened Eva's diary, and went to her family of her own accord.
Instead she believed in Bernkatsel, helped ruin the game board, immediately rejected the truth after reading it, and committed suicide. And despite all of this, she returned to the family, decided she had a future after all, and never had to live with her decisions.

All this time it was implied that she won't be with the family as presented by Battler if she read that diary, that she chooses her own path. Well, her choice actually doesn't matter at all because she got handed a miracle anyway! Give me a break.

Oh NOW you're saying that knowing the truth, that everyone is already dead, will help Ange move forward as she didn't have to cling to false hope anymore. This makes total sense. Would have saved a lot of trouble if this was the idea from the very beginning.

I am also reminded again that the truth doesn't matter. Someone should count how many times they said 'cat box'. Yawn.

Very much doubt that Beatrice's act is working here, Erika is a detective after all. All she had to do is to walk closer to see through it.

Even Lambda and Evatrice are helping them out. We're heading towards a final battle.

It's nice that they made up. But I still think that Eva had to bear most of the responsibility of she and Ange falling out. Ange is a kid, Eva is an adult, a kid throwing tantrums and hating on you is no excuse to mistreat her.

Ah shit, she did find out. Damn you Gohda, don't speak a thing if you are bad at acting.

While I'm in the middle of reading this battle I would like to mention how annoying these laughs and how ridiculously violent this game can get. Because every character is fighting now it has finally become prevalent enough for me to post it here

Not liking Lambda's chances against Bern, these stories always have the big bad fight the main character in the end, and I bet it's going to be Battler against Bern

Ange is supposed to get the key and get through a door in the Golden Land. But at this rate there won't be a Golden Land left

This is the first time I have ever seen a character being killed by writing.

Well Lambda, you probably won't be top 5 but I think you'll be in a pretty good spot when I eventually do a final character ranking.

Haha yes
I can't express how satisfied I am seeing a CG of Bern getting punched and bleeding

Why is this first time she felt pain in a hundred years though, vomiting candies and colours from the last fight isn't painful for her?