Poll of the Day > Why is the president kidnapping children?

(+) Yeah! (+)

"The democrats are forcing us to steal kids, because they won't let us put up a wall! If illegal immigrants didn't come here in the first place, which a wall would totally stop, we wouldn't be forced to take their children, so it's totally the dems fault!"
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Jen0125 posted...

The part about them being responsible for separating families or being responsible for the laws that would call for separating families.

The adults are getting deported and the children are being forced to stay here until the Democrats agree to put everything from that tweet in an immigration bill.

Okay.

But that's still not what I was talking about.

I was talking about how it would also be dangerous to just cram all the children in the same facility as the adults when that facility is probably worse then the one for the kids, and with no documentation, there is no way to tell who's kids belong to who. Everyone is probably hysterical in that situation, especially the kids, are you supposed to let whoever grabs a crying kid keep them? Do parents get a free pass to leave or better treatment because they have kids, if that was the case you would actually encourage kidnappings within the people attempting to illegally cross the border.
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Golden Road posted...

"The democrats are forcing us to steal kids, because they won't let us put up a wall! If illegal immigrants didn't come here in the first place, which a wall would totally stop, we wouldn't be forced to take their children, so it's totally the dems fault!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/250975772083380226

Obama's complaints about Republicans stopping his agenda are BS since he had full control for two years. He can never take responsibility.

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Zikten posted...

the news is OBSESSED with this

It must be fake then.
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Mexico are the ones letting them through the southern border, let them stay down there, parents and kids together.
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Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

Mexico are the ones letting them through the southern border, let them stay down there, parents and kids together.

Countries locking their own citizens in isn't really something to be encouraged.
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adjl posted...

Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

Mexico are the ones letting them through the southern border, let them stay down there, parents and kids together.

Countries locking their own citizens in isn't really something to be encouraged.

They arent from Mexico, they are coming through Mexico from the south.
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Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

adjl posted...

Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

Mexico are the ones letting them through the southern border, let them stay down there, parents and kids together.

Countries locking their own citizens in isn't really something to be encouraged.

They arent from Mexico, they are coming through Mexico from the south.

Oh those. I still wouldn't say it's Mexico's place to decide who's allowed to leave.
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Not even close to the same thing as kidnapping, but this is pretty much the caliber of #fakenews floating around these days. The same crowd who scoffed at reports of FEMA death camps under Obama would swallow it whole if it was claimed that Trump was doing it.
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Zeus posted...

Not even close to the same thing as kidnapping,

Taking children against their will and imprisoning them? About the only way it doesn't qualify as kidnapping is because it's legal.
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adjl posted...

Zeus posted...

Not even close to the same thing as kidnapping,

Taking children against their will and imprisoning them? About the only way it doesn't qualify as kidnapping is because it's legal.

You literally have a better case against CPS than you do against this. Are you blasting CPS?
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Does CPS put children in cages?
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adjl posted...

Does CPS put children in cages?

Because apparently it's not kidnapping unless a cage is used! Overlooking that CPS *has* occasionally restrained children and locked up runners, CPS involves taking children from non-criminal parents which is far closer to kidnapping (although still not quite there) then children who get separated from their criminal parents because their criminal parents are taken into incarceration. Which, by the way, is the kind of placement that has to happen when US citizen criminal parents are imprisoned.
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Undocumented border crossing is a misdemeanor offense in the United States.

Just a quick note for everybody. Carry on.

yeah the funny thing is instead of separating the families they could just deport the whole family like they've been doing instead of creating some imaginary border crisis and dehumanizing these people who are trying to come to america because their countries are a complete shitshow and they are seeking asylum
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Jen0125 posted...

yeah the funny thing is instead of separating the families they could just deport the whole family like they've been doing instead of creating some imaginary border crisis and dehumanizing these people who are trying to come to america because their countries are a complete shitshow and they are seeking asylum

Seriously.

Just deport the kids along w/ their parents.

Jen0125 posted...

I'll correct you because you're wrong. Straight from the asshole's mouth.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1007671131841671169

AND he's blaming it on the democrats because they aren't including ALL of that bullshit in an immigration bill. So he's holding the kids hostage because the democrats won't do exactly what he wants them to do.

"Alt US Cyber Command

AltCyberCommand
Jun 15
Replying to @realDonaldTrump
stop smoking methamphetamine"

Lmfao
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Jen0125 posted...

yeah the funny thing is instead of separating the families they could just deport the whole family like they've been doing instead of creating some imaginary border crisis and dehumanizing these people who are trying to come to america because their countries are a complete shitshow and they are seeking asylum

And what if the parents have committed crimes in the US other than crossing the border illegally?

OhhhJa posted...

Jen0125 posted...

yeah the funny thing is instead of separating the families they could just deport the whole family like they've been doing instead of creating some imaginary border crisis and dehumanizing these people who are trying to come to america because their countries are a complete shitshow and they are seeking asylum

And what if the parents have committed crimes in the US other than crossing the border illegally?

Deport them like they always have. This has never been an issue until now. They would send the children to relatives back in the home country not send them to live in a cage in an abandoned Walmart.
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Jen0125 posted...

I don't know how TreGooda can deny it's happening when Donald Trump has said he's using the children as a bargaining tool to get funding for the border wall.

This is key. If Trump wasn't a sack of shit, he could stop this any time he wanted. But he's using children as leverage for his stupid wall that Mexico is most certainly paying for. Just like the DACA business.
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Jen0125 posted...

Any blaming of democrats is a lie as has been proven by a leaked memo from 2017 by Jeff Sessions which directs ICE to start separating the parents from their children. So it's not Democratic legislation.

And the second half of your sentence is a really big stretch. I'm not sure how you could read that part of his tweet as that at all.

Yeah but...here's the thing...This ain't exactly new.

http://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5
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Please understand...
He is making America great again!
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Smarkil posted...

Jen0125 posted...

Any blaming of democrats is a lie as has been proven by a leaked memo from 2017 by Jeff Sessions which directs ICE to start separating the parents from their children. So it's not Democratic legislation.

And the second half of your sentence is a really big stretch. I'm not sure how you could read that part of his tweet as that at all.

Yeah but...here's the thing...This ain't exactly new.

http://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5

Read the article. It explains exactly how this is a new way that people are being handled that started with this administration. Nothing about the law requires people to be treated this way.
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Zikten posted...

I'm starting to think this is going to doom him. I don't know that people will reelect him after this

hmb

Doctor Foxx posted...

Read the article. It explains exactly how this is a new way that people are being handled that started with this administration. Nothing about the law requires people to be treated this way.

But they have been treated this way for apparently years now, including under the previous administration. The only difference now is in separating children from their 'parents' which I don't necessarily see as a bad thing. I find your statement somewhat ironic when most people are pointing out the deplorable conditions, whereas you seem to be okay with them.

It's pretty common practice when presented with a situation of a potential kidnapping/trafficking situation to separate the child from the would-be traffickers. Separate them and give the child time to calm down. They're often told shit like, 'If you tell them, we'll kill your parents' and what not.

Separate the child, verify the story and any documents that they might be carrying, then send them on their way with their parents. If they can't be verified, then it takes time to investigate where the child came from. Especially from governments with ineffective or uncooperative documentation.

The conditions they're being held in are gross, and the failure in processing is also terrible, but the idea is not.
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Smarkil posted...

But they have been treated this way for apparently years now, including under the previous administration. The only difference now is in separating children from their 'parents' which I don't necessarily see as a bad thing

There has never been a blanket policy for detaining people for the simple act of crossing the border illegally. There was always discretion, and many families would be released once they were processed and told to return at a later date for a court appearance. People who were caught at the border with drugs or evidence of some other illegal activity would be detained, but most people, especially families, would be released. Often no one would make their court appearance, which was an issue Obama's administration had actually tried to address, but Obama's administration deemed it was too cruel to separate children from their families and opted for catch-and-release, essentially punting the issue down the road for someone else to handle.

Once upon a time, they would detain families in what was basically modified motels, but a case settlement in the 90s (can't recall the case off the top of my head) deemed that minors could not be detained, they had to be released. The issue we're having is that the wording in the settlement did not specify "unaccompanied" minors, which was the intent. It simply stated minors could not be detained. So, if you want to detain adults for crossing the border illegally (a misdemeanor), you have to separate them from any children traveling with them. And here we are.

There is already a process to validate that children actually belong to those adults crossing the border. To check for potential smuggling or trafficking. The current administration's process is not doing anything more in that regard.

What's funny is that there is, or was at one time not sure if it's still a thing, an expedited process for handling families. If we could detain families together, there is a streamlined process for either vetting or deporting them. However, when you separate the children it creates something of a legal quagmire that can take months to resolve, and costs more money in the end. But, we can't detain children in "criminal" cells... What we could do is implement electronic monitoring. Even the best electronic monitoring would cost a fraction of what detention costs. There are solutions that don't involve violating basic human rights.

Everything Trump is doing can be overturned with a simple phone call. He's using this tactic to bully Congress into voting for his border wall. It's unnecessary and unconscionable. If you don't see an issue with separating children from their parents, potentially for months, then I'm afraid you're unaware of the trauma and damage this can cause to a child's emotional and even physical well-being, or maybe you simply don't care.

This is disgusting what the Trump administration is conducting at our border. It's un-American. It doesn't have to be this way. Trump wants to be tough on immigration, but he doesn't want to accept responsibility for the uglier aspects of what his policies are creating, and mind you, this situation is wholly a result of his policies. Not Obama. Not Bush. Not Clinton. This all rests on Trump's shoulders, and he could end it today.
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Smarkil posted...

But they have been treated this way for apparently years now, including under the previous administration.

The very article you linked explains that such treatment was a necessity due to a large influx of unaccompanied minors, and that they worked around the clock to minimize the amount of time spent there. That's very different from using such facilities for all incoming minors and holding them there for as long as it takes to process the adults they arrived with.
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Well... Trump is the God-Emperor... And sacrifices must be made.
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Smarkil posted...

But they have been treated this way for apparently years now, including under the previous administration.

No, they haven't. They have not been treated the same for years now. Hopefully others explaining this has helped it sink in. This is not the same as it used to be.

If this was what it used to be and people are just now getting mad does it ultimately make that outrage and call for action any less valuable? It does not. These are human beings that have been treated like garbage by the US government.

That doesn't matter as it is clearly and demonstrably not the same way immigrants have been handled in the past.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-s-tent-cities-cost-more-keeping-migrant-kids-n884871

This policy is expensive. $775 a night per child to keep them separated. More than double the cost to keep the family together.

adjl posted...

Smarkil posted...

But they have been treated this way for apparently years now, including under the previous administration.

The very article you linked explains that such treatment was a necessity due to a large influx of unaccompanied minors, and that they worked around the clock to minimize the amount of time spent there. That's very different from using such facilities for all incoming minors and holding them there for as long as it takes to process the adults they arrived with.

Yes. And for years the majority of so-called illegal immigrants have been people legally allowed to enter that overstayed their welcome. Melania

It's not border crossers

For people in dire straights that border is the only option. You have to be on US soil to apply for asylum. So people doing as they always have entering at legal border crossings with their children are now being separated from their children, deported, and may never see their children again.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ice-cant-guarantee-immigrants-will-get-their-kids-back

ICE has no plans to reunite children
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Many of the people who have been arrested and separated from their children are self-described refugees who voluntarily contacted border patrol agents and submitted themselves to request asylum. This means they've committed no crime and in fact the United States arresting them and separating their children is likely an international crime and a human rights violation.

Just another quick note for everybody. Carry on.

Blorfenburger posted...

Zikten posted...

yea people are pissed the hell off about this. Trump is doubling down, and refusing to change the law. even other republicans are yelling at him. if he stays firm on this, I think he's gonna lose the reelection

I doubt it. He can do whatever he wants. He can show up to my house and shoot me and I'll be the one vilified. This is the country we're in. Might as well take it for another 6 years or so

A 42% approval rating doesn't get you re-elected.
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TyVulpine posted...

Blorfenburger posted...

Zikten posted...

yea people are pissed the hell off about this. Trump is doubling down, and refusing to change the law. even other republicans are yelling at him. if he stays firm on this, I think he's gonna lose the reelection

I doubt it. He can do whatever he wants. He can show up to my house and shoot me and I'll be the one vilified. This is the country we're in. Might as well take it for another 6 years or so

A 42% approval rating doesn't get you re-elected.

Are the approval ratings as reliable as the data that suggested Hillary would win in a landslide?

Super soliders

Taking kids from criminals is the perfect way to get what they need
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OhhhJa posted...

TyVulpine posted...

Blorfenburger posted...

Zikten posted...

yea people are pissed the hell off about this. Trump is doubling down, and refusing to change the law. even other republicans are yelling at him. if he stays firm on this, I think he's gonna lose the reelection

I doubt it. He can do whatever he wants. He can show up to my house and shoot me and I'll be the one vilified. This is the country we're in. Might as well take it for another 6 years or so

A 42% approval rating doesn't get you re-elected.

Are the approval ratings as reliable as the data that suggested Hillary would win in a landslide?

The experts underestimated how apathetic Democrat voters were, as most D voters figured Hillary would win so didnt bother to vote. And when you dont vote, you get people like Trump voted into office.
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Truth_Decay posted...

There has never been a blanket policy for detaining people for the simple act of crossing the border illegally. There was always discretion, and many families...

So releasing someone with the expectation that they'll come back for a court appearance rarely ever works. The Trump administration, immigration being one of their main campaign promises, is cracking down on ineffective immigration policies. This doesn't seem illogical. The practice of this might be flawed, but the principle of it doesn't appear to be.

Truth_Decay posted...

Once upon a time, they would detain families in what was basically modified motels, but a case settlement in the 90s (can't recall the case off the top of my head) deemed that minors could not be detained, they had to be released. The issue we're having is that the wording in the settlement did not specify "unaccompanied" minors, which was the intent. It simply stated minors could not be detained. So, if you want to detain adults for crossing the border illegally (a misdemeanor), you have to separate them from any children traveling with them. And here we are.

When I said people were being treated the same way, I meant they were being treated like cattle (IE placed in cages with mats and space blankets). This isn't something that changed under the Trump administration. People were already being treated like that since at least as far back as 2014. Possibly earlier.

But yes, those minors were unaccompanied. These ones aren't. If we had the option of immediately deporting these people to their country of origin, children included, this wouldn't be a problem. But apparently that's unconscionable too. So what choice do you leave the administration? Apparently the only option is to just say 'fuck it' and let them in the country.

Truth_Decay posted...

There is already a process to validate that children actually belong to those adults crossing the border. To check for potential smuggling or trafficking. The current administration's process is not doing anything more in that regard.

And apparently it wasn't all that well executed because it was still being done in spades.

What's funny is that there is, or was at one time not sure if it's still a thing, an expedited process for handling families. If we could detain families together, there is a streamlined process for either vetting or deporting them...

Again, detaining families together can present potential problems when it comes to trafficking. Separating them makes sense. Why they don't have an expedited process for families, or why they can't seem to get their shit together and do it within a few days for each family, I don't know. That needs to be resolved.

As for electronic monitoring, how is that supposed to work? Electronic monitoring for parolees and the like works because the people who are on it are relatively (at least compared to an immigrant) stable. They have a home, which is used for the homepoint for the device. They have a set schedule/location that they'll be in. And in terms of scope, it's relatively few compared to the amount of parole officers to monitor them.

You can't do that on the scale of immigrants. More so because there's virtually no reason for them not to just destroy the device and fuck off.

My only problems with this whole situation are the conditions these people have to live in, and the speed at which they're processing them. Otherwise I don't consider this a human rights violation.
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TreGooda posted...

Zikten posted...

Blorfenburger posted...

What's he doing now

in the past 2 months, 2 thousand children have been forcibly taken from families crossing the southern border into America. some of these parents later end up getting deported.....and their kids are still in detainment here in America. many of the kids can't be found and the system "lost track of them". and they won't let the kids they still have, go or see their parents. I'm guessing either you are not american, or you don't look at the news much. cause for like the past several days, the news is OBSESSED with this. it's the top story in the nation.

You should stop reading fake news.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/06/18/myth-vs-fact-dhs-zero-tolerance-policy

A small loan of a million dollars.

Smarkil posted...

My only problems with this whole situation are the conditions these people have to live in, and the speed at which they're processing them. Otherwise I don't consider this a human rights violation.

Other than the inhumane treatment these people are subject to for extended periods of time, you don't see it as a human rights issue

ok then...

These children are being harmed irreparably for life by this treatment

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/02/20/280237833/orphans-lonely-beginnings-reveal-how-parents-shape-a-childs-brain
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Other than the fact some of these children will never be reunited with their families and thousands have already been lost in the system I see no human rights violation.
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Jesus christ...how the fuck are some you people defending this? Maybe you guys are deplorable.
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Other than children in custody being sent off to be abused while being denied basic comfort, I see no human rights violation

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/texas-deputy-sexually-assaulted-undocumented-immigrant-s-child-sheriff-says-n884176

https://www.texastribune.org/2018/06/20/separated-migrant-children-are-headed-toward-shelters-history-abuse-an/

https://globalnews.ca/news/4284950/trump-babies-young-children-shelters-texas/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-border-families-separation-trump-administration-mexico-children-cages-domestic-abuse-damage-a8405901.html

Seems like these private companies are getting rich. Private "tender-age" shelters (how fucking creepy), private childrens shelters, and private prisons for the adults.
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Once again, I'll mention that these people are either willfully submitting to agents to request asylum, or are committing a misdemeanor. These are hardened criminals who need to be removed to protect their children. They're refugees at best, and minor criminals at worst.

Meanwhile the United States government is being cruel and heartless in a new interpretation of existing law at best, and seriously violating international law and committing human rights violations at worst.

SushiSquid posted...

Once again, I'll mention that these people are either willfully submitting to agents to request asylum, or are committing a misdemeanor. These are hardened criminals who need to be removed to protect their children. They're refugees at best, and minor criminals at worst.

Meanwhile the United States government is being cruel and heartless in a new interpretation of existing law at best, and seriously violating international law and committing human rights violations at worst.

Children of Americans that commit misdemeanors are not taken away and thrown in concentration camps. In fact, there isn't an instance where a child would a child be taken for any misdemeanor. Worth keeping that in mind.
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https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/621798823/speaker-ryan-plans-immigration-votes-amid-doubts-that-bills-can-pass

So now Daddy cam end the policy on his own? Praise the God Emperor!
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https://www.themaven.net/beingliberal/room/9-popular-myths-about-separating-children-from-parents-at-the-us-borders-R8kVov_jJ0SShGU6fTbplg/
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Phantom_Nook posted...

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/621798823/speaker-ryan-plans-immigration-votes-amid-doubts-that-bills-can-pass

So now Daddy cam end the policy on his own? Praise the God Emperor!

"I don't have much hope with the president that he'll do something that's actually good."

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Why not send them back together and build the Great Wall of U.S.A.?

*Not an Israeli alpha fence.

trentpac posted...

Jesus christ...how the fuck are some you people defending this? Maybe you guys are deplorable.

Cognitive dissonance is a terrible thing.
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SushiSquid posted...

Once again, I'll mention that these people are either willfully submitting to agents to request asylum, or are committing a misdemeanor. These are not hardened criminals who need to be removed to protect their children. They're refugees at best, and minor criminals at worst.

Meanwhile the United States government is being cruel and heartless in a new interpretation of existing law at best, and seriously violating international law and committing human rights violations at worst.

I am now seeing based on Foxx's reply that I missed the word "not" in this post. Totally changes the meaning.

I am arguing against this cruel policy and in no way defending it. I've deleted the original post to help with clarity.

SushiSquid posted...

SushiSquid posted...

Once again, I'll mention that these people are either willfully submitting to agents to request asylum, or are committing a misdemeanor. These are not hardened criminals who need to be removed to protect their children. They're refugees at best, and minor criminals at worst.

Meanwhile the United States government is being cruel and heartless in a new interpretation of existing law at best, and seriously violating international law and committing human rights violations at worst.

I am now seeing based on Foxx's reply that I missed the word "not" in this post. Totally changes the meaning.

I am arguing against this cruel policy and in no way defending it. I've deleted the original post to help with clarity.

Yeah, it was clear to me but someone is sure to nitpick.

What everyone needs to ask themselves is if they're OK with the US government putting children in cages. Cages in internment camps, possibly to never see their families again, when these children have done nothing wrong.
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I just realized what trump is doing;

He's kidnapping children to make them build the wall!
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