Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 7 - The enemy always wins. (SPOILERS)

(+) Yeah! (+)

his scene with the other ironborn was fucking atrocious
once again we see that faux-progressive writers always, always regress to the same exact mindset
the show presents itself with one as progressive and feminist ideals but it's actually just empty pandering
at its core this is a show where every line of development leads to characters becoming more masculine and more badass
every character arc ends in the character dying
or they become more badass and masculine
the only way a character can prove their worth is by accomplishing this
this is all that most hollywood and television writers know
they try to pander to the current social climate
but the truth is that they fundamentally do not understand anything about what makes character development work
except for the standard masculine development arc
they literally had theon go down to the beach and get into a fist fight with some tough bully
god damn everything about this episode was so fucking corny
this was easily my least favorite scene, I hated everything about it
theon gets some amazing development where Jon forgives him and he feels like he belongs again
then they immediately just have him go down to the beach and like totally beat up some dude bro
I think it was so bad I was actually laughing out loud

sam showing up at winterfell is pretty LOL
I guess night's watch vows don't mean anything now
granted, they never have to sam anyway
he knows his buddy jon will look after him and let him break the rules
nepotism at its finest
but to be fair to the show writers this has always been the story between jon and sam
I think we're just not meant to view it in those terms
even though it requires about 2 seconds of thought to really see it
I guess they assume most viewers are not capable of 2 seconds of thought

anyway I thought it was hilarious to have them talking about how jon and dany are related
specifically during the scene where they are having sex
and for some reason tyrion is like spying on them from the end of the hallway
hahah wtf was that seriously
at some point I have to wonder what the normals are going to think about this nonsense
I mean jaime and cersei have been a thing since the beginning
but they were specifically cast as antagonists and the incest was painted in a negative light
now suddenly they are making the two most rooted for main characters an incest couple
this really changes the entire context of the show
and makes it seem like it is actually pro-incest, or at least okay with it
I really wonder if normals are capable of handling this
then again it would require 2 seconds of thought to realize that jon and dany are aunt and nephew
so uh, maybe once again they are assuming that 2 seconds of thought doesn't exist

ice dragons is dumb
the fact that it somehow breathes blue fire now is hilarious though
would love to hear the biological explanation for exactly why or how this happened
beyond 'we thought having the ice dragon breathe blue fire would look cool'

overall maybe a 4/10? maybe?
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Man this show is so bad now

Like it's still entertaining, but jesus
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I liked it
*shrug*
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MariaTaylor posted...

brace yourselves, salt incoming

tbh, far less salty than i imagined. i literally disagree with almost nothing

small thing - the fake trial for arya was really silly, BUT i think the idea was to catch LF off guard, not just the viewer. give LF an inklimg of what's coming and the MF counterschemes.

in honesty, book-LF has a gigantic weakness in the form of sansa, too - if she had come out with the tears of lys/killed lysa story there, she could have fucked over LF real bad then, too. though we conveniently glazed over sansa being an accessory to murder by lying on LF's behalf to the lords of the vale in both cases but whatever.

the only thing about your rant i would "disagree" with is that i'd have a better overall rating, and more enthusiasm for the ending - the snow, the ice dragon (it breathes fire because of magic, obviously), the R+L=J (tyrion is a proxy for the viewer's unease with incest), and the sansa/arya scene at the end

i also feel like it needs to be said that no one flinching at a dragon with a 300 foot wingspan they're seeing for the first time, then getting shaken up by a single wight, is pretty ridiculous
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- Dragonpit scene lacked impact, although the confrontation with the wight was real good.

- I know people hate Sansa but if this is not some con by her to beat Littlefinger this is just so bad. What's the point of following Sansa's storyline if she's gonna keep making the same mistakes? Might as well have put the Quentyn plot in if you wanted to make a statement like that!

- Dany gonna get killed and I don't like it.

- Alfie Allen is so good.

- Okay, this scene with calling Arya to the Long Hall just seems sooo "OMG YOU DIDNT SEE THIS COMING DID YOU HAHA WERE SUCH GOOD WRITERS ARENT WE PSYCHE!"

- Wow look at this guys, Bran is finally being useful who'd have thunk it.

- I thought the conclusion was that the dagger was Joffrey's. Are they really gonna pin this on Littlefinger?

- Rhaegar is totally not attractive enough to be Rhaegar. Also, Lyanna is of the north, why would they wed without a weirwood tree present?

- Aegon? What? Why? What a dumb...jesus these...I don't care if this is a GRRM thing, Aegon? What a dumb....good lord.

- Emilia Clarke boobies! I don't care if they're fake boobies, boobies are boobies.

- I hope those shots of Tyrion don't imply some idiotic love triangle thing.

- For not having emotions, the Night King sure has a flair for the dramatic. Why not just burn a hole in the Wall through the bottom so your peepz can pass through? No, gotta make a big show-off scene. Pfft.

- Glad it's a normal dragon and not an ice dragon. That's not how dragons work, not even the Night King's magick.
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RyoCaliente posted...

- I thought the conclusion was that the dagger was Joffrey's. Are they really gonna pin this on Littlefinger?

book-only
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did the show ever specify who the dagger belonged to after Littlefinger lost it?
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i don't think so, it turned into a dropped plot point iirc

though in fairness it also was something of a dropped plot point in the books. if the only proof in the show we ever got that joffrey sent the assassin was also tyrion/jaime's inner, unconfirmed monologue, we would have rioted

i do like that it doesn't matter we sent the assassin at this point though - littlefinger decided to use that to stir the shit either way

(another extremely incautious moment of him that came from the books, btw - dude has a history of making massive gambles - they've just been paying off until now)
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Anagram posted...

By the way, to the people annoyed at Rhaegar naming two sons Aegon...

He didn't divorce his wife, he had the marriage annulled. That means that the marriage was never valid and his children in it are just bastards. That means Aegon Targaryen (Jon) is to be his 'real' son and Aegon Sand (his original son) is just kicked to the curb.

It makes sense if you assume Rhaegar is a completely heartless jackass.

This is actually a really interesting point when considering the books, and it might mean this is how fAegon's rally ends.

Also, I can't believe I didn't mention it in my post but the Sam and Bran scene was so stupid I think it actually made me dumber.
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In the show it is confirmed by Bran that the dagger is from LF and he sent the assassin
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So what was the Night King's plan for when he got to the Wall before he got handed a dragon in the previous episode?
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MrGreenonion posted...

So what was the Night King's plan for when he got to the Wall before he got handed a dragon in the previous episode?

Ha, I was going to ask this too. Seems like the WWs only became a threat after getting a dragon. Probably could have just sniped them with dragonglass arrows from the wall had Dany, Jon, and co not been idiotic.
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Obviously his plan was to walk so ridiculously slow they brought the dragons to him out of boredom.

Underrated dumb moment of episode: Brienne arguing "fuck loyalty"

brienne is the worst adapted character in the show. she's a showrunners' mouthpiece; the show has never taken a remotely critical look at her.

she's actually GRRM's mouthpiece in the books, too, in a way, but she's so much better of a character for it that i can't criticize that
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What I do like is that they shat out episode 6 to keep the bar super low for this finale. It worked pretty well because can you imagine going from an episode like 4 into this finale?
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foolm0r0n posted...

What I do like is that they shat out episode 6 to keep the bar super low for this finale. It worked pretty well because can you imagine going from an episode like 4 into this finale?

For me, the worst episode of the season was 7x05 (and right after the best!). That was the episode that enabled me to defend 7x06 whole-heartedly and to enjoy 7x07 without compunction, as well.
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Also, I just wanna predict Dany dying in S8, Jon ending up on the Iron Throne and the show ending on close-up of his face and his eyes turning blue. He IS dead, after all.
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RyoCaliente posted...

Also, I just wanna predict Dany dying in S8, Jon ending up on the Iron Throne and the show ending on close-up of his face and his eyes turning blue. He IS dead, after all.

Nah, at this rate it'll end with Arya killing Cersei and then besting Jamie in a duel while saying something like "that's what I call GIRL POWER" and then Jon and Dany declaring that Westeros is now a democracy or something. Oh and like someone said before, Maester Sam chronicling the whole thing post-credits.
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I don't think there is any possibility Dany dies unless she goes mad but I don't think that is likely either anymore.
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All this episode did was confirm Lyanna Stark as the main antagonist of the series.
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There was a lot of talk about succession towards the end of this season. Seems like a pointless thing to bring up if she isn't going to die.
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RyoCaliente posted...

- For not having emotions, the Night King sure has a flair for the dramatic. Why not just burn a hole in the Wall through the bottom so your peepz can pass through? No, gotta make a big show-off scene. Pfft.

Walkers can't go under the Wall, thanks to its enchantments. I don't think Wights are supposed to be able to either, so I guess they flew the one they captured around the Wall or something?
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Samurai7 posted...

There was a lot of talk about succession towards the end of this season. Seems like a pointless thing to bring up if she isn't going to die.

Nah not really. She could abdicate or name someone who can produce children as her heir.

Mac Arrowny posted...

Walkers can't go under the Wall, thanks to its enchantments. I don't think Wights are supposed to be able to either, so I guess they flew the one they captured around the Wall or something?

They probably can't go through the Wall of their own volition. Given that wights did rise in Castle Black, we can assume that they can cross if carried by the living.
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The wall is perhaps one of the stranger things about the whole episode.

With the wall still up, a natural reaction should have been "why fear the dead when there is a wall between us", but no one really brought it up. A wall that has been up for thousands of years and no one considers that it might hold?

Perhaps the wall was meant to fall prior to the meeting but someone decided they really wanted the season to end with the wall falling.
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I meant a hole at the bottom of the Wall like there are gates but a dragon-made hole so they can just walk through it. If the dragon burning a part of the Wall destroys the enchantment, I'm sure burning a hole through it does it as well.

Also, I really can't see the show ending with Dany and Jon as a happy couple, given their familial relations. So I would bet Dany dies at one point.
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I'm pretty sure "Well that was stupid" aptly sums up everything I could say about the episode.

Like.

Littlefinger: I'mma go randomly make the Stark sisters kill each other now, despite my stated affection for Sansa being the only possible believable motivation for me at this point.
Bran: You know I know everything, right? Except for who married whom because that shit's boring.
Littlefinger: No one talks to you, cripple. Now excuse me while I don't have you murdered while you're sitting in a secluded space all by your lonesome.
Bran: Thanks, bud, but you're gonna regret that in exactly 183 hours.
Sansa: Hey Littlefinger guess who I talked to last night?
Littlefinger: Well fuck me.

There was no rational way Littlefinger's plan worked. We only expected it to because that is the quality of writing we have grown accustomed to.
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FFDragon posted...

All this episode did was confirm Lyanna Stark as the main antagonist of the series.

She was just thirsty for that dragon dick

Samurai7 posted...

There was a lot of talk about succession towards the end of this season. Seems like a pointless thing to bring up if she isn't going to die.

That was literally just Jon hitting on her
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Samurai7 posted...

There was a lot of talk about succession towards the end of this season. Seems like a pointless thing to bring up if she isn't going to die.

This plus all the mentioning of her not being able to get pregnant it's far more likely that Jon just knocked her up
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I'm thinking pregnant dany, has twins or something, dies sometime after.
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dowolf posted...

We only expected it to because that is the quality of writing we have grown accustomed to.

To be fair I never felt like Arya's life was in any danger, only Sansa's. That's why it would've been better if that meeting started off with Sansa being threatened. Like Sansa is like "where's Arya" and then she drops down from the ceiling like "kept you waiting huh" and then Sansa looks all surprised but then is like "okay good we can begin the trial of lord baelish".
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red13n posted...

I'm thinking pregnant dany, has twins or something, dies sometime after.

And then Cersei also has twins and dies.

Last scene of the season 8 finale is a timeskip 40 years forward and their children are still fighting each other. Cut to 70 year old Sam who chuckles and says "welp, looks like the Game of Thrones never ends!"
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Chaos is a ladder, and Bran is the best climber in the business.
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foolm0r0n posted...

"kept you waiting huh"

This is a sneaking mission
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I think my least favorite thing about this season is how they tried to make it all dramatic and serious again. S6 was amazing because every scene had sitcom style comedic timing, but that was largely lost here. Some things were good like the awkward meetings, but that's really it.
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I don't see what's so incomprehensible about LF trying to play Sansa and Arya against each other. He was counting (correctly) on the Starks' animosity toward each other being difficult to overcome. Bran was an issue, but in person, LF only heard the 'chaos is a ladder' line. And it wasn't clear how strong Sansa/Bran were connected. He gambled on bad communication/being able to steer Sansa, and finally his hand was overplayed.

And don't forget that gambling on his opponents' bad decisions (or decisions that will benefit LF) has been part of LF's MO from the very beginning.

The very first thing he does is lie about the dagger, which anyone could have unearthed if they hadn't immediately trusted him.

He conspires with Lysa to murder Jon Arryn, but Lysa is left alive. And she's fucking batshit. He gambles that Lysa's love for him will keep her quiet.

He then murders Lysa outright, with Sansa as an obvious witness. He gambles that Sansa will feel helpless enough not to rat him out.

As for the payoff to manipulating Arya/Sansa against him - it's pretty clear that Arya will never be an ally to LF. And an Arya/Sansa union is the biggest threat to LF - not just because he could be executed (as we see in the season finale), but because the closer Sansa grows to Arya, the less she'll trust LF. Sansa, though she seems to have shrugged off LF's influence, was the only real political lever LF had to pull in the North. So he gambled, and it didn't work out.

I don't think it was spectacularly written or executed, but it made sense.
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foolm0r0n posted...

FFDragon posted...

All this episode did was confirm Lyanna Stark as the main antagonist of the series.

She was just thirsty for that dragon dick

Samurai7 posted...

There was a lot of talk about succession towards the end of this season. Seems like a pointless thing to bring up if she isn't going to die.

That was literally just Jon hitting on her

Jon wasn't present for all the talk between Tyrion and Dany the prior episode.
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I found that pretty compelling

Euron just fucking off was hilarious, but that line - "this terrifies me" did seem a bit forced. But apparently that was intentional, which is even more hilarious. Euron a 32433/10 character as always. Although I was confused by the way he immediately confronted Tyrion and Theon like that (I laughed hard at Jaime's "I don't know" why shrug to Tyrion though. Great little bit of comic timing by NCJ). The Hound immediately confronting Gregor was equally unnecessary. I think the feelings at play there could have been conveyed without dialogue.

I like how Jon was Aegon until I was reminded by this topic that Rhaegar's son with Elia was Aegon. Though it is possible that was never mentioned in the show, in which case the kids of Rhaegar and Elia could have different names. Mental gymnastics, I know, but there we are. Oberyn was the one who talked about those kids the most and I'm positive he never mentioned them. Or Elia came up with the name herself in honour of Rhaegar's family or in memory of the dead kid. There are a variety of explanations, none of them particularly strong.

There are logistical problems with the whole Sansa/Arya/LF deal but I like the way it was presented at least. I can buy that LF wasn't totally convinced of Bran's power or not aware of the actual depth of it. In all honesty, Bran just quoting something back at LF is not in itself evidence that Bran can see everything. LF would have been unsettled by it, but I don't see how LF would immediately know from that that Bran can see everything and would plan for his omniscience. I don't think this was about turning the Stark girls against each other but by bringing Sansa closer to his trust, making himself his only confidant (which is kind of what he did to Lysa).

I actually said "ugh, bitch" when Cersei told Jaime she wasn't marching north. I should have seen it coming but alas. Great scene though. Being manipulated by Cersei is another L for Tyrion, hope he stops taking those in the final season.

Speaking of which I thought the scene with Cersei/Tyrion was electrifying - I could have seen it go for another 10 minutes and I was actually a little bit jarred by the way that scene ended.

Jon/Theon scene was also really great.

Sam/Bran was more than a little bit contrived. I liked the directing but it seemed off to me that Bran would immediately tell Sam something that he hadn't yet even told Sansa or Arya.

Like last episode, I liked a lot of the conversations early on but they seemed forced and there was probably a couple too many. I liked all the pairings, but the writers/editors needed to kill their darlings with that. You don't need Tyrion and Pod and then Tyrion, Pod and Bronn, for example. Too much of a good thin;g.

Dragonpit scene was great though. The awkwardness and the intertwining relationships gave the whole thing so much underlying meaning.

Tormund dying like that FUCKING SUCKED. FUCK OFF.

Immensely satisfying episode that lacked the logistical issues of episode 6 - still had some, just a few less. I felt it set up enough stuff and I'm interested in how this is all going to unravel in Season 8. Though I struggle with exactly how they plan to wrap it all up in 6 episodes.


Last thing:

This has probably already been said, or might just be reading way too much into stuff, but to me Jon's speech about lies and how they become more attractive than truth etc seemed to be a comment on Trump and the whole fake news era. Maybe it was just the honour of that character, but that speech especially stood out to me as particularly and deliberately relevant.
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Oh for some reason I thought it was Jon talking to her about (succ)ession
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Hahaha! Do you honestly think Tormund died? What?! I didn't people that naive existed.
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Tormund is so not dead.
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Tormund definitely didnt die. He was on the side of the wall that didnt collapse.
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Yeah, I don't know how we are supposed to think that Tormund / Beric survived, but if they didn't explicitly show them dying, they're not dead.

I guess the wall stopped crumbling right next to where they were conveniently.
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I really liked the finale. I'll post more later maybe when I'm not about to clock in to work. I'll need to rewatch Season 7 to give it an "official" ranking, but tentatively:

6 > 4 > 1 = 3 = 7 > 2 = 5

Lots of equaling makes for a dry list, I grant you, but there are differing strengths and weaknesses at play and I don't have the spoons to get more technical until I watch the whole thing again.
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I think my favorite part of the episode was Cersei lying about joining forces, and the Euron/Iron Bank reveal. The show would have been a lot more boring if it was just everyone vs. the White Walkers.
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The entirety of East watch and a good section of the wall was blown the fuck up. I'm presuming they meant that to be his death.

I both do and don't want him to be dead. I mean, it's not a great death and it is somewhat ambiguous, but after the Hound and the general lack of the writers being douchebags for the last two seasons (Bronn arguably should have died in episode 4, and Tormund himself could, perhaps should, have died in 6) in terms of killing off fan favourites I feel like they can't pull that shit again. But then I wouldn't complain if we got more Tormund.
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

I think my favorite part of the episode was Cersei lying about joining forces, and the Euron/Iron Bank reveal. The show would have been a lot more boring if it was just everyone vs. the White Walkers.

Yeah I like this a lot. People were saying in these topics last year that Cersei would die this season and that she wouldn't have any role in the endgame and I thought that was nuts and would be a crying shame. It would have been too neat, just like if the ending is Jon and Dany as king and queen living happily ever after that would be too neat. Having two seasons to conclude the story and those seasons being neatly split into Cersei and then The Dead would have been very convenient.
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Tormund is not dead, and he has a lot of plot armor because he can't be replaced. Early seasons (and the book) are good because there are so many damn characters when one dies, their role can still be fulfilled.

Tormund is effectively the last of the wildlings outside of Gilly. Sure, there were scrubs with him at the wall, but all the named wildlings are dead and have been dead for some time. If Tormund dies, then Jon's whole martyrdom of letting the wildlings in doesn't mean anything because they just all died anyway. They are also gearing up for the big battle to be "everyone" vs the undead (outside of Cersei). They need a wildling contingent there for that to occur, and they aren't going to be like "wow look at all these people, you have a Lannister, Starks, Greyjoys, Targaryens, uh this random wildling extra we found, the Vale, etc all fighting together!".

Once they stopped giving us extra wildling characters to meet and talk to, Tormund has been basically untouchable.
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Bronn absolutely could have been killed off though, but he's a fan favorite so he also seems to be invulnerable until the end game.

The season was very light on big deaths, surprisingly. Only one I'd really count is Lady Olenna. Dany's least favorite dragon, too, I suppose, but that was one that everyone saw coming because it basically had to happen.
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Does the dragon even count as a loss? He basically just switched sides.