Current Events > Modern MMO design is one of the most baffling things people put up with...

(+) Yeah! (+)

This is one of those examples where I can't understand why people enjoy this style of game.

All the trappings they have to deal with such as

-The game doesn't actually "start" until you reach level cap. You're spending dozens of tedious and boring hours churning through all this irrelevant content? Why is it even there? This would be unacceptable in literally every other game so why do people put up with it here? "Hey guys I know you want to see what happens on the journey of Joel and Ellie in "The Last of Us" but you're going to have to spend 37 hours walking through empty streets and desolate woods where nothing happens at all. Once you've done that the story begins"


-The gear treadmill. You complete Thing A to have a chance to get Gear A so that you can go do Thing B which has Gear B which is better stated but not as cool looking as Gear A, but that doesn't fucking matter at all because you can just Transmogradoodledipdopskiparoosirmixalot and change its looks into whatever piece of gear you want.

-And that leads me to my next point that they make things so convenient that nothing you do has any weight or importance. The hours of time you spend doing something doesn't have any weight. It doesn't make you feel good when you accomplish it. Because everyone does it easily and you're moving on to the next thing immediately

-Basic gameplay. You stand there repeating a rotation of abilities with ZERO thought put into it. Nothing changes from fight to fight, things really don't get harder or even more interesting as the game progresses, you just have a few more abilities. And then when you get into a group it's just a clusterfuck of animations and particle effects until you have a fucking seizure.



What the fuck is actually happening on screen. Nobody knows, it's just an ejaculation of graphical nonsense to trick your little lizard brain into thinking you're having fun.

But if you're actually confused and unsure of where to look, then allow me to make it easy for you.



You don't need to pay attention to a fucking thing that's happening on screen. Don't stop for a second to enjoy the scenery, plot out your objective, the terrain, the enemies movements or the enemies themselves. All you need to do is stare directly at that minimap that's pointing your dumbass to your next objective. Your quest log that tells you how many time sinks /100 you have left to complete so you can go turn that in without reading one word of the quest details because it's all useless filler. And finally you just have to glance at your hotbar so you know what abilities are coming off cooldown for you to spam.


It's absurd.
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SwayM posted...

The game doesn't actually "start" until you reach level cap

I disagree with this statement.
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The farthest I ever got in an MMO was beating the necromancer dude in Daggerfall in ESO, then I realized the game sucks

As a kid I played a free trial of Wizards 101 and it was fun but it was basically a card game or something and I had to stop because you had to pay to do big boy stuff

I prefer round-based FPS games for online

I hated Rocket League so much the first time I bought it that I refunded it, now I only own it because all my friends do
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SwayM posted...

But if you're actually confused and unsure of where to look, then allow me to make it easy for you.

This picture is what tells me you haven't actually played WoW.
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pegusus123456 posted...

SwayM posted...

But if you're actually confused and unsure of where to look, then allow me to make it easy for you.

This picture is what tells me you haven't actually played WoW.

I mean, I think a big black box blocking most of the screen would make it hard for me to enjoy WoW as well.
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pegusus123456 posted...

This picture is what tells me you haven't actually played WoW.

yeah that really obscure game no one's played.
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I'm actually quite fond of ESO
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I mean

The hotkey stuff is cool, I loved the chain and dragonblood etc as the tank class dude

But the content was really boring imo
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You're ignoring the social aspect. Playing with friends and guildies over the years tend to create real bonds.

Anteaterking posted...

pegusus123456 posted...

SwayM posted...

But if you're actually confused and unsure of where to look, then allow me to make it easy for you.

This picture is what tells me you haven't actually played WoW.

I mean, I think a big black box blocking most of the screen would make it hard for me to enjoy WoW as well.

And you wouldn't know how to not stand in the fire, or look out for other fight mechanics.
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Typically the social aspect makes it worth it.
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The23rdMagus posted...

And you wouldn't know how to not stand in the fire, or look out for other fight mechanics.

Ah yes how could I forget

The basic combat mechanics are so archaic and boring that in order to add any variety or "fun" to the fights they litter every boss fight with macguffins and gimmicks to arbitrarily increase the length and "difficulty" (i.e. useless shit you gotta remember).

Yeah, super good game design.
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SwayM posted...

The23rdMagus posted...

And you wouldn't know how to not stand in the fire, or look out for other fight mechanics.

Ah yes how could I forget

The basic combat mechanics are so archaic and boring that in order to add any variety or "fun" to the fights they litter every boss fight with macguffins and gimmicks to arbitrarily increase the length and "difficulty" (i.e. useless shit you gotta remember).

Yeah, super good game design.

Suggestions for improvement?
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So what are you saying? That vanilla wow was good?

The23rdMagus posted...

Suggestions for improvement?

In my perfect MMO the combat would have the weight and fluidity of something like Dark Souls. You don't need 143254345 abilities, you just need the basic mechanics to be fun. And then when you add layers on top of that you have something special.

megamanzero1000 posted...

So what are you saying? That vanilla wow was good?

That's actually the popular thought these days, you don't need to hear if from me.

Vanilla WoW did have a lot of things going for it. The most important thing was that it was new, and you can't recreate that.But that's an important takeaway. People are nostalgic for the days when you could just explore the world and discover things, meet new people and get into interesting scenarios. The endgame grind is not what people fell in love with all those years ago.

It was nice also that it didn't hold the players hand at literally every opportunity. I remember getting your different forms as Druid was actually involved and fun. When everything is given to you without any effort it feels like the game plays itself.
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Thank you.
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"In my perfect MMO the combat would have the weight and fluidity of something like Dark Souls."

Aaaaaand you lost me.
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EffectAndCause posted...

"In my perfect MMO the combat would have the weight and fluidity of something like Dark Souls."

Aaaaaand you lost me.

This guy can't git gud
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ugh screenshots of Final Fantasy XIV... making me want to buy it.

I jerk it ingame by using a female avatar to bait both lonely guys and naive girl gamers into giving me free loot.


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the thing i've really started to hate about mmos is the combat system. Like the melee system has been so dumbed down that you just follow a rotation set forth

in dark age of camelot, the melee combat system was so much more involved. You had attacks you could do anytime(usually high stamina costs, lower damage). Attacks you do off your position in relation to the enemy. are you at his side, at his back, at his front? attacks you do off reactions to their attacks. Did you block dodge or parry? well you got different attacks to do on them. Then you had chains to follow up on your previous attacks.
are you a stealth melee class, well you have positionals+ those that have a stealth ability requirement.

another thing i dislike is positioning in ranged combat seems rather pointless when melee can basically just hit a button and reach your location.
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I just don't think MMOs are for you. I mean, which is obvious. But plenty of people don't see those as cons, and I'd even disagree with your points.
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One of the biggest things I hate about MMOs is the fact that combat is so incredibly far removed from anything resembling combat, both visually and in terms of controls. You're just waiting on timers and remembering predetermined combos with almost no variation in available strategy to adapt to changing situations. You have a role, you play that role like a mindless robot. Then the screen is so full of gameplay indicators (neon attack/status effects, bars, damage counters, etc.) that nothing is actually happening and everything is merely representing something. It's like it was all designed by people with a very mathematical outlook on gaming.
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MMORPG Quests make me furious. I should be able to go on my own adventure instead of being told where to go because quests are the only way to level at a reasonable rate, and sometimes mandatory to unlock content. And the rewards are WAY too good for the effort. "You killed those 5 wolves for me? Here's a powerful magic mace that's slightly better than what that guy over there gave you!"

If Atelier Firis was turned into an MMORPG it would be legendary, because it gets everything RPG-Adventure right, it's just lacking the multiplayer

TheMarthKoopa posted...

MMORPG Quests make me furious. I should be able to go on my own adventure instead of being told where to go because quests are the only way to level at a reasonable rate, and sometimes mandatory to unlock content. And the rewards are WAY too good for the effort. "You killed those 5 wolves for me? Here's a powerful magic mace that's slightly better than what that guy over there gave you!"

If Atelier Firis was turned into an MMORPG it would be legendary, because it gets everything RPG-Adventure right, it's just lacking the multiplayer

They actually are making an Atelier MMO. :o It's for phones, though.
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I like oldschool Runescape because it's simple. You click on a thing, it dies, you level up your attack so it does more damage. The mining skill rewards you with useful armor and a very tidy method of income when you get good at it, and you train your smithing skill pretty much concurrently to mining. You have a bunch of fetch quests and story and stuff, but for the most part it's tongue-in-cheek and you're rewarded well for doing them. And while the experience is greatly expanded with a paid membership, you can play for free for as long as you like and still get a lot of meat out of the game.
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There's some fun phone MMOs tbh. It's the direction we've been heading in anyway.
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ClockworkHare posted...

There's some fun phone MMOs tbh. It's the direction we've been heading in anyway.

What would you recommend? I have Android, if any are Apple exclusive.
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aside from the gear treadmill argument your other points don't really make sense and can apply to most video games in existence
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Delirious_Beard posted...

aside from the gear treadmill argument your other points don't really make sense and can apply to most video games in existence

...you wanna read those over again?
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i always love the vanilla wow was actually good camp because they made wildstar, which was supposed to be a return to vanilla wow.

turns out no one wanted to pay for that
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TheMarthKoopa posted...

MMORPG Quests make me furious. I should be able to go on my own adventure instead of being told where to go because quests are the only way to level at a reasonable rate, and sometimes mandatory to unlock content. And the rewards are WAY too good for the effort. "You killed those 5 wolves for me? Here's a powerful magic mace that's slightly better than what that guy over there gave you!"

If Atelier Firis was turned into an MMORPG it would be legendary, because it gets everything RPG-Adventure right, it's just lacking the multiplayer

That's why I like the missions in The Secret World - there are some good stealth ones and puzzle solving ones that can make you pull your hair out with how ridiculous they are.

@MrMallard - I second that. Runescape has an appeal to it that a lot of modern games don't. It's very relaxing to grind out skills and listen to music. The quests play like classic 90s point-and-click adventures moreso than the stereotypical MMO fetch quest... and it's just been around for so long, I don't think I'll get over that nostalgia whenever I load it up.

I never was too fond of most MMOs myself. The main one I enjoyed was city of heroes/city of villains, because the different powers and whatnot you could pick was fun as hell. I used to like playing a rogue in world of warcraft back in the day (like, back when you actually had to plan when to use crowd control abilities like sheeping and sapping. Going around in stealth and sapping key mobs or doing other general rogue stuff was so much fun back then), but blizzard eventually making this kind of stuff pointless/them "streamlining" the combat/the constant rogue nerf and buff rollercoaster (all because blizzard does not have a system for seperate PvE and PvP buffs and nerfs, =/) eventually killed all enjoyment I used to have for WoW. They brought actual planning/thinking back for cataclyscm heroic dungeons, but they quickly went back the the streamlined brain-dead style of gameplay mad quick.

At the end of the day, I greatly prefer online action rpgs over MMOs in general. (in which I mean games like diablo, monster hunter, champions of norrath, and my favorite video game of all time phantasy star online episode 1 and 2. Good lord do I miss the phantasy star online series).
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MadDewg posted...

(all because blizzard does not have a system for seperate PvE and PvP buffs and nerfs, =/)

They do now actually.

And the new mythic+ dungeons might use CC and the like at higher levels. I don't do those much, so I dunno.
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ClockworkHare posted...

There's some fun phone MMOs tbh. It's the direction we've been heading in anyway.

Are there any which doesn't have an auto-pilot button?
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I miss ultima online too
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Play FF14. It's gud
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I miss exploration in mmos. I played Everquest on the ps2 and had a blast exploring caves and shit. The little time that I played ff11 I had a similar experience. Now everything is instanced and you don't need to actually search for anything. You just follow your mini map.
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Jiek_Fafn posted...

I miss exploration in mmos. I played Everquest on the ps2 and had a blast exploring caves and shit. The little time that I played ff11 I had a similar experience. Now everything is instanced and you don't need to actually search for anything. You just follow your mini map.

Should check out Guild Wars 2. Exploration is why I love it.
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Leanaunfurled posted...

Jiek_Fafn posted...

I miss exploration in mmos. I played Everquest on the ps2 and had a blast exploring caves and shit. The little time that I played ff11 I had a similar experience. Now everything is instanced and you don't need to actually search for anything. You just follow your mini map.

Should check out Guild Wars 2. Exploration is why I love it.

It's a great game, but in the latest expansion, the maps are just too difficult to explore solo because I came into the expansion late. Most of the skill points are guarded by unsoloable champions.

Edit: Before you reply get a group, I tried but it's difficult considering I play during off peak hours.
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I like the combat in Black Desert Online.
It's a shame there's not much to do with it other than trash mobs, world bosses and pvp
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ClockworkHare posted...

I jerk it ingame by using a female avatar to bait both lonely guys and naive girl gamers into giving me free loot.

i keep forgetting about that video and then rewatch it, and then go "why the hell did i watch that again?"
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pegusus123456 posted...

MadDewg posted...

(all because blizzard does not have a system for seperate PvE and PvP buffs and nerfs, =/)

They do now actually.

And the new mythic+ dungeons might use CC and the like at higher levels. I don't do those much, so I dunno.

Ah, word. When did they actually start doing this, the seperate pve and pvp balances? This sounds pretty cool actually.
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MadDewg posted...

Ah, word. When did they actually start doing this, the seperate pve and pvp balances? This sounds pretty cool actually.

Legion. I don't PvP myself so I don't know all the details, but I believe gear is equalized in BGs and arenas. Honor is also now used as its own sort of level-up system with its own talents. Like the first tier lets you choose between the ol' break CC PvP trinket, a passive that automatically breaks any CC that lasts more than five seconds (1 minute CD), or a passive that just reduces all incoming CC effects by 20%.
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Jiek_Fafn posted...

I miss exploration in mmos. I played Everquest on the ps2 and had a blast exploring caves and shit. The little time that I played ff11 I had a similar experience. Now everything is instanced and you don't need to actually search for anything. You just follow your mini map.

100% this. I absolutely loved in FFXI how you actually had to acquire the maps for each zone. It led to situations where you would be following the one guy in the party with the map. Small things like this help sell the experience of being in a big world with other people. Many zones were actually very maze like and quite difficult to navigate
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NurseRedHeart posted...

Typically the social aspect makes it worth it.

Amusingly, the aspect I dislike most about MMOs is the actual "multiplayer" part, I hate having to rely on other people or for them to rely on me in order to get anything done.

Suffice to say, FFXI was about the worst first MMO experience I could have asked for, to the extent I almost swore off the entire genre right there when I played it way back then.
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The Catgirl Fondler posted...

NurseRedHeart posted...

Typically the social aspect makes it worth it.

Amusingly, the aspect I dislike most about MMOs is the actual "multiplayer" part, I hate having to rely on other people or for them to rely on me in order to get anything done.

Suffice to say, FFXI was about the worst first MMO experience I could have asked for, to the extent I almost swore off the entire genre right there when I played it way back then.

Now this is a person that shouldn't be playing MMOs.
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Runescape was the best
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