Current Events > Trump Administration to Rescind Obama Guidelines on Race in College Admissions

(+) Yeah! (+)

TaZa92 posted...

There are literal loose "quota" systems for internal companies though. HR sets policies that they wants at least "X% of under-represented minorities" (it's usually a minimum 30%) in specific regions and even host recruiting events for such and I know this for a fact.

Glad HR at various companies are independent from each other and therefore not representative of each other, never mind universities!
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COVxy posted...

TaZa92 posted...

There are literal loose "quota" systems for internal companies though. HR sets policies that they wants at least "X% of under-represented minorities" (it's usually a minimum 30%) in specific regions and even host recruiting events for such and I know this for a fact.

Glad HR at various companies are independent from each other and therefore not representative of each other, never mind universities!

But it is easier to get admitted at universities or hired at companies if you're an underrepresented minority. In many cases this is fair imo because they might've grown up with less connections and less advantages overall.

That's why I think it should just be moved towards an income based system instead of race. It shouldn't be allowed to make decisions based on race for things such as this.
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TaZa92 posted...

An affirmative action type system based on income, rather than race, would be way more beneficial and would still help many of the underrepresented minorities and others who really started the race of life with a 30 second delay behind everyone else.

Even with AA black people are less likely to get job , compared to a white person with the same qualifications.
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TaZa92 posted...

But it is easier to get admitted at universities or hired at companies if you're an underrepresented minority. In many cases this is fair imo because they might've grown up with less connections and less advantages overall.

That's why I think it should just be moved towards an income based system instead of race. It shouldn't be allowed to make decisions based on race for things such as this.

But you would agree that race is going to be a good heuristic for intial sorting for life circumstance, no?

The current "bias" in race in admittance "just so happens" to be directly correlated to average life circumstance. Seems like the system is working to me.
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cjsdowg posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

BWLurker posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

BWLurker posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

FrisbeeDude posted...

because it furthers perpetuates the educational divide between haves and have nots. want equal guidelines for college admissions? level the playing field in primary and secondary education, but Wh-, I'm sorry, "Trumps" america doesn't seem nearly as willing to have that discussion...I wonder why

So why not base admissions on family income instead of race

Why not?

That's what I'm asking. If you want to give help to the have-nots then why would you have a system based on race where kids from wealthy black families have an advantage over poor people of other races

I'm agreeing with you. Why has such a system not been proposed?

Because Democrats need the black and hispanic vote and that kind of move would appear like a betrayal.

A white high school droop out has the same chance of getting a job as black kid with college.
A white criminal has the same chance of getting a job as black guy with no record if everything else is even.

YOU HAVE THE ADVANTAGE ALL READY.

That is 980% bullshit. If you have "blips" on your background check or have to check that yes box you might as well use that application/resume as toilet paper before you hand it in. Don't be obtuse in your pursuit of validation for your narrative.

As for the other part, maybe blame the ridiculous push to have degrees in the first place as a devaluation on value of general college? Unless that job you're applying for is a specialized field, that degree gets you an extra half second glance at best, and can eliminate you from the running at worst.
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Darksaber310 posted...

That is 980% bulls***. If you have "blips" on your background check or have to check that yes box you might as well use that application/resume as toilet paper before you hand it in. Don't be obtuse in your pursuit of validation for your narrative.

I have cited studies that show this.

Would like another one ?

https://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/posts/researchers-examine-effects-of-a-criminal-record-on-prospects-for-employment/

White men with a criminal record had more positive responses than black men with no criminal record.

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cjsdowg posted...

Darksaber310 posted...

That is 980% bulls***. If you have "blips" on your background check or have to check that yes box you might as well use that application/resume as toilet paper before you hand it in. Don't be obtuse in your pursuit of validation for your narrative.

I have cited studies that show this.

Would like another one ?

https://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/posts/researchers-examine-effects-of-a-criminal-record-on-prospects-for-employment/

White men with a criminal record had more positive responses than black men with no criminal record.

60 people, dude.
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darkjedilink posted...

60 people, dude.

Harping on sample size without any argumentation isn't actually a valid criticism.
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COVxy posted...

TaZa92 posted...

But it is easier to get admitted at universities or hired at companies if you're an underrepresented minority. In many cases this is fair imo because they might've grown up with less connections and less advantages overall.

That's why I think it should just be moved towards an income based system instead of race. It shouldn't be allowed to make decisions based on race for things such as this.

But you would agree that race is going to be a good heuristic for intial sorting for life circumstance, no?

The current "bias" in race in admittance "just so happens" to be directly correlated to average life circumstance. Seems like the system is working to me.

To a certain point yes but as someone who's South Asian I faced a lot of racism growing up after 9/11 from all kinds of people - to the extent where even certain teachers treated myself and my mom (who wore a hijab) with pretty clear racism relative to how they acted with everyone else.

On top of that I grew up low income as I mentioned earlier and now I'm hit with the "wrong" side of AA where I'm automatically discriminated against because people of my race tend to score very highly academically as well and I'm competing with them instead of the general populous as a whole.

So my point is we should be helping each other in the right way. Saying AA should exist in its exact form is completely racist because you're saying "oh it's fine to discriminate against Asian Americans despite their upbringings" which isn't okay at all and I think you can agree to that.

I want everyone who had to start off with heavy disadvantages to be given some priority, regardless if they're white, black, Hispanic, Asian, native, etc. Let's stop bucketing ourselves in that way because it's only pinning us against each other.
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As a disadvantaged white person, I got into a college that was above my credentials, and got a full ride for underrepresented individuals in science. I think you over estimate the issues.
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COVxy posted...

As a disadvantaged white person, I got into a college that was above my credentials, and got a full ride for underrepresented individuals in science. I think you over estimate the issues.

but u r scientist.

u r supposed to use empirical data over anecdotes
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foreveraIone posted...

COVxy posted...

As a disadvantaged white person, I got into a college that was above my credentials, and got a full ride for underrepresented individuals in science. I think you over estimate the issues.

but u r scientist.

u r supposed to use empirical data over anecdotes

Yeah, and the empirical evidence suggest disparities in entrance credentials fall along the lines of circumstantial disadvantage. When that didn't convince him, I used my own anecdote to parallel his.
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COVxy posted...

As a disadvantaged white person, I got into a college that was above my credentials, and got a full ride for underrepresented individuals in science. I think you over estimate the issues.

It's not overestimated at all though. I did pretty well for myself too but that doesn't mean there isn't a massive issue here.

There are countless studies of Asian Americans being discriminated at universities and when searching for employment (more recently Harvard and Google aka the cream of the crop in their respective domains) where every single tiny disadvantage against you is major and shouldn't exist if it's unfair.

You're practically just rolling your eyes at this while essentially saying "who cares" in every single one of your responses and you don't see why that's not right? Just because Asian Americans face discrimination it's all of a sudden not a big deal?
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COVxy posted...

foreveraIone posted...

COVxy posted...

As a disadvantaged white person, I got into a college that was above my credentials, and got a full ride for underrepresented individuals in science. I think you over estimate the issues.

but u r scientist.

u r supposed to use empirical data over anecdotes

Yeah, and the empirical evidence suggest disparities in entrance credentials fall along the lines of circumstantial disadvantage. When that didn't convince him, I used my own anecdote to parallel his.

But you literally didn't show any evidence at all while I can bring up countless amounts of evidence to show actual discrimination against Asian Americans.

In fact your entire attitude in this debate has been racist.
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TaZa92 posted...

COVxy posted...

As a disadvantaged white person, I got into a college that was above my credentials, and got a full ride for underrepresented individuals in science. I think you over estimate the issues.

It's not overestimated at all though. I did pretty well for myself too but that doesn't mean there isn't a massive issue here.

There are countless studies of Asian Americans being discriminated at universities and when searching for employment (more recently Harvard and Google aka the cream of the crop in their respective domains) where every single tiny disadvantage against you is major and shouldn't exist if it's unfair.

You're practically just rolling your eyes at this while essentially saying "who cares" in every single one of your responses and you don't see why that's not right? Just because Asian Americans face discrimination it's all of a sudden not a big deal?

They don't face "discrimination", not in the systematic sense in which you are supposing they do.

Again, these metrics of disparity in entrance credentials follow along with metrics of disadvantageness. You are saying "well, some Asians are poor and are getting screwed!" but you have absolutely no evidence of that.
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TaZa92 posted...

But you literally didn't show any evidence at all while I can bring up countless amounts of evidence to show actual discrimination against Asian Americans.

You want me to show you that Asian Americans are on average more well off than black people, etc?

It's so easy to see that population levels of disparity here are correlated with the disparity in credentials. Why don't you google population statistics on household income?
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Good.
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COVxy posted...

You want me to show you that Asian Americans are on average more well off than black people, etc?

It's so easy to see that population levels of disparity here are correlated with the disparity in credentials. Why don't you google population statistics on household income?

the problem with this argument is that you are generalizing people who come from half the worlds population with one word.

there are different ethnic groups with various levels of income and its not fair to say hmong refugees that they fall under "asian"
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foreveraIone posted...

the problem with this argument is that you are generalizing people who come from half the worlds population with one word.

there are different ethnic groups with various levels of income and its not fair to say hmong refugees that they fall under "asian"

Right, but is there any evidence of this actually fucking anyone over, other than assumptions based on quota systems?

In reality, any application process is extremely random, and what makes it even possible to get through is sorting heuristics to make initial order. I would bet money on the fact that people aren't coming up with different criteria for different races. Or generating quota systems. Neither of these would make the process any easier.

In the end, in any application process, some small number of people are going to get screwed because of the lack of precision and the inherent randomness to the process. Demonstrate that this is along racial lines, and then we've got something more to talk about.
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Wait, shouldn't college just look at things like grades, standardized test scores, and after school activities?

Why does race even matter? Or are some people saying that people of certain races are dumb and need a handicap? Isn't that more racist than just basing it off of things more objective like grades?

Bacon_Pancakes posted...

Wait, shouldn't college just look at things like grades, standardized test scores, and after school activities?

No, life circumstances are important, arguably more so than any of those metrics. Race though can be argued to be fairly independent of those things.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

Bacon_Pancakes posted...

Wait, shouldn't college just look at things like grades, standardized test scores, and after school activities?

No, life circumstances are important, arguably more so than any of those metrics. Race though can be argued to be fairly independent of those things.

Lol, really?

In what world?
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COVxy posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

Bacon_Pancakes posted...

Wait, shouldn't college just look at things like grades, standardized test scores, and after school activities?

No, life circumstances are important, arguably more so than any of those metrics. Race though can be argued to be fairly independent of those things.

Lol, really?

In what world?

This one.

Are you going to make a topic next about how neanderthal DNA is absent in Africans?
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P4wn4g3 posted...

COVxy posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

Bacon_Pancakes posted...

Wait, shouldn't college just look at things like grades, standardized test scores, and after school activities?

No, life circumstances are important, arguably more so than any of those metrics. Race though can be argued to be fairly independent of those things.

Lol, really?

In what world?

This one.

Are you going to make a topic next about how neanderthal DNA is absent in Africans?

You think race is independent of life circumstances?

I mean, they are literally statistically dependent.
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COVxy posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

COVxy posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

Bacon_Pancakes posted...

Wait, shouldn't college just look at things like grades, standardized test scores, and after school activities?

No, life circumstances are important, arguably more so than any of those metrics. Race though can be argued to be fairly independent of those things.

Lol, really?

In what world?

This one.

Are you going to make a topic next about how neanderthal DNA is absent in Africans?

You think race is independent of life circumstances?

I mean, they are literally statistically dependent.

Not entirely, but for simplicity's sake let's go with yes.
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Is race even real or did we make it up? If we apply certain conditions to certain "races" isn't it being more racist? I feel like giving any attention to these so called differences is just going to lead to a slippery slope

Like, why not look at people as individuals rather than "I'm Bob, I'm a black lesbian freelance farmer who's on parole for singin' soul" like why can't they just be "Bob the singer with sick rhymes"

P4wn4g3 posted...

Not entirely, but for simplicity's sake let's go with yes.

But they aren't independent. They are literally dependent. You can predict one from the other at the population level...
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COVxy posted...

darkjedilink posted...

60 people, dude.

Harping on sample size without any argumentation isn't actually a valid criticism.

Are you really going to claim that a study involving 60 people is representative of the entire country?

Because unless you are, it proves nothing other than the race-bait biases of the publisher of the study.
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darkjedilink posted...

COVxy posted...

darkjedilink posted...

60 people, dude.

Harping on sample size without any argumentation isn't actually a valid criticism.

Are you really going to claim that a study involving 60 people is representative of the entire country?

Because unless you are, it proves nothing other than the race-bait biases of the publisher of the study.

Yes, a sample size of 60 can indeed produce reliable estimates of a population value.
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This is about the only thing I'll support those right wing shitheads on.

Affirmative Action needs to fuck right off. I'm tired of lazy idiots playing the race card and getting put in ahead of qualified, useful people.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

Bacon_Pancakes posted...

Wait, shouldn't college just look at things like grades, standardized test scores, and after school activities?

No, life circumstances are important, arguably more so than any of those metrics. Race though can be argued to be fairly independent of those things.

Life circumstances should not factor in either
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darkjedilink posted...

Why do lefties think that the solution to racism in America is more racism in America?

why do rightists think that the solution to racism is to do nothing, and that it will just correct itself magically?

COVxy posted...

TaZa92 posted...

But you literally didn't show any evidence at all while I can bring up countless amounts of evidence to show actual discrimination against Asian Americans.

You want me to show you that Asian Americans are on average more well off than black people, etc?

It's so easy to see that population levels of disparity here are correlated with the disparity in credentials. Why don't you google population statistics on household income?

But my entire argument is that it should be an income based affirmative action policy instead of race which would make more sense, no? We're both kind of saying the same thing in that regard.

In fact, you just argued my exact point in that last post.
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Fam_Fam posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Why do lefties think that the solution to racism in America is more racism in America?

why do rightists think that the solution to racism is to do nothing, and that it will just correct itself magically?

I'm not rightest or leftist particularly (I'm more socially leftist overall) but what are you thoughts on an income based Affirmative Action policy then like I was arguing above.
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COVxy posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

Not entirely, but for simplicity's sake let's go with yes.

But they aren't independent. They are literally dependent. You can predict one from the other at the population level...

Frankly I'm skeptical of that and would rather just go off life circumstance. And at any rate you are talking about the median. Let's not cater to the average individual in every single situation please.
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TaZa92 posted...

But my entire argument is that it should be an income based affirmative action policy instead of race which would make more sense, no? We're both kind of saying the same thing in that regard.

In fact, you just argued my exact point in that last post.

It's not that I disagree, just that I find use in race as a proxy variable to sort through applications. It also does, to be clear, encode other potential issues such as experienced racism/societal expectations that could lead to differences in performance. So not only does it encode income based inequality (which, likely is a major proportion of the important variance), but also biases in society that are often encoded by race as well. At the social services office the social worker told me that my kind of person wasn't the kind that should go to college. I can only imagine what it's like for a PoC in that circumstance.

I think you are being intentionally dense here, along with the other poster, and simply pretending like race isn't actually an important factor that predicts circumstance and life outcomes (probably above and beyond income too due to cultural factors).
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P4wn4g3 posted...

Let's not cater to the average individual in every single situation please.

That's not what's happening here to begin with.
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COVxy posted...

TaZa92 posted...

But my entire argument is that it should be an income based affirmative action policy instead of race which would make more sense, no? We're both kind of saying the same thing in that regard.

In fact, you just argued my exact point in that last post.

It's not that I disagree, just that I find use in race as a proxy variable to sort through applications. It also does, to be clear, encode other potential issues such as experienced racism/societal expectations that could lead to differences in performance. So not only does it encode income based inequality (which, likely is a major proportion of the important variance), but also biases in society that are often encoded by race as well. At the social services office the social worker told me that my kind of person wasn't the kind that should go to college. I can only imagine what it's like for a PoC in that circumstance.

I think you are being intentionally dense here, along with the other poster, and simply pretending like race isn't actually an important factor that predicts circumstance and life outcomes (probably above and beyond income too due to cultural factors).

I mean I totally see what you're saying with the biases people have towards others of certain racial backgrounds, and yes I do agree with how "people will become what they're expected to become." There is an actual psychological term for this which I don't recall (if people assume you will fail, you are inherently more likely to fail).

I think my argument is that an income based affirmative action would cover "more bases" in the right way rather than the current racially based one. Many of the underrepresented minorities would be helped, but the ones growing up privileged and wealthy wouldn't take away spots from those of the "over-represented" population that most likely faced more adversity due to a low income upbringing.

I believe your main counter argument to this would be that I'm making an assumption that a low income white/Asian individual faces more adversity than a middle/upper class underrepresented minority. You would be correct in that it is indeed an assumption, but I can try to find statistics to back this up?
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Time to find a new way to accumulate $500k+ of debt.

Was this the last remnant of institutionalized racism?
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Fam_Fam posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Why do lefties think that the solution to racism in America is more racism in America?

why do rightists think that the solution to racism is to do nothing, and that it will just correct itself magically?

Because throughout human history that is exactly what happened. Things were moving along great until the regressive left created identity politics and reversed progress decades to pre-civil rights levels. This is really a first for all of American history.

Annihilated posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Why do lefties think that the solution to racism in America is more racism in America?

why do rightists think that the solution to racism is to do nothing, and that it will just correct itself magically?

Because throughout human history that is exactly what happened. Things were moving along great until the regressive left created identity politics and reversed progress decades to pre-civil rights levels. This is really a first for all of American history.

I love how right wingers pretend that they don't play with identity politics themselves, it's hilarious.
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