Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 7 - The enemy always wins. (SPOILERS)

(+) Yeah! (+)

You don't count Littlefinger as big?
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Other than that, yeah. Sand Snakes, Tarlys, Thoros... yawn.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Tormund is not dead, and he has a lot of plot armor because he can't be replaced. Early seasons (and the book) are good because there are so many damn characters when one dies, their role can still be fulfilled.

Tormund is effectively the last of the wildlings outside of Gilly. Sure, there were scrubs with him at the wall, but all the named wildlings are dead and have been dead for some time. If Tormund dies, then Jon's whole martyrdom of letting the wildlings in doesn't mean anything because they just all died anyway. They are also gearing up for the big battle to be "everyone" vs the undead (outside of Cersei). They need a wildling contingent there for that to occur, and they aren't going to be like "wow look at all these people, you have a Lannister, Starks, Greyjoys, Targaryens, uh this random wildling extra we found, the Vale, etc all fighting together!".

Once they stopped giving us extra wildling characters to meet and talk to, Tormund has been basically untouchable.

Hm, this is good logic I guess. Should have shown him escaping in that case.
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My Immortal posted...

You don't count Littlefinger as big?

*insert Euron joke about size*
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Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I saw a theory for Tyrion's weird actions this episode that seems to line up (it's really dumb, but I think it probably is what the writers were going for).

The idea is that Tyrion wants to have "both sides" win by making Dany queen and then having Cersei's child take over afterwards since Dany can't have kids, thus appeasing the other Lannisters. This would explain why he was asked about who would rule after Dany an episode or two ago, why he was creepily standing outside the incest cabin, and add relevance to Jon's questioning of whether or not Dany was actually unable to have kids.

Of course, for this to obey all of the Chekhov's guns it would also require Jon to impregnate Dany, which would be the worst plot development yet.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I saw a theory for Tyrion's weird actions this episode that seems to line up (it's really dumb, but I think it probably is what the writers were going for).

The idea is that Tyrion wants to have "both sides" win by making Dany queen and then having Cersei's child take over afterwards since Dany can't have kids, thus appeasing the other Lannisters. This would explain why he was asked about who would rule after Dany an episode or two ago, why he was creepily standing outside the incest cabin, and add relevance to Jon's questioning of whether or not Dany was actually unable to have kids.

Of course, for this to obey all of the Chekhov's guns it would also require Jon to impregnate Dany, which would be the worst plot development yet.

Haha damn I just came back into the topic to say I saw a post on the TV board that caught my eye.

laszlo_olzsal posted...

you all are underestimating the importance of Tyrion's meeting with Cersei.

if he believes Cersei's pregnant, he may have promised her something regarding succession that Dany is unaware of.

this makes his creepy hanging around outside Dany's cabin door while she and Jon are having sex that much creepier, LOL.

I even said in my long post that for as much as I thought that scene was absolutely excellent, the ending of it was a bit jarring and I wanted it to go for a good while longer. But it cutting where it did makes a lot of sense if you go with this theory!
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Also!

Remember last year when Lyanna whispered to Ned and a lot of it was cut out? It makes a hell of a lot more sense now why they would do that. I also thought it was a weird choice, to reveal R+L=J but to then not reveal what Lyanna said. It left the actual confirmation of R+L=J a little bit more vague than perhaps it should have been, but now them doing that makes a lot more sense.
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My Immortal posted...

You don't count Littlefinger as big?

I mean, kind of. Killing Littlefinger like season 4 would've been a huge death.

This season it didn't really feel like it. His role has been ill defined for a couple seasons now, he wasn't the big antagonist, Sansa repeatedly said she didn't trust and knew better...it just kind of felt perfunctory I guess. At this point in the story, it's more like, "oh yeah, of course Littlefinger gets killed, where else could this be going".
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I still don't think this was a bad season, but I thought the first four episodes were great and the last three were a good deal weaker because of how rushed everything was (Finale was pretty ok though! Some great parts, some not so great parts). I think if they just kept the standard 10 episode season, I would've enjoyed this significantly more.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

I don't see what's so incomprehensible about LF trying to play Sansa and Arya against each other. He was counting (correctly) on the Starks' animosity toward each other being difficult to overcome. Bran was an issue, but in person, LF only heard the 'chaos is a ladder' line. And it wasn't clear how strong Sansa/Bran were connected. He gambled on bad communication/being able to steer Sansa, and finally his hand was overplayed.

And don't forget that gambling on his opponents' bad decisions (or decisions that will benefit LF) has been part of LF's MO from the very beginning.

The whole plan was flawed because it relied on the ridiculous assumption that Sansa actually trusts Littlefinger and doesn't just keep him around because he's been pretty useful. But that's fine, it's a good character flaw for LF since he's so thirsty for Stark girls.

But it also relied on Sansa/Arya having preposterously bad communication. If Arya even mentions Littlefinger to Sansa, the whole plan falls apart. This episode showed that Sansa only needed a little push to realize what LF was up to since she already distrusts him. It's frustrating because it relied on the characters not just being dumber than LF but making very stupid decisions, and the plan is left vague enough so that other things that would blow it up don't occur. So we get some CW-tier drama of unfortunate misunderstanding and it doesn't matter because it falls apart off-screen anyways.

That said I liked the actual execution scene, it was very well done and satisfying even if everything leading up to it was bad. Littlefinger has just been floundering for the past few seasons and it was definitely time for him to go.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

The whole plan was flawed because it relied on the ridiculous assumption that Sansa actually trusts Littlefinger and doesn't just keep him around because he's been pretty useful. But that's fine, it's a good character flaw for LF since he's so thirsty for Stark girls.

But it also relied on Sansa/Arya having preposterously bad communication.

I listed a bunch of cases where preposterously bad communication was the only way out for LF, though! Lying about the dagger, killing Jon Arryn, and killing Lysa right in front of Sansa - those were ALL actions where a simple conversation could have ended LF. He rose to his political heights by taking massive gambles, but he's survived by getting lucky/predicting which people would not blabber at the right time.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Tormund is not dead, and he has a lot of plot armor because he can't be replaced. Early seasons (and the book) are good because there are so many damn characters when one dies, their role can still be fulfilled.

Tormund is effectively the last of the wildlings outside of Gilly. Sure, there were scrubs with him at the wall, but all the named wildlings are dead and have been dead for some time. If Tormund dies, then Jon's whole martyrdom of letting the wildlings in doesn't mean anything because they just all died anyway. They are also gearing up for the big battle to be "everyone" vs the undead (outside of Cersei). They need a wildling contingent there for that to occur, and they aren't going to be like "wow look at all these people, you have a Lannister, Starks, Greyjoys, Targaryens, uh this random wildling extra we found, the Vale, etc all fighting together!".

Once they stopped giving us extra wildling characters to meet and talk to, Tormund has been basically untouchable.

You say that, but there are no named Dothraki left either.
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If they wanted to kill Tormund, they would've done it in the wight capture (where it would have been more impactful) or they would've done it in the scene where he and Beric were lying on the floor and watched the Wall crumble.

I know we did the whole thing with Stannis and "no show no happen" but I really feel like they wouldn't pull that with a fan favourite like Tormund. I mean, Stannis was a fan favourite too but the showrunners hated his guts so.
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qhono is a named dothraki. also, no one gives a fuck about the dothraki.
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Anagram posted...

You say that, but there are no named Dothraki left either.

True, even in the books the named Dothraki are interchangeable redshirts.
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They probably left it ambiguous in case they decide they don't need him anymore or he asks for too much money

"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies."

Felt like such a relevant line. Unexpectedly so for this show, in this season.
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XIII_rocks posted...

"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies."

Felt like such a relevant line. Unexpectedly so for this show, in this season.

Great line. I think the only way to pay off that asinine wight plot is if the nobles of Westeros overthrow Cersei, realizing that she's full of shit, and seek someone who can tell the truth.

That is not going to be what happens, considering that all the lords Jaime was talking to were obvious redshirts, and only characters with names can do anything in this show.
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I agree with that being a good line

Jon has overall gotten a fair share of solid material this season. although it's really no surprise. he's essentially the golden child of the game of thrones cast.
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jon has always been something of a golden child for the show, and i didn't feel he'd done anything to earn it in the first two or three seasons. but by season 5, all the better characters were sidelined (tyrion, arya) or dead (robb, tywin) and jon suddenly became by far the most interesting character on the show. it was impossible to look away when jon was on screen in S5.

seasons 6 and 7 have been mostly bland for jon with isolated moments of real greatness, but he's bought himself a lot of leeway from me for his performance in S5.
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I've also liked Jon way more these last few seasons than early on. The acting has gotten better and the character has become more endearing. Especially in season 7, I enjoyed his fish out of water scenes in the south.
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XIII_rocks posted...

"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies."

Felt like such a relevant line. Unexpectedly so for this show, in this season.

https://twitter.com/Scaramucci/status/901996399419678721
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guys you know we have a politics containment topic right
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The wall has fallen
The threat cannot be contained

LordoftheMorons posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies."

Felt like such a relevant line. Unexpectedly so for this show, in this season.

https://twitter.com/Scaramucci/status/901996399419678721

I'm the mooch, apparently
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

Anagram posted...

You say that, but there are no named Dothraki left either.

True, even in the books the named Dothraki are interchangeable redshirts.

There is at least one though! It's just nobody cares about him so no one actually knows his name.

The "your people don't know how to fight" guy who has like one line an episode. He was in last season, too. No idea what is name is though.

And in the books there are also a handful of named Dothraki left that have been with Dany for some time. It's just that no one cares about them either.
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XIII_rocks posted...

but to me Jon's speech about lies and how they become more attractive than truth etc seemed to be a comment on Trump and the whole fake news era

You really thought so?

More than like... a comment on Game of Thrones?
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I've always found Jon to be a pretty bland character, to be honest. Both in the books and in the show.

Also, there are plenty of named Dothraki in the books, they just never really do anything. Dany still has all three of her bloodriders in the book (Aggo, Jhogo and Rakharo) and her handmaidens (Irri & Jhiqui).
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What about JoJo
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I don't think anyone said there were no named Dothraki left in the books.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

qhono is a named dothraki. also, no one gives a fuck about the dothraki.

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SeabassDebeste posted...

I listed a bunch of cases where preposterously bad communication was the only way out for LF, though! Lying about the dagger, killing Jon Arryn, and killing Lysa right in front of Sansa - those were ALL actions where a simple conversation could have ended LF. He rose to his political heights by taking massive gambles, but he's survived by getting lucky/predicting which people would not blabber at the right time.

There are some pretty big differences in those cases though. The first is that he's pretty well-trusted by all those people (Catlyn, Lysa, Sansa) at the points where he does those things. The second is that he can reasonably expect all those people to act logically, or at least predictably. Here, he's trying to play people who actively distrust him off each other. That means he can't be discovered because they'll turn on him, except his plan relies on being discovered by Arya. He also needs them to talk to each other without that ever coming up. You can say he's a gambler, but even by post-Bolton Littlefinger, it's an extremely bad plan. Literally doing nothing would have been a smarter play.
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2 questions

1.Did Sansa know about the Jon Arryn thing or was this also Bran? she was a witness to the moon door thing but I don't remember her knowing about Jon Arryn (and obviously not the letter)

2.What happened to the other named characters of East-watch..which I guess is only Gendry and Davos? are they still there?

A disallowed word, twa t, was found in your Message Text - you will need to remove or obscure the word in order to post it

Actually three questions
What the fuck is this shit?
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Davos was with them in KL.
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I think
unlike in the books
Sansa wasnt around when Lysa Tully started expositing everything
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My Immortal posted...

You don't count Littlefinger as big?

His character died gradually and quietly after the battle of the bastards. There was not much left at his execution.
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foolm0r0n posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

but to me Jon's speech about lies and how they become more attractive than truth etc seemed to be a comment on Trump and the whole fake news era

You really thought so?

More than like... a comment on Game of Thrones?

Of course. We also learned in this topic that Game of Thrones went full feminist years ago.
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htaeD posted...

Sansa wasnt around when Lysa Tully started expositing everything

i thought she was, in 4x05.
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Rhaegar's other son being named Aegon is indeed mentioned in the show. This naming makes sense though, Lyanna would not care and Rhaegar is a dick who clearly didn't care about his previous wife. Also he was obsessed with The Prince who was Promised. This actually frames one of the House of the Undying visions in the books in a different light too.

SeabassDebeste posted...

jon has always been something of a golden child for the show, and i didn't feel he'd done anything to earn it in the first two or three seasons. but by season 5, all the better characters were sidelined (tyrion, arya) or dead (robb, tywin) and jon suddenly became by far the most interesting character on the show. it was impossible to look away when jon was on screen in S5.

seasons 6 and 7 have been mostly bland for jon with isolated moments of real greatness, but he's bought himself a lot of leeway from me for his performance in S5.

This is also true for book 5 as well. Tyrion and Dany's storylines were bad, Arya, Jaime, etc. were barely in it, allowing Jon to shine. He had the best storyline in that book other than Theon.
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Yeah, Jon and Theon for Book 5 for sure. I think Jon is the MVP of the book because there's so much more of them than there is of Theon (something like 13 to 7 chapters). The final Jon chapter in ADWD is one of my favorite of the books.
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Wow, I don't agree at all. I think Tyrion was great until he got captured by Jorah. Jon's chapters in Dance for me just devolved into "there's not enough food at the Wall m'lord" or "but we can't let the wildlings pass!".

Although I was able to stomach his chapters better when I read Dance alongside Feast.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

qhono is a named dothraki. also, no one gives a fuck about the dothraki.

Oops, I somehow missed your post. Yes, Qhono is who I was thinking of. Thanks!
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One thing I noticed mostly everyone that are ok with Littlefinger dying is that they are all saying they don't care because Littlefinger character is no longer necessary and he isn't clever like he used to be

While I agree I also think this isn't an excuse - the character was there, he had potential and they wasted him
I also disagree that he wasn't important ever since season 4 or something - let me remind you he is the reason Cersei got arrested by the sparrows
He is the only character (besides Tyrion) to fuck Cersei over again and again (making her go to a war with the Starks and Jaime prisoner, killing her son) and she never got him for that
People give Littlefinger too little credit..and after the last season I can understand why, but it wasn't like this before
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Nanis23 posted...

While I agree I also think this isn't an excuse - the character was there, he had potential and they wasted him

concur'd
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Menji posted...

Davos was with them in KL.

Ohhhhhh
Yeah I watched that again, he had a good amount of screen time too, no idea how I forgot it
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Like Jorah, he didn't really say anything in the episode.

Did they ever even say if Gendry stayed at East-watch or went back south with Davos?
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If Littlefinger's plan had worked, he would have been in charge of the North, Riverlands and the Vale. That's half the country, and would easily allow him to sweep in and take the Iron Throne. I feel it isn't emphasised enough how close Littlefinger came to an enormous amount of power. Sansa outplayed him though.

Secret episode MVP by the way is definitely Yohn Royce for telling Littlefinger to shove it.
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Lightning Strikes posted...

If Littlefinger's plan had worked, he would have been in charge of the North, Riverlands and the Vale. That's half the country, and would easily allow him to sweep in and take the Iron Throne. I feel it isn't emphasised enough how close Littlefinger came to an enormous amount of power

And Cersei could have been a prisoner of the sparrows for a long time..maybe forever

I have no idea if they execute people if they don't confess though
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Next season on Game of Thrones: will Sansa execute Jon for breaking his Nights Watch oath?? Jon walks into the great hall, hands behind his back. Sansa says, I'm sentencing you to death for your crimes, Night King! Everyone turns to look at a shocked Night King standing in the corner
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GANON1025 posted...

Next season on Game of Thrones: will Sansa execute Jon for breaking his Nights Watch oath?? Jon walks into the great hall, hands behind his back. Sansa says, I'm sentencing you to death for your crimes, Night King! Everyone turns to look at a shocked Night King standing in the corner

I like to imagine Sansa planning that out with Arya.

"Okay, I'm going to have you stand in front of the bench like I'm judging you, then I'm going to list off a bunch of crimes to make everyone think you're guilty of something. Then at the last minute I'm going to lock eyes with Littlefinger and say his name instead."
"Why?"
"You just don't get it, Arya."
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