Poll of the Day > This Southern CONSERVATIVE User has some real beef with Gamefaqs MODS!!!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Error1355 posted...

We explained why it is against our rules. You refusing to accept the answer is not an issue with the GameFAQs moderation staff or GameFAQs ToU.

You explained it went against the PSN EULA, which it doesn't because you do not have to accept that EULA to play an offline game. And I mentioned nothing else but editing an offline save.

It's not an issue with the staff or TOU? That must be why you cannot show me anywhere in your TOU that validates your claim that it is not allowed. Why is it not allowed? It seems more as a subjective opinion of moderation besides a factual TOU violation. If you do not allow something, fair enough man. But put it into your TOU. B

And don't blame someone when they have a legitimate question, because the TOU doesn't cover it.
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We simply do not allow discussion on GameFAQs that would violate any of that console's EULA. Even if you didn't specifically say to upload it or not.

If it violates Sony's PSN EULA, it's not allowed on GameFAQs. If it violates the console EULA, it isn't allowed. I am literally not sure how I can make this any more clear to you.
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Nenjii posted...

"The grass is green"

I am whining about the grass being green.

Nope. But you're whining about being modded in this topic and in your videos.

You're throwing a toddler-like tantrum at this point.
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Error1355 posted...

We simply do not allow discussion on GameFAQs that would violate any of that console's EULA. Even if you didn't specifically say to upload it or not.

If it violates Sony's PSN EULA, it's not allowed on GameFAQs. If it violates the console EULA, it isn't allowed. I am literally not sure how I can make this any more clear to you.

I understand. But I don't know how I can make it any clearer that you do not have to have a PSN agreement to play it. PSN is not a console EULA, it is the EULA for the Playstation Network.

Now if I posted something about save editing a Call of Duty save that is covered under the PSN EULA, I would understand.

THIS is the Playstation 4 EULA:

https://doc.dl.playstation.net/doc/ps4-eula/ps4_eula_en.html

And even nowhere in here does it mention anything about what was discussed here. It only states modifying software. FFX is not owned by Playstation. It is owned by Square Enix. And you are more than welcome to read their EULA, because it mentions nothing of it.
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Nenjii posted...

I understand.

The rest of your post makes it clear you do not. Please re-read post #103 until it makes sense. Thank you.
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helly:1
error:0

Error1355 posted...

Nenjii posted...

I understand.

The rest of your post makes it clear you do not. Please re-read post #103 until it makes sense. Thank you.

That would be you. Because it does not violate it. FFX, single player game. PSN EULA, online game. Playstation EULA, no mention of save editing breaking it. I linked them for you. Show me where.
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Do you have to agree to the EULA to upload saves?
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Error1355 posted...

Edited saves can be uploaded to the cloud which would violate the EULA regardless if you said to or not. Due to that we don't allow any save editing discussion on PS3 and PS4 games. The same holds true on 360 and Xbox One boards.

Yes but I mentioned nothing of uploading to the cloud. You have to remember that I was modded for breaking a rule. And save editing is not breaking a rule. Only uploading to the cloud. So how did I break a rule if I never mentioned it?

I am not trying to be a hard *SS dude. I understand how a company is run, and understand you have to protect your website from being shut down, that is fine.

But you are implying I am breaking a rule because something I said, can be used to break the EULA of PSN if another step is done afterwards. I never offered advice or how to upload to a cloud and never mentioned it.

Update the ToS please, because again, your TOS says nothing of this. And you repeating you "do not allow" this, has no basis. ToS has to also be obeyed by mods. Mods are the very ones who enforce the TOS to the fullest extent. And since the ToS mentions nothing of this, you are enforcing something that isn't in the rules. You did not make the rules. The owner did. So you have no factual right to imply something that was never implied.
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Nenjii posted...

And save editing is not breaking a rule.

Error1355 posted...

Edited saves can be uploaded to the cloud which would violate the EULA regardless if you said to or not. Due to that we don't allow any save editing discussion on PS3 and PS4 games. The same holds true on 360 and Xbox One boards.

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Error1355 posted...

Nenjii posted...

And save editing is not breaking a rule.

Error1355 posted...

Edited saves can be uploaded to the cloud which would violate the EULA regardless if you said to or not. Due to that we don't allow any save editing discussion on PS3 and PS4 games. The same holds true on 360 and Xbox One boards.

Play game > edit save > upload to cloud.

Follow rules. Follow rules. Breaks rules.

Never mentioned cloud. You said I broke a rule that I did not. And you cannot upload to a cloud unless you are a PS+ member thus accept the terms of that agreement. So now not only are you implying something I never stated, but you are also implying everyone has accepted a PS+ agreement and uses cloud, which again, was never mentioned by myself.
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Error1355 posted...

Edited saves can be uploaded to the cloud which would violate the EULA regardless if you said to or not. Due to that we don't allow any save editing discussion on PS3 and PS4 games.

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Error1355 posted...

Error1355 posted...

Edited saves can be uploaded to the cloud which would violate the EULA regardless if you said to or not. Due to that we don't allow any save editing discussion on PS3 and PS4 games.

Not in rules. Still waiting for you to provide factual basis on your TOS. Show me. You realize this is a 2 part argument right? Even if you say you do not allow it, no where does the website rules mention they do not allow it. So I am done, you will not provide me with this rule, so it is to the point of hearsay on your end now.

Hearsay:

unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge
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Nenjii posted...

Not in rules. Still waiting for you to provide factual basis on your TOS. Show me.

I mean the hard-ass answer to that is the first bullet point of the ToU but we try to avoid just outright saying 'we can delete any post that the site deems not appropriate', but I'm at least explaining to you the logic of why this is viewed as an illegal activities rule violation. You were explained this multiple times in your dispute as well. Sorry you are upset with the rule but the deletion was appropriate.
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Error1355 posted...

Look. We don't allow it. I explained the reasoning why we don't allow it. There is no way to talk out of this, this is the way we enforce the rules on the site. Sorry if you do not like it. I'm sure any rational person can go 'oh okay I won't do that then here' and move on with their life.

lmfao by actually posting here you just made you and your staff look so weak

Gosh damn, lol, I love it.
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Error1355 posted...

Nenjii posted...

Not in rules. Still waiting for you to provide factual basis on your TOS. Show me.

I mean the hard-ass answer to that is the first bullet point of the ToU but we try to avoid just outright saying 'we can delete any post that the site deems not appropriate', but I'm at least explaining to you the logic of why this is viewed as an illegal activities rule violation. You were explained this multiple times in your dispute as well. Sorry you are upset with the rule but the deletion was appropriate.

Too bad you did not link that rule when you modded me, but accused me of breaking an EULA that was never done. So now you have to move the goalpost away from the topic because you can provide no rule that I supposedly broke, and have to go to your "last resort" argument that you can do whatever you want, for no reason.

I am glad you finally proved my point that you can be modded for something that isn't against the rules, and finally admit that you agree with me. As I stated before, I understand you have certain rules in place to protect your website.

But you provided no logic as to how I broke a rule, and imply hearsay over and over, only that something I stated can be used, if certain conditions are met. Which are:

1) Someone has to have an intention of doing something I never talked about, which is to exploit the cloud agreement.

2) They have to have the knowledge of how to do so, again, which I never spoke of.

3) They have to edit the save. <<< Which again is not against your TOS, and you have linked me no factual basis for why "you do not allow" something that is not against the rules.

4) That person would have to have a cloud PS+ licence, which again, I never mentioned. And the person would have to upload it to the cloud after accepting this.

5) You are implying I am guilty of someone elses evil intentions, even though I mention nothing how to do it. In US law you cannot commit a crime by talking about something that is not a crime.

You must show correlation, causation, and intent. Again you are implying intent from me for something I never mentioned, and accusing me of breaking a rule that doesn't exist and you can provide no proof in your TOS, and are also accusing me of causing someone else to break a rule and placing me at fault for something I never mentioned. I am not everyones babysitter, and the responsibility of someone elses actions are not on me, especially since I never mentioned how to even do as you state.

It's clear you have nothing to go on. Or you would have ended this quickly with a direct TOU link shutting me down. But you did not do such, you simply state hearsay about rules that do not exist. Because a mod says so, it is such, even though it is not in the rules. Goodbye. This is just laughable now.
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Hey whatever makes you feel better dude.

Just don't discuss save editing here anymore. Thanks. :D
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green dragon posted...

helly:1
error:0

wat
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you know what's fuckin hilarious?

"You may not modify or attempt to modify the online client, disc, save file, server, client-server communication, or other parts of any game title, or content.

this wording has been in every sony manual since the ps1.

just because online client is also there, does not make everything after it require usage of PSN. that's the entire point of the commas.

it's not just PSN that's being covered by that.

there's also this, more broad coverage in the PS3 EULA proper.

2. RESTRICTIONS
You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software. To the fullest extent permitted by law, you may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble any portion of the System Software, or create any derivative works, or otherwise attempt to create System Software source code from its object code. You may not (i) use any unauthorized, illegal, counterfeit, or modified hardware or software in connection with the System Software, including use of tools to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism for the PS3%u2122 system; (ii) violate any laws, regulations or statutes, or rights of SCE, its affiliated companies, or third parties in connection with your access to or use of the System Software, including the access, use, or distribution of any software or hardware that you know or should have known to be infringing or pirated; (iii) use any hardware or software to cause the System Software to accept or use unauthorized, illegal, or pirated software or hardware; (iv) obtain the System Software in any manner other than through SCE's authorized distribution methods; or (v) exploit the System Software in any manner other than to use it in your PS3%u2122 system in accordance with the accompanying documentation and with authorized software or hardware, including use of the System Software to design, develop, update, or distribute unauthorized software or hardware for use in connection with the PS3%u2122 system for any reason. Without limiting the scope of SCE's remedies, any violation of these restrictions will void the PS3%u2122 system's warranty and affect your ability to obtain warranty services and repair services from SCE or its affiliated companies.

a save file is system software. programs that can manipulate save files have circumvented sony encryption and authentication methods

get fucking rekt kid..
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and in case that still isn't good enough for you, here's the basic software license agreement that's in every single game manual.

1. GRANT OF LICENSE. The Software is licensed to you, not sold. After the authorized release date and upon installation of the Software, Licensor grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to use the Software for personal use on your PlayStation® system (e.g., PlayStation®4 system, PlayStation®3 system, PlayStation®Vita system, PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) system and all other current and future PlayStation® systems). For PlayStation4 Software only, Licensor also grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to use the share button to replicate or stream the Software’s audio and video output to third-party services supported by the PlayStation4 system where the Software permits use of the Share button and where Licensor has the rights to permit you to record, edit and share the Software’s content. This limited, non-exclusive license includes recording portions of the Software’s content to the PlayStation®4 system and to use that system’s tools to edit those recordings. Any rights in the Software not explicitly granted to you in this license are reserved by Licensor, including rights to all intellectual property contained in the Software. This license does not include the right to, and you agree not to (a) rent, lease or sublicense the Software or make it available on a network to other users; (b) modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Software; (c) create derivative works from the Software; or (d) copy, publicly perform or broadcast the Software in an unauthorized manner.

boom.

@Error1355

this means that save editing of any kind is considered illegal activites here.
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Welp.

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/legal/softwarelicense/

Adding that to the list these things the mods keep. Thanks

So @Nenjii I need to retract my earlier comment saying you can edit on the PS2. That's not allowed either.
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I am going to verify this by calling them tomorrow. But I think you are taking this out of context.

"Any rights in the Software not explicitly granted to you in this license are reserved by Licensor, including rights to all intellectual property contained in the Software. "

Do you know how to read legal agreements? This means that the licencor has the right to reserve the usage of this. Meaning it is not against their TOS. This is a direct statement that the licencor, meaning the creator of FFX owns these rights, and not the Playstation. Since the intellectual property contained in the software is owned by Square Enix, and only usable with their hardware, the FFX disc.

The part under this, which states:

"This license does not include the right to, and you agree not to (a) rent, lease or sublicense the Software or make it available on a network to other users; (b) modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Software; (c) create derivative works from the Software; or (d) copy, publicly perform or broadcast the Software in an unauthorized manner."

Does not list anything about modifying things contained in the software, but the software itself, since the licencor (Square Enix) controls modifying their game data, and not the company that the information is stored on. Since the above stated agreement that the Licencor holds the rights to all intellectual property contained in the software, the licencor is not Sony, but Square Enix.

So needless to say, I will give them a call when they open tomorrow to resolve this once and for all.

If the company that my information was stored on controlled the copyright, then ADATA the creator of my solid state hard drive would hold all the rights to everything I put on my computer, such as Fallout 3, Call of Duty, and World of Warcraft, and the operating system Windows 7. This is not so, because BETHESDA /Blizzard/Microsoft controls the copyright what is stored on the hard drive, not ADATA. Thus you cannot imply Sonys TOU applies to FFX when FFX/SE owns the copyright.
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I feel sorry for the customer service rep you're going to harass about legal terminology of an service agreement they had nothing to do with nor can give you legal advice on.
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Calling companies to bother them about this fuck me really is mini squader be sure to record the phone call
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Error1355 posted...

I feel sorry for the customer service rep you're going to harass about legal terminology of an service agreement they had nothing to do with nor can give you legal advice on.

SE holds the legal copyright for any saves, this is straight off of Sonys agreement. So it is a perfectly viable and legitimate question that shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to answer. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting clarification from the source company of your rights.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't? I find it odd you yourself do not know the answer, yet you are negatively shining a light on me for seeking a legitimate answer straight from them.

First you linked the PSN EULA. I corrected you that it was the wrong EULA. Then you link the Sony EULA. You would think moderators would have legitimate answers off the bat, besides having to rely on their own members to do the work for them.
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Nenjii posted...

I find it odd you yourself do not know the answer

B-but...he answered...your question...
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You have been given 2 or 3 different agreements that say no save editing but still find this morale crusade to legal loophole yourself out of a single moderation. I wish I could understand how someone can be so upset and angry about such a small minor thing. No matter what you hear from the Square Enix customer service rep we are not going to be changing our stance on save editing on consoles that do not allow it. All this effort you are going through is not going to change anything. Instead of stressing yourself out realize that GameFAQs isn't the place to discuss save editing games.
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Lady_Ninane posted...

Nenjii posted...

I find it odd you yourself do not know the answer

B-but...he answered...your question...

No where in here has he answered anything. He has already lost all credibility from 4 pages ago about false rants, and linking the wrong source material over and over. No where has a single question been answered.

The only "answer" i have gotten is they have the "right" to delete anything anytime without a reason, which wasn't even the reason I was modded. And he has linked 2 different EULAs trying to justify this decision, when neither have a damn thing to do with breaking the EULA, because it isn't even the companies EULA who it applies to. Give me a break man.
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Lmao 4 pages ago
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Error1355 posted...

You have been given 2 or 3 different agreements that say no save editing but still find this morale crusade to legal loophole yourself out of a single moderation. I wish I could understand how someone can be so upset and angry about such a small minor thing. No matter what you hear from the Square Enix customer service rep we are not going to be changing our stance on save editing on consoles that do not allow it. All this effort you are going through is not going to change anything. Instead of stressing yourself out realize that GameFAQs isn't the place to discuss save editing games.

And you have yet to link me the TOS that justifies anything you keep mumbling about over and over. You cannot even link the correct companies copyright that applies. You have failed to do such after 2 corrections from myself, and still provide no proof save editing is against the TOS.

I am not angry. I am doing this for amusement because it's so easy to see you have no idea what you're talking about, and have avoided the same question I have asked 20 times, which is to show me proof of where save editing is not allowed, and you have failed to do such over and over again.
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If nothing else this is really entertaining me while I'm at work. Like seriously dude there is literally no way I can spell this out any clearer for you.
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Error1355 posted...

If nothing else this is really entertaining me while I'm at work. Like seriously dude there is literally no way I can spell this out any clearer for you.

You have already spelled it out.

A) You have no idea what you're talking about. You link 2 EULAs not even dealing with the topic of discussion.

B) You cannot provide proof in your TOS that save editing is against the rules.

I do not know how I can make that any clearer for you. You expect someone to simply drop something because you ask nicely, without a legitimate answer, by avoiding the same questions over and over?

Error1355 posted...

You have been given 2 or 3 different agreements that say no save editing

No I didn't. You read the agreement how you wanted, which was half assed it. If you half ass something you do not understand, you get a half assed result. Which was, it holds no legal validity because what you linked has nothing to do with the copyright owner. You are linking copyright agreements blindly over and over again that DO NOT apply to save editing and the copyright of FFX (Square Enix).

And you have no TOS rules against save editing. Thus you have no basis for an argument whatsoever. You are merely spewing hearsay with no gamefaqs validation. The only validation you give me is your own, which is not validation, because it holds no bars or roots in any of the rules.

Thanks for amusing me all day brah. I've got better things to do than deal with you, as you have shown for PAGES you have no clue what the hell you're talking about and expect me to simply take your word for it, without a TOU backing your claim. And you do not know how to read simplistic legal documents the correct way, and in context to the very copyright laws you bring up having nothing to do with the legal documents you link over and over. Buh bye! :-)
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Fair, next.

/topic
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Nenjii posted...

h. I've got better things to do than deal with you,

Obviously not since you've made youtube videos and spent time in multiple topics along with making a phone call to a separate corporate entity regarding the issue tomorrow.
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Nenjii posted...

I am doing this for amusement

Lol, no, you're doing it because you're fuckin sad.

This topic is legendary. Well played, mods. You guys are alright sometimes.
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Cacciato posted...

Nenjii posted...

I am doing this for amusement

Lol, no, you're doing it because you're fuckin sad.

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Jen0125 posted...

Nenjii posted...

h. I've got better things to do than deal with you,

Obviously not since you've made youtube videos and spent time in multiple topics along with making a phone call to a separate corporate entity regarding the issue tomorrow.

Jen0125 posted...

Nenjii posted...

h. I've got better things to do than deal with you,

Obviously not since you've made youtube videos and spent time in multiple topics along with making a phone call to a separate corporate entity regarding the issue tomorrow.

Something that you nor gamefaqs has a legitimate answer to, that took a matter of about 25 minutes of my life total. Are you supposed to feel big or something about replying to a topic without valid evidence? And moving the goalpost from the original argument?
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Cacciato posted...

Nenjii posted...

I am doing this for amusement

Lol, no, you're doing it because you're fuckin sad.

Sad about being correct? You are also using ad hominem attacks in the place of the topic of discussion thus moving the goalpost. And I am the sad one? You're right here with me.

The mods cannot give a legitimate answer to 1 single question I have asked for a dozen pages:

a) Show me the rule that states save state discussion is forbidden. They cannot.

Sorry, the mods are the sad ones. If you're going to mod something, have a legitimate basis in your own TOU. I think you're honestly mad someone actually made your fellow mods look like fools. And if you had anything factual to say, you'd prove me wrong instead of using insults because you cannot prove anything.
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I'm not a mod so I don't need to answer any of your questions. I'm not sure what any of your whining paragraph has to do with me.
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Jen0125 posted...

I'm not a mod so I don't need to answer any of your questions. I'm not sure what any of your whining paragraph has to do with me.

You realize you're in a thread with 2 listed videos in the OP calling the website out correct? Then you reply to it

Nenjii posted...

Obviously not since you've made youtube videos and spent time in multiple topics along with making a phone call to a separate corporate entity regarding the issue tomorrow.

In a topic where no one has proven anything I have said false, thus how do I have a reason to be angry about something I have obviously invested very little time in. Then you claim about making a 2 minute phone call and 2 videos under 15 minutes each, totaling under 30 minutes of my life is somehow hell bent on having nothing better to do, considering time investment for all of this is all in the past 2 days of my 35 year old life, which by the way, I am doing at work.

You will learn one of these days that it isn't what you say, it is how it is in the context of discussion. And you have very little evidence I have wasted any "substancial" portion of my time in doing such.
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The truly sad part is that this kid's prolonged temper tantrum doesn't come anywhere near some of the other extended whine sprees I've seen.
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RaptorLC posted...

The truly sad part is that this kid's prolonged temper tantrum doesn't come anywhere near some of the other extended whine sprees I've seen.

Facts aren't a temper tantrum. I've asked the mods that same question for over a dozen pages without an answer. And everyone else comes in here like I am the one in the wrong, when they have no legitimate validation in their TOU. Thus I have every reason in the world to be here and ask, until they provide such proof.

It would be a temper tantrum if they gave such proof, and I still argued it. This is not the case. You're more than welcome to search the TOU and help the mods out. Rest assured you will not find anything. A lead mod has been in here over a dozen of pages without a response. Because there is nothing in the TOU about save editing. Their accusation is hearsay based on no valid roots in their TOU.
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Nenjii posted...

Cacciato posted...

Nenjii posted...

I am doing this for amusement

Lol, no, you're doing it because you're fuckin sad.

Sad about being correct? You are also using ad hominem attacks in the place of the topic of discussion thus moving the goalpost. And I am the sad one? You're right here with me.

The mods cannot give a legitimate answer to 1 single question I have asked for a dozen pages:

a) Show me the rule that states save state discussion is forbidden. They cannot.

Sorry, the mods are the sad ones. If you're going to mod something, have a legitimate basis in your own TOU. I think you're honestly mad someone actually made your fellow mods look like fools. And if you had anything factual to say, you'd prove me wrong instead of using insults because you cannot prove anything.

No, dude, this long drawn-out response is the perfect example of why you're so sad. I hope this is some weird form of entertainment for you because if you actually give a shit this badly you need help.

Yes, I reply to it telling you you are spending way too much time on this. Please get a life.
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Cacciato posted...

Nenjii posted...

Cacciato posted...

Nenjii posted...

I am doing this for amusement

Lol, no, you're doing it because you're fuckin sad.

Sad about being correct? You are also using ad hominem attacks in the place of the topic of discussion thus moving the goalpost. And I am the sad one? You're right here with me.

The mods cannot give a legitimate answer to 1 single question I have asked for a dozen pages:

a) Show me the rule that states save state discussion is forbidden. They cannot.

Sorry, the mods are the sad ones. If you're going to mod something, have a legitimate basis in your own TOU. I think you're honestly mad someone actually made your fellow mods look like fools. And if you had anything factual to say, you'd prove me wrong instead of using insults because you cannot prove anything.

No, dude, this long drawn-out response is the perfect example of why you're so sad. I hope this is some weird form of entertainment for you because if you actually give a shit this badly you need help.

You're here with me. I don't care, this is entertainment for me. Because I have drawn this out for over a dozen of pages with no valid mod response. I guess the search for the truth is a prerequisite of "needing help". Considering they modded me for something not covered in their TOU.

I have every right to ask the simple question to provide proof. They haven't. Simple as that. If you care enough to defend the mods on something they cannot provide proof for, maybe you're the one who needs help.
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Jen0125 posted...

Yes, I reply to it telling you you are spending way too much time on this. Please get a life.

At work. Got a life. Thanks. Ironic someone on "gamefaqs" telling someone to get a life. If you had one, you wouldn't even be on here. And checking your post history you have no life yourself.

You're more than welcome to check my post history.. Before this started going on, I would average maybe 2 posts a day on gamefaqs for MONTHS. So there goes that theory out the window. Next.

https://www.gamefaqs.com/community/Nenjii
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If you're calling CBS to dispute a moderation on gamefaqs, you've gone off the deep end.

Why not channel some of that misplaced fervor into tackling some of the actual misjustices of this world, instead of your pointless first world problem?
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SunWuKung420 posted...

If you're calling CBS to dispute a moderation on gamefaqs, you've gone off the deep end.

Why not channel some of that misplaced fervor into tackling some of the actual misjustices of this world, instead of your pointless first world problem?

Well, I could say the same about you, who are spending your time on gamefaqs arguing "meaningless" problems, instead of solving first world problems yourself.

Like I said, this is entertainment for me. You, like them, are defending mods for not being able to justify a moderation in their TOS.

A) If you are factually modded for a legit reason, you have no reason to discuss it.

B) If you are factually modded for a reason they cannot provide proof for, you have no reason to discuss it, and according to gamefaqs users, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Can you make up your mind with this circular logic? If a mod is legitimately disputable, you have every reason in the world to seek a dispute. I didn't even create this thread. I was planning on dropping it entirely until someone on the first page linked my name, and someone else started a poll and created this whole thread. So I have every reason to be here to defend my stance whether you like it or not. And that is not "going off the deep end".

Going off the deep end, is arguing and defending a moderation that has no basis in the TOU whatsoever. And continuing to do such, infinitely to no end.
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