Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 119: This Place is a Dump

(+) Yeah! (+)

Hey he didn't @ them this time
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LordoftheMorons posted...

I see Kelly is doing a great job reining in those tweets

This is actually why Trump left the White House.

Can't stop me from tweeting on the job if I'm not on the job.

*Trump pointing at head picture*
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The Google employee who wrote and distributed the 10 page manifesto saying "Hey guys, we should really consider a wide variety of ideas, including the fact that women are biologically inferior to men at tech jobs" has been fired.

Skyridge87 posted...

The Google employee who wrote and distributed the 10 page manifesto saying "Hey guys, we should really consider a wide variety of ideas, including the fact that women are biologically inferior to men at tech jobs" has been fired.

Source?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo

the employee is also planning to sue Google for it



lol
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We already have a topic covering this

It's a Vlado topic but reasonable discourse has taken over
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thing is, he'll get money because Google will want to settle quietly
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There are people who don't have Vlado ignored?

I don't see how he has a case

Like I'm guessing he claims he was fired because he's male and that it gets laughed out of court.
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I feel like Google has a decent chance in that case, actually. The dude wrote a 10 page manifesto basically detailing all the ways in which he believes women are unfit to work at the company and distributed it to every single employee - exactly who is he supposed to work with at Google now? Every single female employee knows he thinks they're inferior to him because they have a vagina and he doesn't. Every male employee who doesn't share his views will view him as a sexist. Even if they could scrounge up enough alt-right Googlers for him to work with, who outside of them is going to want to work with that team? The dude has created a textbook toxic work environment.
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Jakyl25 posted...

We already have a topic covering this

It's a Vlado topic but reasonable discourse has taken over

Don't expect that to last!
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Seems like he'd have a stronger case if Google was the government, which it isn't.
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yet
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Alex Jones is cutting out the middle man and giving his audience Russian propaganda straight from the horse's mouth:

https://twitter.com/McFaul/status/894754863543799811
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He doesn't fit the culture that they want to have there, I guarantee they'll be able to point to company policies and show how hee is incompatible. Good riddance, there's already enough people like him in tech.
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Trump finally to address the opioid crisis today. Hopefully fentanyl gets a schedule I classification soon.
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I'm not familiar with what that classification is or means. Can i get a quick explanation of the impact of that?
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Peace___Frog posted...

I'm not familiar with what that classification is or means. Can i get a quick explanation of the impact of that?

Schedule I is reserved for drugs with no medicinal value and high potential for abuse, such as heroin and marijuana (>_>).

Fentanyl has no business in pain management and should be fully outlawed imo.
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Are there any studies that fentanyl is more addicted than other pain medicine? In a hospital setting it is a very effective drug to use in pain management.

Regardless the reason why fentanyl is quickly becoming the drug of choice (either alone or to spike other drugs) is because you need so little of it, making it easier to traffic.
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charmander6000 posted...

Are there any studies that fentanyl is more addicted than other pain medicine? In a hospital setting it is a very effective drug to use in pain management.

Regardless the reason why fentanyl is quickly becoming the drug of choice (either alone or to spike other drugs) is because you need so little of it, making it easier to traffic.

A lot of ppl using fentanyl do not even know they are doing fentanyl.
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Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.
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charmander6000 posted...

Are there any studies that fentanyl is more addicted than other pain medicine? In a hospital setting it is a very effective drug to use in pain management.

There are plenty of other effective treatments that run a far lower risk of illicit use.

Apparently you only need a grain of fentanyl to make a lethal dose, so it's getting mixed in to a lot of street drugs to increase potency.
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Peace___Frog posted...

Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.

This is the one area where "big pharma" has been pretty unforgivable recently. There's definitely malfeasance going on there, but it's also important to remember that many doctors are total scumbags/idiots and need to be held accountable too.
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Peace___Frog posted...

Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.

I believe you should get Narcan once and after that it should not be administered. Taxpayers should not have to support people who continue to drain it by being dredges of society. I know people who have been narcaned 7 times. At what point do we not realize they have had their wake up call and refused to care about it?
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Corrik posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.

I believe you should get Narcan once and after that it should not be administered. Taxpayers should not have to support people who continue to drain it by being dredges of society. I know people who have been narcaned 7 times. At what point do we not realize they have had their wake up call and refused to care about it?

How would anyone know how many times they've been resuscitated?
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.

This is the one area where "big pharma" has been pretty unforgivable recently. There's definitely malfeasance going on there, but it's also important to remember that many doctors are total scumbags/idiots and need to be held accountable too.

Oh I agree. Doctors, for all their reverence, are incredibly corrupt when it comes to suggesting medicines to their patients. It makes sense because there's no way for a human to be aware of every single remedy and weigh the pros and cons. But this kind of epidemic doesn't just happen.
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Peace___Frog posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.

This is the one area where "big pharma" has been pretty unforgivable recently. There's definitely malfeasance going on there, but it's also important to remember that many doctors are total scumbags/idiots and need to be held accountable too.

Oh I agree. Doctors, for all their reverence, are incredibly corrupt when it comes to suggesting medicines to their patients. It makes sense because there's no way for a human to be aware of every single remedy and weigh the pros and cons. But this kind of epidemic doesn't just happen.

I'd argue that epidemic is a result more of societal issues than availability. That same feeling of hopelessness that Trump was able to feed into when dismantling the Republican field is the exact same thing fueling the epidemic. This epidemic is especially bad in rural white America, and has gotten so bad the life expectancy of white Americans has actually been dropping in recent years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/20/health/life-expectancy-decline-mortality.html

Dr. Arias, who is preparing a larger study of mortality trends over the past 15 years, said drug overdoses, liver disease and suicide were the main drivers of the gloomy trends among whites in recent years, a pattern also found by other researchers.

Obviously there are things we can and should do to help curb the opioid epidemic, but if Trump doesn't also address the underlying issue the bigger problem here isn't going to change. Opioids are abused because of ease of access, and if you cut them off then the population susceptible to their abuse is going to switch to other means to dull their pain. "Deaths of desperation" isn't going to go down as a whole I would guess - you would see fewer drug overdoses but an increase in suicide and liver disease. The opioid epidemic is a symptom of the problem, and not the problem itself.

Also, pain is notoriously difficult to manage and diagnose. Big Pharma is obviously pushing this too hard, but it isn't as if the doctors and big Pharma are addressing an imaginary problem. It isn't always obvious if a patient has drug seeking behavior, and while doctors have signs they are supposed to look for, most people who do this sort of thing ALSO know what doctors are looking for and can lie around it. There isn't an easy test you can hook someone up to and go "oh you have nine pain units - that's bad". There are plenty of problems with the relationship between doctors and drug manufacturers, but it isn't as if a big portion of a doctor's income is coming from those sweet sweet fentanyl profits. I believe "scumbag doctors" aren't the main driving force here, and a bigger problem in the industry are doctors suggesting too many tests (MRI, X-ray, etc) that aren't needed instead of giving away too many drugs.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Corrik posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.

I believe you should get Narcan once and after that it should not be administered. Taxpayers should not have to support people who continue to drain it by being dredges of society. I know people who have been narcaned 7 times. At what point do we not realize they have had their wake up call and refused to care about it?

How would anyone know how many times they've been resuscitated?

Very rare an od is not called in by someone and indentified or have indentification on them.
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Also I need to look more into fentanyl specifically to see if I agree with it being classified as a schedule I drug. I'm sure they've done studies on the effectiveness of fentanyl in pain management for either terminal patients or patients with severe chronic pain, and I would like to see how it stacks up in comparison to other similar drugs prescribed to these kind of patients.

"No currently accepted medical use in treatment" is a very specific statement and I have not done the research to know if I fully agree with that statement.
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I can't really take the drug classification system seriously so long as marijuana is still schedule I for no reason other than political posturing.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Also I need to look more into fentanyl specifically to see if I agree with it being classified as a schedule I drug. I'm sure they've done studies on the effectiveness of fentanyl in pain management for either terminal patients or patients with severe chronic pain, and I would like to see how it stacks up in comparison to other similar drugs prescribed to these kind of patients.

"No currently accepted medical use in treatment" is a very specific statement and I have not done the research to know if I fully agree with that statement.

There is a variation which is worse then fentanyl that drugs are mixed with that is the equivalent of a horse tranquilizer. Starts with a C i think.

I think fentanyl is like 100x stronger then heroin and that other type is like 1000x stronger than heroin.
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Carfentanil is the other one.
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Corrik posted...

There is a variation which is worse then fentanyl that drugs are mixed with that is the equivalent of a horse tranquilizer. Starts with a C i think.

Ketamine?
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Corrik posted...

There is a variation which is worse then fentanyl that drugs are mixed with that is the equivalent of a horse tranquilizer. Starts with a C i think.

I think fentanyl is like 100x stronger then heroin and that other type is like 1000x stronger than heroin.

It's carfentanyl and it's 10000x stronger than heroin (as in you need 10000x less to overdose)

Basically it'll kill anyone that doesn't have proper training.
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TIL there is more than one horse tranquilizer.
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I don't think classifying it to prevent its use will be effective. It's not a pain-killer that's prescribed to people so people aren't getting addicted because of it.
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FFDragon posted...

TIL there is more than one horse tranquilizer.

Technically carfentanyl an elephant tranquilizer.

>_>
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The point mostly is though that ppl go to buy heroin and they are given fentanyl or carfentanil laced product which they are unaware of and thus kills them.
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I know, it's pretty bad in Vancouver.

A "War on Drugs" stance is not going to work here.
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Corrik posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Corrik posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.

I believe you should get Narcan once and after that it should not be administered. Taxpayers should not have to support people who continue to drain it by being dredges of society. I know people who have been narcaned 7 times. At what point do we not realize they have had their wake up call and refused to care about it?

How would anyone know how many times they've been resuscitated?

Very rare an od is not called in by someone and indentified or have indentification on them.

So what you're saying is that before somebody resuscitates somebody, they should be like "Hold on, I gotta call and check if they have been yet, first. They usually put you on hold for twenty minutes but it should be fiiiiine."
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HashtagSEP posted...

Corrik posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Corrik posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Thanks for the explanation.


I suspect there are a lot of root causes of the epidemic, and I'm in favor of curbing use of opiods in hospital settings as well as going after drug companies that oversell their shit. I don't pretend to have all the solutions, but doing nothing is only going to make things worse. I also support treating the users with some sympathy and providing law enforcement with that antidote thing I've heard about but can't remember the name of.

I believe you should get Narcan once and after that it should not be administered. Taxpayers should not have to support people who continue to drain it by being dredges of society. I know people who have been narcaned 7 times. At what point do we not realize they have had their wake up call and refused to care about it?

How would anyone know how many times they've been resuscitated?

Very rare an od is not called in by someone and indentified or have indentification on them.

So what you're saying is that before somebody resuscitates somebody, they should be like "Hold on, I gotta call and check if they have been yet, first. They usually put you on hold for twenty minutes but it should be fiiiiine."

Yep. They shouldn't even revive you at all tbqh. But, I believe people should have second chances and a chance to hit rock bottom.

Can't even get affordable epipens but narcan on call for every OD? Get the fuck out of here.
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I get what you are saying, but that goes contrary to their mission which is to save lives.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Also, pain is notoriously difficult to manage and diagnose. Big Pharma is obviously pushing this too hard, but it isn't as if the doctors and big Pharma are addressing an imaginary problem. It isn't always obvious if a patient has drug seeking behavior, and while doctors have signs they are supposed to look for, most people who do this sort of thing ALSO know what doctors are looking for and can lie around it. There isn't an easy test you can hook someone up to and go "oh you have nine pain units - that's bad". There are plenty of problems with the relationship between doctors and drug manufacturers, but it isn't as if a big portion of a doctor's income is coming from those sweet sweet fentanyl profits. I believe "scumbag doctors" aren't the main driving force here, and a bigger problem in the industry are doctors suggesting too many tests (MRI, X-ray, etc) that aren't needed instead of giving away too many drugs.

A big part of the issue is the way hospital management companies (which are run by MBAs, not doctors) are run, and specifically that they have a very adversarial relationship with doctors. They do things like tie a doctor's pay to patient surveys about whether they liked the doctor, so when you have drug-seeking patients, they're not gonna give you a good evaluation if they didn't get their drugs. So while doctors aren't getting fentanyl profits directly, their employers are financially penalizing them for not prescribing it. This adversarial relationship is also why doctors order more tests than may be necessary, because it's not about practicing evidence-based medicine but about practicing cover-your-ass medicine, and also about maximizing billing. If there's any justification for a test, the HMCs want it run so they can bill for it, but doctors can defend it as not medically necessary and a waste of resources. However if the case is a one-in-a-million chance where the test would have revealed something that would have led to a better outcome and it wasn't done, then the doctor is in a lot of trouble and could lose their job. The HMC is really upset that tests weren't billed, but they go after the doctor under a guise of a medical failure. So instead doctors don't personally take on that risk and just order the fucking test.

The whole issue here is that HMCs don't actually WANT doctors on staff at hospitals because doctors command a high salary. They want to replace doctors as much as possible with nurse practitioners, PAs, and others who don't have as much education and expertise to command a higher salary. So when every decision has to be balanced between making the best medical decision and protecting your employment from hostile management, sometimes non-medical concerns win out unfortunately.
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SgtSphynx posted...

I get what you are saying, but that goes contrary to their mission which is to save lives.

Save the right lives if you are gonna save lives.
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Corrik, ever the utilitarian.

Should we also kill off the disabled, the elderly, and anyone who can't score at least a 250 in bowling at the age of 18?
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Corrik posted...

Save the right lives if you are gonna save lives.

No. No. No. No No.

Doctors should not be deciding which lives to save, and which lives to not save on a basis other than medical urgency.
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Who died and made Corrik arbiter of what lives are worth saving?

Fuck off, you psycopathic piece of shit
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Besides, getting rid of Narcan/Naloxone won’t make Epipens any cheaper.
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Whooooo boy, this is Corrik at his worst, and that's saying a lot.
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Would you like a visual explanation of just how much Ronald Reagan fucked up the U.S. economy? Here you go!

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/07/opinion/leonhardt-income-inequality.html?_r=0
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