Current Events > I thought the camper controversy around Modern Warfare was an exaggeration

(+) Yeah! (+)

The long range rifles are just as good at killing up close as SMGs, Hip-firing is almost useless, movement speed has little to no variation based on weapon choices, doors can be closed (making it way harder to get the drop on a camper), claymores explode almost instantly, etc.

It's a camper's dream. Not to mention most of the maps are designed in camper-friendly ways with very few flanking paths built in.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Yeah I'm trying to decide what FPS to switch to now

This one is dead to me barring major changes

CoD WW2 is going to be my choice. If Black Ops 2 weren't so infested by hackers I'd play that a lot more too.
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Doors were a mistake and I have no idea why claymores don't just have the tick, pause, boom they had in the Modern Warfare trilogy

The maps are definitely way too camper friendly

And dear god the footsteps are still insane, it sounds like I'm playing Siege instead of CoD

And the skill based matchmaking is just straight dreadful too

I've wondered a couple times if it would be better if claymores had to be manually detonated, but then it would end up like Rising Storm 2 where they're damn-near useless except for humiliation kills.
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c4 has to be manually detonated and nobody uses it lol
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

I've wondered a couple times if it would be better if claymores had to be manually detonated

Isn't that just what C4 does? C4 needs to be manually detonated but has the benefit of you being able to throw it instead of just place it down on the ground.
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Patch notes say they buffed the SCAR's ADS speed but apparently there's zero difference

lmfao

I've been trying to use the EBR to get the Mk14 feel from MW3, but it's flinch is awful.

I also miss the minimap, as a player who used to live or die by dots on the minimap, this new compass system is awful. It's why campers can get away with camping in the billion little nooks and crannys in this game.
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LookANinja posted...

I've been trying to use the EBR to get the Mk14 feel from MW3, but it's flinch is awful.

I also miss the minimap, as a player who used to live or die by dots on the minimap, this new compass system is awful. It's why campers can get away with camping in the billion little nooks and crannys in this game.

Real talk, all the Marksman rifles feel like straight fucking dookie.

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Pogo_Marimo posted...

LookANinja posted...

I've been trying to use the EBR to get the Mk14 feel from MW3, but it's flinch is awful.

I also miss the minimap, as a player who used to live or die by dots on the minimap, this new compass system is awful. It's why campers can get away with camping in the billion little nooks and crannys in this game.

Real talk, all the Marksman rifles feel like straight fucking dookie.

Freal. I tried to use the Fal but the lack of consistent two shot kill makes it feel a bit weak, people say to get the burst attachment for it, but.. that's just not what i'm looking for. I usually end up spraying like 6 or 7 shots at one dude to get them down. Maybe the EBR will be better once i unlock Focus and other attachments.
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https://i.imgur.com/xSHtkm3.jpg

LookANinja posted...

Pogo_Marimo posted...

LookANinja posted...

I've been trying to use the EBR to get the Mk14 feel from MW3, but it's flinch is awful.

I also miss the minimap, as a player who used to live or die by dots on the minimap, this new compass system is awful. It's why campers can get away with camping in the billion little nooks and crannys in this game.

Real talk, all the Marksman rifles feel like straight fucking dookie.

Freal. I tried to use the Fal but the lack of consistent two shot kill makes it feel a bit weak, people say to get the burst attachment for it, but.. that's just not what i'm looking for. I usually end up spraying like 6 or 7 shots at one dude to get them down. Maybe the EBR will be better once i unlock Focus and other attachments.

The thing about "just use burst lol" is that you've got to suffer through leveling it up to 50-something to even get to that point.
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There are way too many weapon levels in this one

literally everything about this game's design inherently benefits campers and punishes rushers.

wouldn't that be true of any of these games, though?

like if you take two equally skilled players and one is allowed to camp and the other isn't, who wins?

this is a logic issue. you need to make a gunfight game where running into explosions and bullets is the choice more likely to give you more kills than deaths.

it does sound like a few of these design choices add on to the advantage, but wouldn't you say it's there in the first place?
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Camping would be less of a problem if we could see red dots on the minimap to show which corner they're in.
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Game's beyond fixing until they bump up the time to kill, change literally every single map (not even ONE is straightforward, they're ALL convoluted messes with 1,000 corners to check), and give each gun a universal ADS speed buff

that won't ever happen

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oh and remove the perk that gives your equipment back every 30 seconds

free claymores forever, what the fuck were they thinking??

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Pancake posted...

wouldn't that be true of any of these games, though?

like if you take two equally skilled players and one is allowed to camp and the other isn't, who wins?

But like I said, the problem is that they took the balance too far in the campers' favor with this game. In this game, there are far more tools for campers to use, those tools are stronger than in past games (like claymores being replenishable and detonating instantly instead of on a delay), there are far fewer counters to those things, the counters that we do have are weaker than in the past (like Dead Silence not always being active and EOD sometimes not letting you survive a proximity mine even at full health), and the map design and fast time-to-kill also cater to campers and punish rushers for moving around. Campers of much lower skill levels can beat rushers of much higher skill levels more often than not, which simply should not happen.

My favorite game in the franchise is Black Ops 2, and BO2 had a ton of camping tools (bouncing betties, shock charges, deployable riot shield, the target finder attachment, Awareness) to abuse as well. But it also had more counters to those things (EMP grenades, black hats, the MMS attachment, Cold Blooded, Dead Silence, Flak Jacket) and the counters were also stronger (like how running Flak Jacket + Tactical Mask lets you run through a shock-betty combo and barely take any damage) as well. Camping was strong, but the counters were strong too, letting rushers still beat campers a decent amount of the time. Campers didn't completely dominate lobbies 90% of the time.

In this game, that isn't the case. Aggressive play is punished. Moving around is punished. Doing literally anything but camping in a dark corner with an M4 or a shotgun and claymores guarding every entry point is punished, and you either sink to that level and do the same thing or you lose to the people doing it. I've seen games hit the time limit with neither team even getting 40 kills when the score limit is 75, and that's just not fun at all. The strict skill-based matchmaking is only making the problem worse, because you don't get those situations where a higher skill rusher can still beat a lower skill camper since you almost always play players around your skill level.

So all in all, the game is just completely fucked at a fundamental level. It's nearly impossible for aggressive players to succeed in this game against relatively equally skilled campers, and you can't even get the chance to out-skill a bad camper due to the strict SBMM going on behind the scenes.
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yeah the game is straight up poorly designed

i was wondering about counters actually! like if you could set these things off from a distance or shoot them or something.

i think it's safe to say that camping has so many natural advantages that they need to design with that in mind.
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Bullet penetration is pretty shoddy (Compared to COD 4 at least) which makes it hard to kill campers inside buildings, too.
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GallisOTK posted...

Pancake posted...

wouldn't that be true of any of these games, though?

like if you take two equally skilled players and one is allowed to camp and the other isn't, who wins?

But like I said, the problem is that they took the balance too far in the campers' favor with this game. In this game, there are far more tools for campers to use, those tools are stronger than in past games (like claymores being replenishable and detonating instantly instead of on a delay), there are far fewer counters to those things, the counters that we do have are weaker than in the past (like Dead Silence not always being active and EOD sometimes not letting you survive a proximity mine even at full health), and the map design and fast time-to-kill also cater to campers and punish rushers for moving around. Campers of much lower skill levels can beat rushers of much higher skill levels more often than not, which simply should not happen.

My favorite game in the franchise is Black Ops 2, and BO2 had a ton of camping tools (bouncing betties, shock charges, deployable riot shield, the target finder attachment, Awareness) to abuse as well. But it also had more counters to those things (EMP grenades, black hats, the MMS attachment, Cold Blooded, Dead Silence, Flak Jacket) and the counters were also stronger (like how running Flak Jacket + Tactical Mask lets you run through a shock-betty combo and barely take any damage) as well. Camping was strong, but the counters were strong too, letting rushers still beat campers a decent amount of the time. Campers didn't completely dominate lobbies 90% of the time.

In this game, that isn't the case. Aggressive play is punished. Moving around is punished. Doing literally anything but camping in a dark corner with an M4 or a shotgun and claymores guarding every entry point is punished, and you either sink to that level and do the same thing or you lose to the people doing it. I've seen games hit the time limit with neither team even getting 40 kills when the score limit is 75, and that's just not fun at all. The strict skill-based matchmaking is only making the problem worse, because you don't get those situations where a higher skill rusher can still beat a lower skill camper since you almost always play players around your skill level.

So all in all, the game is just completely fucked at a fundamental level. It's nearly impossible for aggressive players to succeed in this game against relatively equally skilled campers, and you can't even get the chance to out-skill a bad camper due to the strict SBMM going on behind the scenes.

Well shit, so i guess the complaints against campers are pretty legit.
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you can't blame players for playing your game in a way that will have them winning it. you need to make your game winnable in more ways.
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Pancake posted...

you can't blame players for playing your game in a way that will have them winning it. you need to make your game winnable in more ways.

Yeah I'm not blaming the players for playing the way they do, there's always gonna be people like that in shooters

It's 100% on the devs for making such a lopsided game

How long do they stay there before running out ammo? Don't really play FPS games myself, but the rare ones I do I have to actively move around to get more shots.
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loafy013 posted...

How long do they stay there before running out ammo? Don't really play FPS games myself, but the rare ones I do I have to actively move around to get more shots.

There's a perk called scavenger that lets them get ammo off of dead bodies.
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Everything Gallis said in that long post is 100% correct. Preach, brother.

Pancake posted...

i was wondering about counters actually! like if you could set these things off from a distance or shoot them or something.

You CAN, but if you shoot them, they still explode (alerting the camper who placed it) and likely wound you. So the camper can just put one bullet into you, kill you, then put down another claymore that they replenished by doing absolutely nothing using the Restock perk. If you run the EOD perk, you can maybe find just the right angle to be able to hack the claymore without setting it off, but a good camper will place them well so you can't reach it without setting it off.

loafy013 posted...

How long do they stay there before running out ammo? Don't really play FPS games myself, but the rare ones I do I have to actively move around to get more shots.

With shotguns that can kill in 1-2 shots or LMG's that have massive 100-round mags, campers can often survive at least into double digits for gun kills before ever needing to find another weapon. With other gun types, there's also the Scavenger perk (pick up ammo from enemies' bodies) and the Fully Loaded weapon perk (start with the maximum amount of ammo each life) to ensure they never run out of ammo.

Oh, and the aforementioned Restock perk to replenish claymores and mines, so they can get free kills without even using their gun.
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bo2 sounded like it had the kind of counters needed in a game like this.
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I still dont get all the camper complaints for this game. No way theres more camping in this game than Ghosts. Yall must be playing HC or TDM or some crap. I see a little camping but not that much at all. I also almost exclusively play KC and DOM.

Wewillrocku posted...

what about microtransactions? does modern warfare have that?

None, and it wont have any apart from a premium content stream for the upcoming battle pass, but that will only contain cosmetics. All guns, maps and gameplay-related content is free.
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JScriv posted...

I still dont get all the camper complaints for this game. No way theres more camping in this game than Ghosts. Yall must be playing HC or TDM or some crap. I see a little camping but not that much at all. I also almost exclusively play KC and DOM.

There absolutely is as much camping as Ghosts, and it's even stronger than it was in Ghosts.

This is the first CoD game since Ghosts where I see more games hit the time limit than the score limit. Even in Kill Confirmed, people don't play aggressively and don't play the objective. It's painfully slow.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Patch notes say they buffed the SCAR's ADS speed but apparently there's zero difference

lmfao

SCAR does aim faster now. Check again. Maybe try not running it with magnification optics and long barrels.
viewmaster_pi posted...

Game's beyond fixing until they bump up the time to kill, change literally every single map (not even ONE is straightforward, they're ALL convoluted messes with 1,000 corners to check), and give each gun a universal ADS speed buff

that won't ever happen

So you want longer TTK, but also faster ADS? Pick one. The TTK is fine. The full-auto ARs do less damage than they did in the old MW games and Ghosts. Pretty sure most weapons do less damage generally.

Also Shoot House exists. Literally cant get much simpler than that. Gun Runner and Hackney Yard are also pretty straight-forward maps...
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Gobstoppers12 posted...

loafy013 posted...

How long do they stay there before running out ammo? Don't really play FPS games myself, but the rare ones I do I have to actively move around to get more shots.

There's a perk called scavenger that lets them get ammo off of dead bodies.

Oh it's worse than that

The ammo crate field order allows them to refill their ammo without even moving to pick up a dropped supply pack

GallisOTK posted...

JScriv posted...

I still dont get all the camper complaints for this game. No way theres more camping in this game than Ghosts. Yall must be playing HC or TDM or some crap. I see a little camping but not that much at all. I also almost exclusively play KC and DOM.

There absolutely is as much camping as Ghosts, and it's even stronger than it was in Ghosts.

This is the first CoD game since Ghosts where I see more games hit the time limit than the score limit. Even in Kill Confirmed, people don't play aggressively and don't play the objective. It's painfully slow.

In my experience there is way less camping than Ghosts. Very rarely does KC go to time limit for me. Even Piccadilly and St. Petrograd. There are always people running around. Not sure what to tell you, maybe youre getting matched with sweats. Im pretty casual these days, mostly play split-screen with my wife.

You can always queue up Shoot House if you want a fast-paced game for a change of pace...
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Devs really need to balance games where boring and unfun playstyles like this are unviable.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Pancake posted...

you can't blame players for playing your game in a way that will have them winning it. you need to make your game winnable in more ways.

Yeah I'm not blaming the players for playing the way they do, there's always gonna be people like that in shooters

It's 100% on the devs for making such a lopsided game

Agreed, a game that's too lopsided towards one play style isn't good. If they went too far in the other direction and made a game that was too fast-paced and chaotic for defensive players to succeed (Infinite Warfare sort of did this and I wasn't too fond of that one either) it would be bad too.

JScriv posted...

The TTK is fine. The full-auto ARs do less damage than they did in the old MW games and Ghosts. Pretty sure most weapons do less damage generally.

A fast TTK would be fine for a more fast-paced game that rewards accuracy and incentivizes aggressive play. But in a game as campy as this one and Ghosts, it only gives campers an even bigger advantage because rushers have even less time to react. Getting caught sprinting, or walking across the street, or moving at all, or doing literally anything besides standing perfectly still pre-aiming a corner all day, is risky and heavily punished. Even if the camper misses a few shots, you're still melted before you can even react.

If it were just the fast TTK, or just the over-complicated maps, or just powerful and replenishable claymores, or just loud footsteps letting campers soundwhore you, it wouldn't be a big deal. But stack them all together and you have a slow, boring, problematic game like this one.

JScriv posted...

In my experience there is way less camping than Ghosts. Very rarely does KC go to time limit for me. Even Piccadilly and St. Petrograd. There are always people running around. Not sure what to tell you, maybe youre getting matched with sweats. Im pretty casual these days, mostly play split-screen with my wife.

I have a K/D hovering around 1.0 and mostly play Kill Confirmed, and I still see games reaching the time limit even on the good maps like Gun Runner and Shoot House. Even in the mode that most encourages rushing, people camp and don't play the objective because they're too scared to die to go grab a tag. I regularly have to pick up 25-30 tags and lead the team in score (usually with a negative K/D in the process) just to give my team a chance to win. I wish I could get into whatever blessed lobbies you're getting into where people are "always running around".
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Holy fuck I got my K/D up to a 1.03

Finally above 1.0

And then the shitty fucking skill based matchmaking kicks in next match and I play against a team of campers with proximity mines and claymores so I can't fucking move without dying

DarthAragorn posted...

And then the shitty fucking skill based matchmaking kicks in next match and I play against a team of campers with proximity mines and claymores so I can't fucking move without dying

That's because one of the things that's prioritized highly in the game's skill-based matchmaking is your performance in your last few games. Driftor and XclusiveAce tested the SBMM a lot and found that your actual lifetime stats are barely factored in and it's mostly based on your recent games. So if you ever feel like you're stuck in an endless loop of doing good for 3 or 4 games and then getting bodied for 3 or 4 games, that's why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUcb58WDtVA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcUzLHhdaKg

I spent 4-5 hours leveling up the .357 Magnum to level 29 to get the Snake Shot attachment that turns it from trash into a godly weapon, and it tanked my K/D in the process. The very first game after I put the Snake Shot attachment on the gun, I went 44-3 because the SBMM put me against a full lobby of Timmy No Thumbs based on how shit I was playing the previous few games with the base gun. All I wanted to do was level up a terrible gun, but after that game I realized: it was like I was reverse-boosting to trick the SBMM into putting me against weaker opponents, but I did it by accident.
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Yeah I've been averaging like a 2.0 playing tonight

So fuck me, right

Yeah I played today and no this sucks

The only game I've ever played where I feel like I'm being punished for playing well

There are just too many wide sight lines where a camper can sit, with only one way TO the camper which is usually guarded by explosives and if that doesn't get you, the camper (who's not moving) can hear your footsteps over RPGs going off.

But its only certain maps where it's really bad. In objective games it's not as bad, but TDM it's pretty bad.

I still think it's the best COD in years and the gunplay has never felt better.
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the gunplay is indeed great, it just needs better maps and way quieter footsteps/dead silence as a perk

DarthAragorn posted...

the gunplay is indeed great, it just needs better maps and way quieter footsteps/dead silence as a perk

And toning down the strict skill-based matchmaking
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Calwings posted...

DarthAragorn posted...

the gunplay is indeed great, it just needs better maps and way quieter footsteps/dead silence as a perk

And toning down the strict skill-based matchmaking

Oh yeah definitely, holy shit it's bad

Do well for a few games and you'll get placed into matches where everyone uses an M4 and claymores or proximity mines and can hear you coming from half the map away and your only hope is to peek corners harder than they do

It is satisfying to get a long range headshot pop with the EBR against an M4 user.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nTFy7EZago
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Protip, riot shields make you absolutely fucking invincible to anything in front of you, including RPGs and cruise missiles, yeah that makes a lot of fucking sense

DarthAragorn posted...

Protip, riot shields make you absolutely fucking invincible to anything in front of you, including RPGs and cruise missiles, yeah that makes a lot of fucking sense

I've been using the riot shield and the .357 magnum with that snake shot attachment that turns it into a shotgun pistol. It's the only class where I can actually have fun running around full speed and not pLaYiNg TaCtIcAl
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This game is trash
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It honestly is

This is the longest it's ever taken me to reach max level in a CoD, and it's not because leveling up takes a lot of playtime