Board 8 > God, I forgot how garbage the intro of Kingdom Hearts is.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Tons of cutscenes surrounded by bad fetch quests, awkward controls, button mashing combat, and incomprehensible story. Then you get to a new area, and follow more a random search with no instructions or directions, and a boss fight that's excessively difficult while giving you no tools to fight it other than a basic attack.

No wonder I didn't like it before :/

nah
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Yeah KH1 started pretty bad.

KH2 was incredible though.
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tazzyboyishere posted...

Yeah KH1 started pretty bad.

KH2 was incredible though.

Kh2 started pretty bad too :P

OctilIery posted...

tazzyboyishere posted...

Yeah KH1 started pretty bad.

KH2 was incredible though.

Kh2 started pretty bad too :P

"Isn't this ROMANTIC?!"

N-no Seifer. This has nothing to do with romance, stop saying that!
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Yeah I can't get into KH1 till Agrabah and really it may be even longer than that till it actually gets good cause that may be my fanboyism for Aladdin at work. Not much longer though-- I know Neverland is legit good cause I was never big on Peter Pan anyway.
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OctilIery posted...

tazzyboyishere posted...

Yeah KH1 started pretty bad.

KH2 was incredible though.

Kh2 started pretty bad too :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6mGOeKbeTo
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tazzyboyishere posted...

Yeah KH1 started pretty bad.

KH2 was incredible though.

Like, IMO entirely ass-backwards. Not sure I'd say Destiny Island is incredible, but it was good and the intro to KH2 was by far the worst part of the whole game.
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Dark Young Link posted...

OctilIery posted...

tazzyboyishere posted...

Yeah KH1 started pretty bad.

KH2 was incredible though.

Kh2 started pretty bad too :P

"Isn't this ROMANTIC?!"

N-no Seifer. This has nothing to do with romance, stop saying that!

Well he could have been using the other usage for romance

But eh
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Eh I always liked Traverse Town and the early worlds.
Taking so long to get Cure is kind of annoying though.

KHII's opening is just horrible because you just don't even play the game for 5 hours.
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God, I forgot how garbage the entire series of Kingdom Hearts is.

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I bought the 1/2 remaster thing a bit ago and got as far as "wander around until you find people"
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I agree with TC


I tried showing my friend KH and I completely forgot how stupid and slow the Islands were


it completely killed it for my friend



KH2 had a cool ending to the prologue, but even when I first played it, it felt super long and dragged out

Okay, yea yea, Vivi and Seifer are cool and everything but get on with it!
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KH2's opening feels awful
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KH2 has an into that is maybe cool once, the first time you play it. After that, it's a chore to get through on replays.
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Punnyz posted...

I agree with TC


I tried showing my friend KH and I completely forgot how stupid and slow the Islands were


it completely killed it for my friend



KH2 had a cool ending to the prologue, but even when I first played it, it felt super long and dragged out

Okay, yea yea, Vivi and Seifer are cool and everything but get on with it!

you don't show them the gameplay you just show the opening movies and move on
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I don't know. I like the fact that Kingdom Hearts 1 didn't hold your hand so much but it appears that seems to be the thing that people don't like.
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pjbasis posted...

Eh I always liked Traverse Town and the early worlds.
Taking so long to get Cure is kind of annoying though.

KHII's opening is just horrible because you just don't even play the game for 5 hours.

Yeah, this. I love the beginning of KH, really.
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I tried watching a speedrun of KHII. Took him 45 minutes just to get to The Land of Dragons.
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The intro to KH1 isn't that bad. I started it up last night and got to Traverse Town in like 25 to 30 min.

OctilIery posted...

Tons of cutscenes surrounded by bad fetch quests, awkward controls, button mashing combat, and incomprehensible story. Then you get to a new area, and follow more a random search with no instructions or directions, and a boss fight that's excessively difficult while giving you no tools to fight it other than a basic attack.

No wonder I didn't like it before :/

Sounds like maybe you need an easier difficulty?
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trdl23 posted...

God, I forgot how garbage the entire series of Kingdom Hearts is.

No you didn't you say it almost every chance you get in topics
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KH2 has one of the best openings in all of gaming, way ahead of its time

KH1 is close behind... the nostalgia power of Destiny Islands crossed with the wonder of first landing in Traverse Town is pretty much unmatched in any game
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you're sarcastic about II surely
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Nope
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It has Roxas so obvi amazing opening
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I remember enjoying KH2's opening
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The thing with Destiny's island is that if you don't want to do the fun stuff like fighting your buddies then you don't have to.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Nope

mr game design thinks not playing the game is good game design?

Having to play like 5 bad mini-games when exploring the "seven wonders of twilight town" or earning money through s***ty skateboarding mini-games before you get to swing a sword in an action game?

i had you all wrong!
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I agree with TC, too. This is exactly why I didn't like it before, either. I found it practically unplayable. Thus, I've never gone back to the series and have never understood what the hype was about.
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That mail delivery one is legit as f*** you know how many spins and air time you can get
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ninkendo posted...

I remember enjoying KH2's opening

It's fine the first time but horrible on replays.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

I don't know. I like the fact that Kingdom Hearts 1 didn't hold your hand so much but it appears that seems to be the thing that people don't like.

I don't mind not holding your hand, but there's a big difference. Traverse town is simply "you need to enter these buildings and areas in this specific order, including backtracking, with no real rhyme or reason and nothing pointing you to them,either subtly or forcefully.

Waluigi1 posted...

Sounds like maybe you need an easier difficulty?

I was on normal. The boss attacks quickly and randomly, and kills in two hits,while I have no skills or items beyond a couple potions.

Actually Traverse Town is "you need to go to the Second District to view one cutscene and then go back and talk to Cid."

I agree that its not told at all, and the game almost implies that you need to look around and explore first. But I'll talk no direction over complete control any day.

OctilIery posted...

I was on normal. The boss attacks quickly and randomly, and kills in two hits,while I have no skills or items beyond a couple potions.

Two solutions to any difficulty in kingdom hearts. The action way: get good. Learn patterns. You're attacking when it's unsafe. It can be hard to keep track of the action since there are so many targets in Guard Armor, but that's just what you gotta do.
Or the RPG way: just grind a few levels. I don't like this cause it's boring but it's definitely easy.
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pjbasis posted...

mr game design thinks not playing the game is good game design?

There's a TON of stuff you can do in the medium of games than just fighting things and "fun". KH2's opening explores a lot of those alternate interactions and emotions. "Not playing the game" is such a basic and outdated way to look at it, which is why it was ahead of its time.

Sora's first few parts are so disappointing and unmemorable in comparison since it just goes back to the basic formula. Like I don't remember anything about it beyond his old clothes being tiny on him.
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Like it's no exaggeration to say KH2's opening influenced scenes like the UC2 mountain village
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I literally cannot comprehend how you can praise KH2's opening but gripe and complain about the "slog" of an intro in BotW.
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foolm0r0n posted...

pjbasis posted...

mr game design thinks not playing the game is good game design?

There's a TON of stuff you can do in the medium of games than just fighting things and "fun". KH2's opening explores a lot of those alternate interactions and emotions. "Not playing the game" is such a basic and outdated way to look at it, which is why it was ahead of its time.

Sora's first few parts are so disappointing and unmemorable in comparison since it just goes back to the basic formula. Like I don't remember anything about it beyond his old clothes being tiny on him.

https://youtu.be/HZsDUSxK5Fs
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I don't hate BOTW's intro because it's a slog, lots of game intros are slogs (KH2 included). Some are good and some are bad.
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redrocket_pub posted...

https://youtu.be/HZsDUSxK5Fs

Good point, most gamers do think of games as thoughtlessly as a C-tier comedian doing standup for gamespot
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foolm0r0n posted...

KH1 is close behind... the nostalgia power of Destiny Islands crossed with the wonder of first landing in Traverse Town is pretty much unmatched in any game

I felt zero emotion in Traverse Town. I did not feel like it was an interesting place to explore at all. I just wanted to get on with the game.

Please note I always feel this way in this kind of area. Any major key town to explore with little in the way of direction as to what you're doing there - at least give me a waypoint or something - I get bored. The biggest offender? The Citadel in Mass Effect. Basically, go one of two routes: Either tell me where to go (but not how to get there or what to do) or give me free reign in an open world, allowing me to do what I want when I want. Linear objectives don't mix well with lack of direction, but also don't give me step-by-step instructions on everything (I'm looking at you, Skyward Snore). This sounds like I have an excessively high standard, but I don't. Many games do this well. There are very few games I actively dislike in general.

Destiny Islands were pretty great though. Too bad the rest of the game sucked. I wanted to like KH1 but just couldn't find much to keep me playing. It's one of those rare games I just did not like. IIRC, I first played it in 2008, so it was a long time ago now.
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I literally had to stop playing KH an hour in a few months ago because it was so bats*** insane and I apparently didn't get to the insane stuff yet.
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foolm0r0n posted...

pjbasis posted...

mr game design thinks not playing the game is good game design?

There's a TON of stuff you can do in the medium of games than just fighting things and "fun". KH2's opening explores a lot of those alternate interactions and emotions. "Not playing the game" is such a basic and outdated way to look at it, which is why it was ahead of its time.

Sora's first few parts are so disappointing and unmemorable in comparison since it just goes back to the basic formula. Like I don't remember anything about it beyond his old clothes being tiny on him.

I don't know near enough about game design to comment from that perspective, but speaking purely as a player, the basic formula of the first couple KH games doesn't bother me, because it's a fun formula.

I give the prologue credit for trying something different, and like I said, on a first playthrough it held my attention because the story was presented in an interesting way that made me want to play more. When I go back to the game now, though, I know the story, and I'm playing exclusively for the sake of enjoying the gameplay. And for me, that means I want to get into the deep combat that the game has to offer. The Roxas portion doesn't have that. It's just busy work, and it's not fun no matter how innovative or creative it is.
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I'm not sure I have the patience to replay a series like KH nowadays (and I, II, and the crappy PS2 card game were the only ones I played). The story really is a complete mess, but I remember really falling for the sap back in 2006. The characters, music, and just general tone are made to tug at the heartstrings.
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I don't see how you can compare kh2s opening to uncharted 2.

Like Uncharted 2 had downtime of 10 minutes max, not three hours. Also uncharted is like written well and the selling point is being on an Indiana Jones adventure. Kingdom Hearts is about fighting and action, and more importantly, holy mother of god the Roxas section is nonsense of storytelling.

You clearly haven't replayed it since adolescence.
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KujikawaRising posted...

Please note I always feel this way in this kind of area

Me too, for sure. But the charm is just too strong in TT. It might just be the music too.

NBIceman posted...

I don't know near enough about game design to comment from that perspective, but speaking purely as a player, the basic formula of the first couple KH games doesn't bother me, because it's a fun formula.

Me neither, but imagine waiting years for KH2 and for more of that awesome formula and then you get the massive swerve that is the KH2 opening. It was so POWERFUL. It definitely hasn't aged well, but at the time it was earth shattering. Enough that going back to the Sora formula felt kinda lame.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Me neither, but imagine waiting years for KH2 and for more of that awesome formula and then you get the massive swerve that is the KH2 opening. It was so POWERFUL

This I can kind of agree with

except it dragged on for like 10 hours too long
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Roxas' story is by far the best writing in the series. By an incredibly wide margin. The KH2 intro has issues but its story is very cool

Also Uncharted doesn't have good writing
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KamikazePotato posted...

Also Uncharted doesn't have good writing

Yes it does.

Not in the sense that it tells a grand, compelling story. But in the sense that the dialogue is fun and the characters work well together to form a nice Indiana Jones homage.
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pjbasis posted...

downtime

See this is your problem. It's not downtime, it's a really strong part of the game. You just want the standard action emotions. Which is fine, since most games give you just that. But it's a pretty outdated view.

And KH is not about fighting and action, nor story. It's about charm and characters. That's why we keep buying this garbage even though the story is completely dead and the gameplay and level design was never actually good (even when it got "way better" in BBS).
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The first two KH games were about fighting and action, though. The gameplay is amazing in 2 if you actually know what you're doing and understand every facet of how the combat works. It's the games after that ruined it.

I agree that the prologue had power the first time around, but do you still get that same feeling on replay? I don't. And even that first time, part of the power was how it made me feel like "yeah, this is all cool, but at this point I'm so damn ready to play as Sora and just fight stuff."
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