Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 456: Nobody expects the Undertaker!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Let me just finalize my thoughts on that matter by saying one thing:

WWE may have shrunk but the percentage of their viewerbase that actively attends live events is like... 10% of their fanbase, at best.

So like, "it 'works' because WWE crowds are weird" may make it come off as okay on TV if taken at face value, much like the stupid announcers trying to sell say Becky Lynch as the heel on the broadcast if taken at face value in a vacuum, but not everyone watching at home is going to feel that way. So yeah, it does make Rusev less over than he could be, even if the weird WWE live audiences are still singing along.
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It's 2018. You don't mean So Cal Val. You mean THE SMOKESHOW.
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Lopen posted...

So yeah, it does make Rusev less over than he could be, even if the weird WWE live audiences are still singing along.

I would argue that the burden of proof would be on your end to prove that only live audiences like it, then, and it shouldn't just be presented as a fact that "WWE live audiences are actually out of touch" when on most things, they match up with the overall feeling. Live crowds boo Roman, they cheer Becky, and so on.

If you're going to present "Live audiences are wrong/weird/different" as an argument, you're gonna need some instances of where they have hardcore gone against the grain to back it up.
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Nothing is going to work as "proof" for you anyway

Rusev is getting less and less of a reaction? Has nothing to do with the pairing, it's some other reason you think is better.

You've got a few people in this topic who don't think it's working? Nah we're just negative and not indicative of the audience at large.

I know casual fans who find him annoying? Anecdote, discard.

The gimmick for English is nearly identical to a ton of heel gimmicks, including his debut gimmick? Nah, coincidence.

Audiences are dwindling at a high rate, indicating that these people reacting positively to things may not indicate the entire audience is? Blame Roman or something else.

WWE audiences react positively to a lot of dumb stuff. Roll ups off of being distracted by music still gets a pop. Doesn't mean it's good booking.

But no I can't cite a study that says Aiden English is less over with the fanbase at large than the reactions on TV. Congrats?
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scarletspeed7 posted...

It's 2018. You don't mean So Cal Val. You mean THE SMOKESHOW.

God I hate Scarlett so much.

I just wanna watch Tessa destroy her
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Lopen posted...

But no I can't cite a study that says Aiden English is less over with the fanbase at large than the reactions on TV. Congrats?

I mean, I didn't say you had to

What I said was that if you're going to argue that the live crowds differ so much from WWE fans outside of them, then cite some examples where the live crowds have differed from the prevailing opinion to a notable degree, since that's a pretty large assertion to make without anything backing it up whatsoever.

And yes, I wouldn't really accept "Other people in this topic don't like it so it doesn't work for a face" because most people in this topic aren't WWE fans.
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Rusev getting less of a reaction is because WWE fought for so long to keep him a heel despite all logic and there was a shitty storyline where he kept teasing breaking up with Aiden, and then Aiden stayed with him, making a month and a half pointless, because Rusev did absolutely nothing but this every other Smackdown when he was just fighting for the World Title.

They cool down people constantly because they refuse to just go with it and people get tired of fighting against WWE's shitty booking. That's why Rusev doesn't get cheered as much. And then they're facing the New Day, which is one of their most popular acts. So of course they can't get cheered as much. It's just WWE being WWE and ruining everything people like.

From what I hear, Becky Lynch isn't even getting as much of a reaction because they can't just let her be face like everyone wants. She went from the largest ovation to a decidedly more quiet one after she had to cheap shot Charlotte when she's taking selfies with a random fan. They have to constantly fight back against the crowd and the crowd just gets fatigued. You make them feel like their opinions don't matter, they'll stop speaking up. That's how it goes.
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I don't think the audience reacting positively to anything should be evidence so strong that it overrides everything. It's a copout argument because they react positively to a bunch of stuff you know is stupid. Stuff you can't honestly think is thought as positive by the people at large because otherwise WWE would be doing better. English just gets a pass because you're a Rusev Day fanboy.

Like the New Day gets monster reactions just buffooning around with pancakes for months on end. Does that mean just buffooning around with pancakes is the ideal thing to be doing with them? Can you even be sure that they aren't being hurt whatsoever by pancakes buffoonery? A positive reaction doesn't always mean you're doing good. It could mean you're doing bad but not bad enough to kill the gimmick dead outright.
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How is it more of a copout argument than trying to go "You can't trust the crowds to know if they actually like something or not, man. I have literally nothing to back this up, but you just can't."

Like, I'll literally concede the point if you can give me a few examples of where crowd reaction was markedly different than what the overall fan feelings were.
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Just to be clear agree with you both that it's likely that Rusev's reactions are way lower than a few months ago is not primarily due to Aiden English

But I don't think you can be sure that he's not also doing some damage too, and I certainly don't think "but the audience sings along!!" as if they don't chant 95% of garbage they get encouraged to is any sort of counter argument I should respect either.
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And I don't think "You can't trust crowd opinion, they're always weird and that's not how people not in crowds feel, but I can't actually back that up with anything" is an argument I should respect, either.

Like, you made the argument that Aiden's gig can't work as a face

I made the argument that he's currently face and he's currently over, so saying "it can't work as a face" seems silly

You then tried to tell me "Well live crowds are weird"

So I'm now asking you to give examples of why live crowds are weird/where they have differed from what was the normal opinion

It's not that complicated

You made the assertion that live crowds are 10% of WWE fans and that they differ from the majority. I'd like examples to back it up.
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But the fans loved Aiden's singing even when he was being a jerkface heel. Why would they cheer for something they know is a heel act and thus they should boo if they thought it sucked and was boring too?
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StealThisSheen posted...

Like, I'll literally concede the point if you can give me a few examples of where crowd reaction was markedly different than what the overall fan feelings were.

Every roll-up finish ever.

Most part timer returns in general pop the crowd pretty hard but I feel like they're way more hit or miss to people who aren't there.

People like Konnan, Val Venis, and Road Dogg you'd think were the most over guys on the roster if you believe audiences singing along matters, but how many big fans did you know personally?

Bray Wyatt was getting people singing the whole world in his hands pretty well well after crowd reaction as a whole was starting to sour on him
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StealThisSheen posted...

I made the argument that he's currently face and he's currently over, so saying "it can't work as a face" seems silly

Have you watched Aiden English matches?

He is not over.

Crowd reaction starts and ends with the sing along. His matches are dead.
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I was a huge Konnan fan in WCW as were most of my friends.

Just saying.
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Lopen posted...

Most part timer returns in general pop the crowd pretty hard but I feel like they're way more hit or miss to people who aren't there.

I mean you guys ate it up whenever Lesnar did anything once every six months while I hated it the entire time so I'm not sure I can buy this one
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Speaking of Konnan Friggin Friggin Ortiz just pulled a flip flop out of pocket and beat a man with it.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

But the fans loved Aiden's singing even when he was being a jerkface heel. Why would they cheer for something they know is a heel act and thus they should boo if they thought it sucked and was boring too?

Because the shows have been unbelievably dull and have failed to deliver satisfying upper card faces consistently for a long period of time
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Konnan and New Age Outlaws were very over

What are you talking about
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I'm not saying they weren't over

I'm saying they weren't the most over guys on the roster like their massive sing alongs (which dwarf the Rusev day response) would imply
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I'd argue NAO were a lot closer than you seem to be giving them credit for, atleast
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Lopen, I'll be honest dude. I usually understand your arguments.

But I absolutely cannot follow anything you've been talking about and that post has me baffled why any of that is being discussed.
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We've gone really far off on a tangent

I'm saying Aiden English and Rusev are both being hurt by Aiden English's gimmick, and that it's a heel gimmick by design.

I don't think the audience reacting to a sing along segment is a good counter argument because

A. It can be over on existing momentum from the act
B. The WWE audience cheers a lot of weird stuff that isn't nearly as over with the people as a whole because a lot of things are more interesting in person

We've veered into Aiden English being over (he isn't really, btw, going off his singles appearances that don't involve sing along) but that's not what the point really was to begin with.
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Eh, to be fair, he rarely has singles appearances, and his last one was during the stupid faux breakup storyline that people were against to begin with

There are several instances recently I can find on Youtube where it shows him walking backstage alone for a segment and the crowd starts chanting Rusev Day, and they popped for him when he showed up to help against Almas. so he's definitely over as part of the team/unit.
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I have a hard time seeing how English is a detriment to Rusev when English basically is the entire gimmick. Take him away and Rusev Day is Rusev smiling, saying one line every other week and working matches, with the entire "character" being that he wears a shirt with his slogan on it. English' singing hype promos and their back and forth is basically the entire gimmick
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Panthera posted...

Take him away and Rusev Day is Rusev smiling, saying one line every other week and working matches, with the entire "character" being that he wears a shirt with his slogan on it

Yep

I think Rusev cutting a happy smiling promo on his opponent every week about how he's going to crush them or whatever would get him more over than English's sing along does
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I don't see Rusev losing the thing that actually sets him apart from everyone else and becoming Generic Jerry helping much much.
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So you think taking away Rusev Day and making him Bobby Lashley #2 would help him?

I bet next you'll say he should tell a story about his sisters
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Rusev Day got over before Aiden English was singing about it, mostly due to Rusev shouting about RUSEV DAYYYY like an idiot. Saying Aiden English is what makes the act is revisionist's history based on the somehow still living horse being beaten so long.
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This topic is making me hate Rusev Day
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Lopen posted...

Rusev Day got over before Aiden English was singing about it, mostly due to Rusev shouting about RUSEV DAYYYY like an idiot. Saying Aiden English is what makes the act is revisionist's history based on the somehow still living horse being beaten so long.

Aiden English was part of it literally from the beginning when Rusev had him introduce him and sing the anthem during the "Pride of Bulgaria" segment where "Rusev Day" first started, and was in segments with Rusev off and on from that point regularly until they became an official team.

Nobody is saying it got over because of him, but he was definitely a big part of it, and I'd actually say it would have died by now if it was JUST Rusev saying it, because them having Aiden involved is what made it feel like an actual thing instead of Rusev just saying it while he jobbed
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I'm not saying he wasn't there

I'm saying he's not what got the act over. He was not the face of the gimmick at the start, when it was actually hot. He is now that it's on autopilot doing the same thing every week, but not then.
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You do realize that no matter how many times you say things like "when it was actually hot" doesn't change the fact that people still chant "Rusev Day" whenever either one of them is shown on camera, right
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Okay. So are we playing dumb and pretending it's as big a deal as ever then? If so I'll just be over here.
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No, but you're trying to argue dishonestly by implying that it's basically dead and buried

It wasn't even two months ago that "Rusev Day" was literally winning a dueling chant over AJ Styles.

It got quieter over the last month, sure, but I think one would be hard pressed to argue that it wasn't because of the breakup angle and the fact WWE was making it clear they weren't gonna push him
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I wouldn't really say the Rusev/AJ match was indicative of his overall popularity at the time either honestly. Like yeah people really wanted him to win just for the novelty of it and it's not like he was (or is) dead but he was already cooling down pretty hard by that point.

Ironically that was on the same PPV where you jumped on the crowd for crapping on Ziggler/Rollins and called them a bad audience cause you knew better than them
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Lopen posted...

Ironically that was on the same PPV where you jumped on the crowd for crapping on Ziggler/Rollins and called them a bad audience cause you knew better than them

Yes, I did. But I never said "This isn't indicative of what people are feeling," nor did I say I knew better than them. I just said it was an asshole thing to do. That's completely different than what you're trying to argue. The internet was shitting on the match, too, so if anything, it's another example of the crowd agreeing with the general sentiment of the time!

And if you're seriously going to try to argue that Rusev wasn't over vs. AJ, and people only chanted for the novelty, you're crazy. They wouldn't chant him over AJ Styles of all people if that were the case.
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StealThisSheen posted...

The internet was shitting on the match, too, so if anything, it's another example of the crowd agreeing with the general sentiment of the time!

... it was? Pretty sure general sentiment was "this match is good and these guys deserve better but the audience is ruining it." I mean you had some people saying it was a poorly booked feud (and it was) and it was stupid to have an iron man match with the current build (and it was) but I think the majority of the people said the audience was crap and they should never run a show there again.
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Lopen posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

The internet was shitting on the match, too, so if anything, it's another example of the crowd agreeing with the general sentiment of the time!

... it was? Pretty sure general sentiment was "this match is good and these guys deserve better but the audience is ruining it." I mean you had some people saying it was a poorly booked feud (and it was) and it was stupid to have an iron man match with the current build (and it was) but I think the majority of the people said the audience was crap and they should never run a show there again.

No way. It was like me and one or two other people trying to say that while everybody else was like "The crowd paid, they can do whatever they want, and they had no reason to think this match was good!" I even Googled around trying to see if other places felt how I did and most of them were agreeing with you guys because everybody hated Ziggler at the time.
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Wait what people hate Ziggler now?

How out of touch am I with the internet wrestling community. I mean I know Alvarez hated him and people had cooled down on him since the day he was the smark favorite but I wasn't aware he was hated currently.
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Iunno if they still do now, but at the time they did

It was a mix of "Bad/no build" and "Ugh Ziggler"

Hell, Eddv was a big one in the corner of saying neither Rollins nor Ziggler should be anywhere near a main event! Most people just said the latter.
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Honestly I still only think it deserved to be buried because of the card positioning. And not because Rollins or Ziggler shouldn't main event as much as the feud shouldn't and no one wants to have a match that can't possibly go less than 30 minutes in the final slot of a 4 hour PPV.

Rusev/AJ should've main evented that.

And I wasn't saying Rusev wasn't over on that show, just I was saying he wasn't hot at the time. Like if you'd given him the title it wouldn't have felt natural, but I think a few months before that it actually could have. That's not to say people wouldn't have been happy to see him win the title, but it wasn't the perfect time for it and I think he would've felt closer to a Rey Mysterio (that underdog that was cute to see win but never really felt like a real world champion) fluke champ than a Mick Foley (that underdog that basically had his career cemented by winning it when he did, even with a brief reign) fluke champ.
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I disagree that he wasn't hot, since not long before that people were going crazy wanting him to win MitB

Any lapses Rusev had in overness were from not being pushed. Any time it was even hinted that he'd be pushed, he was definitely hot
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Lopen posted...

I wouldn't really say the Rusev/AJ match was indicative of his overall popularity at the time either honestly

What is indicative of his popularity? Chants when he's getting a bit of a push don't matter, chants when he's not getting as much of a push don't matter, chants when he's getting a bit of a mid card push don't matter, etc. Like there doesn't seem to be anything that would ever suggest he's actually as over as it seems to you, any reaction is always just mysteriously way beyond what the people giving it feel
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His chants during the build for the AJ Styles match were much less than the chants during the actual match is the thing. Everyone in a world title match that isn't expected to be there is going to get the audience more into it than they would normally. If Rusev got a title match when he was huge, it wouldn't be a dueling chant he would be winning the chants commandingly.

Rusev hasn't really been hot since like Wrestlemania. Like yeah he still gets chants. But he used to get much stronger chants. All chants are not equal. Hulk Hogan at the height of Hulkamania is not the same as Hulk Hogan during 1993.

You guys either don't listen to the audience or you're being intentionally obtuse. Not sure which.
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Lopen posted...

His chants during the build for the AJ Styles match were much less than the chants during the actual match is the thing.

You're completely wrong on that, since the dueling chant I specifically mentioned, where he was actually winning, was in a Smackdown segment.
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Like seriously. Remember when people used to chant Rusev Day when Rusev wasn't even on the screen?
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Lopen posted...

You guys either don't listen to the audience or you're being intentionally obtuse. Not sure which.

The people who assume that the audience reactions are reflective of their thoughts are the ones being obtuse rather than the one who keeps saying "No, they don't actually like that, they didn't actually mean that, they didn't represent anyone else, it can't be for that reason" because he knows a couple of people who don't like English and figures that must mean Aiden English is responsible for literally everyone liking Rusev less?
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Panthera posted...

figures that must mean Aiden English is responsible for literally everyone liking Rusev less?

Never said that. Thought you were better than the "put words in the other guy's mouth" type.
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Not to jump in mid-argument but yeah Ziggler has lost his smark-darling card for a while now. He's largely considered a solid hand but his initial heel turn wasn't well received and his "quitting" was terribly handled.

Basically this ain't 2013-2014 Ziggler.
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