Board 8 > Board 8 Mafia Discussion Topic 42 - Not Nearly As Prestigous

(+) Yeah! (+)

Luis_Sera89 posted...

Finalised small game

Tarot Mafia (16)

really?
aw
I didnt even know someone else had plans for that

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It wasn't on the queue! I vaguely recalled someone mentioning it in the past but assumed they'd ditched it.

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"Eet's game time..."

So I've been thinking for a few months now and want to broach the subject with the mafia community as a whole about something.

I think the role of Mafia Assassin needs to be lessened within our community.

This is partially self-serving I confess, I have probably ate twice as many of these than anyone else has throughout the years so I don't mind if I am thought of as crazy, but as that player, but also I like to think as a respected scum player as well, mafia assassin is too strong of a role in games that don't have, say, 25+.

We very rarely use Mafia Vig. I feel as if Mafia Assassin is just kind of thrown into games because it is nearly a standard now. I think we see scum win a lot because they are able to, with little thought, target the best player in any one game night 1 and say "that's it. They are done." And on top of that usually are able to usually get a second kill.

I like the Mafia Vig for an extra kill
I like the Mafia Strongman to take out a scanner or, god help me, me.

I just think it is time to go back to the drawing board, not as a community trying to ban a role or something silly like that, but as a group of people who host. Almost every game scheduled to be hosted is from either a vet host or a vet player. I would like to hear some thoughts. I know I am biased, it can't be helped, but I think with the rate in which we see scum win games it isn't an unfair thing to point out.

Thoughts?

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The Cult of Personality.

Welcome to three years ago.

But seriously, I've been criticised in the past for not giving scum an Assassin, so yes, I do think people have considered it as fundamental as giving them a Roleblocker. I've always said I've thought it was an easy 'get out of jail card' for the mafia, when there are other ways of balancing killing power that aren't so braindead.

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"Eet's game time..."

I am sorry that I am not as perceptive as you are, Luis.

My brain takes a little bit to get fired up, :P

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I feel your pain of dying night one a lot.

Even though in my case you're usually the one doing the killing of me.

I agree that assassin isn't a 'must have' role though, but I'm in favor of less extra killing roles in general. They're good in either very little quantities or the novelty of extremely high quantities.

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I would think the reasoning behind its common place is to give scum a more fair shot at being able to kill someone through town protection and/or a bodyguard among other things. It seems like a tool that is often abused far too fast in games, imo, but one that should be saved for a proper time. That's why when I've used it, I've usually said it counts as your nightkill for the night, making people think about when to use it a bit better, as they don't consider it a second kill at that point.

That's my two cents, anyway.

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You're talking about a strongman then.

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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE]
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the last 'assassin' i used couldn't extra kill, just apply a strongman effect to the normal kill. a full-fledged assassin is incredibly strong and, yeah, shouldn't be seen much (can't comment on actual frequency since i haven't followed recent games).

on the flip side, town protective roles also shouldn't be guaranteed imho
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Well I was balancing my Doom/Pokemon Crossover Mafia and I think I've come up with some clever solutions to a few things in regards to power.

It'd be one thing if scum struggled on board 8, you know? But it has a pretty high clear rate.

...I wasn't expecting so much agreement so fast <_<

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But isn't a vig and strongman combo practically just the same as a normal assassin + mafia kill combo?

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VI is not afraid of 7.
Because if 7 8 9, VI ate 7.

From: VeryInsane | #261

But isn't a vig and strongman combo practically just the same as a normal assassin + mafia kill combo?

I didn't say in the same game, VI.

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The Cult of Personality.

Giving a scum faction separate Vig and Strongman roles is probably fairer than a single Assassin role, depending on the size of the game.

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"Eet's game time..."

From: Luis_Sera89 | #263

Giving a scum faction separate Vig and Strongman roles is probably fairer than a single Assassin role, depending on the size of the game.

But that's also true in the sense that they would end up with one less power as well.

But I meant "this game scum gets an unblockable" and "this game scum gets an extra"

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The Cult of Personality.

I liked my pyp assassin. But yeah its overused, janitor is a bigger issue though, tbh

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Saying we need less Assassins is one thing, but it's pretty difficult to regulate the frequency of roles. Take the example Yoshi just mentioned - Janitor. That isn't supposed to be a common role. It's a quirky addition to a scum faction that gives them a slight edge and causes a small degree of confusion among the town. If we saw it every game though, it'd get obnoxious pretty quickly. How do you tell someone not to include one though if there had been a recent spate of them? What makes one game more deserving than another? Then take into account that people finish making their games 6 months before they're even used.

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"Eet's game time..."

From: Achromatic | #262

From: VeryInsane | #261

But isn't a vig and strongman combo practically just the same as a normal assassin + mafia kill combo?

I didn't say in the same game, VI.

Right.

But really, scum has practically had the same setup with very little deviation between games since I started playing. And with how dominant scum has been, maybe there is something that needs to be changed...

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VI is not afraid of 7.
Because if 7 8 9, VI ate 7.

From: Luis_Sera89 | #266

Saying we need less Assassins is one thing, but it's pretty difficult to regulate the frequency of roles. Take the example Yoshi just mentioned - Janitor. That isn't supposed to be a common role. It's a quirky addition to a scum faction that gives them a slight edge and causes a small degree of confusion among the town. If we saw it every game though, it'd get obnoxious pretty quickly. How do you tell someone not to include one though if there had been a recent spate of them? What makes one game more deserving than another? Then take into account that people finish making their games 6 months before they're even used.

The simplest solution would simply be to ban the role for games under a certain amount.

The simplest, but that's going to get me booed out of the building I assume.

Like I said I am not in favor of banning things, it is blunt and uninteresting, but if there was a large majority... well.

Majority does seem to rule at times.

I don't know, hard to implement stuff.

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Need a replacement. First PM from the users below gets it.

SpeedYoshi
Arti
greengravy
Newer
OIO
AzureZero

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Hrezs posted...

I liked my pyp assassin. But yeah its overused, janitor is a bigger issue though, tbh

Janitor is such a fun role when you're scum and such an awful role when you're town. I can see why hosts are drawn to it, you make the scum team very happy. It justifies pouring power roles all over town. It makes certain townies eager to kill power roles >_>

Chris I agree about the assassin shot, I sent you that IM last night with the unstoppable mafia kill in mind.

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Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.

Might I point out...

There was no Assassin or Roleblocker in Final Fantasy 6 ^_^.

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Yeah, there were no unfair or unbalanced roles in FF6 at all. ^_^

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Hey, people were talking about overusing roles and what not... it's a Baku game, people should expect something crazy. And the balance was perfectly fine fwiw lol.

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Still need a replacement. First person to PM me, even if you're not on the above list, gets it.

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Make that two replacements.

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Get Lopen

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Replacement situation has been taken care of

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Could we not just make a weaker form of assassin for smaller games? Like I dunno, make it unuseable N1.

Or make it a poisoner variant that is an unblockable kill but has to be set up the previous night like poisoner and doesn't work if the assassin dies before performing the kill. Then either scum get a refund or its wasted entirely if the target dies before the next night.

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Crucifying my Oracle average one match at a time

Well my question is why do you think there needs to be one? Scum already has a good win %. Why do there need to be an extra unblockable kill?

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The Cult of Personality.

To kill you night 1 obviously. Or if Shattered Elysium has his way, night 2!

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I know I haven't been active in awhile but would anyone like to check my Threads of Fate Mafia?

I have the setup made just have to write flavor.

OR should I write flavor before I even have you check it.

Anyways... HELP!! lol

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Shining Force IV will rise!

Hey, I didn't want to assassinate Chris N1 in Guild Wars!

Do we have a running total for recent town win/losses and whether the games had assassins in?

From what I can see Town is 5 wins, 5 losses over the last 10 games but some endgame topics are god awful and it's hard to see who even won, let alone what roles were used.


I'm not again making Assassins more uncommon. I just think Town already gets it stacked in their favour and maybe it's because I'm not an avid player/follower but mafia's win record doesn't seem to be overwhelmingly better than towns.

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Crucifying my Oracle average one match at a time

I do not believe that the Assassin role is what causes Town to lose. I think Chris just wants to live past Night 1 more frequently. Mafia teams tend to win solely on the docile nature of the players they leave alive.

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From: Achromatic | #279

Well my question is why do you think there needs to be one? Scum already has a good win %. Why do there need to be an extra unblockable kill?

most scum, including myself, just want to get through the day and let night actions do the work. I'm guessing many hosts developed as players using similar tactics. it's a way to help scum deal with someone they can't manage in-topic. actively playing as scum is hard, and even if you're trying to coast, it can be stressful. I think hosts cater to that. recent games (for me) included 2 or 3 of: assassin, janitor, paralyzer. I don't think we should ever have paralyzer in our games and those other 2 should be used sparingly.

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to measure the meaning can make you delay
it's time you stopped thinking and wasting the day

I use Paralyzer because it's basically a more workable silencer

If I ever use it again I'm going to have a clause about having to use it before do or die though

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From: neonreap | #284

From: Achromatic | #279

Well my question is why do you think there needs to be one? Scum already has a good win %. Why do there need to be an extra unblockable kill?

most scum, including myself, just want to get through the day and let night actions do the work. I'm guessing many hosts developed as players using similar tactics. it's a way to help scum deal with someone they can't manage in-topic. actively playing as scum is hard, and even if you're trying to coast, it can be stressful. I think hosts cater to that. recent games (for me) included 2 or 3 of: assassin, janitor, paralyzer. I don't think we should ever have paralyzer in our games and those other 2 should be used sparingly.

I am not against the strongman. Let me make that clear. I believe scum should be able to kill either the best player in the game or a power role that has claimed later on. I do not believe they should have the power to kill me day 1 despite me playing admittedly horrible (Guild Wars) and then have the power to kill town power as an afterthought.

I say its self-serving but honestly this isn't really. I am probably going to still die a lot even if there is no extra kill. I imagine scum will choose me a lot regardless of if it is not the extra kill. What this will do is make scum have to actually make a decision night 1 on who they kill. In many games it is "okay let's kill chris and then just pick someone else." Not always, but it has happened a lot. Scum shouldn't be able to kill the best player without even thinking about it. Kill me if you must, kill anyone if you must, but there should be some thought behind it is what I am saying.

From: BakusaiTenketsu | #283

I do not believe that the Assassin role is what causes Town to lose. I think Chris just wants to live past Night 1 more frequently. Mafia teams tend to win solely on the docile nature of the players they leave alive.

And with an extra unblockable kill they get to an all docile game quicker. I am not going to disagree with you, but unless you offer some solution to the docile nature of players than it is useless to point it out. I am looking for solutions not statements.

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I feel like I am the only one who like to try to hang onto assassin shots when my team gets one.

Also, I'm pretty sure I have a good fix for assassins in my games, but I'm gonna keep it under my hat for now

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Achromatic posted...

From: BakusaiTenketsu | #283
I do not believe that the Assassin role is what causes Town to lose. I think Chris just wants to live past Night 1 more frequently. Mafia teams tend to win solely on the docile nature of the players they leave alive.

And with an extra unblockable kill they get to an all docile game quicker. I am not going to disagree with you, but unless you offer some solution to the docile nature of players than it is useless to point it out. I am looking for solutions not statements.

Let's put this in a "common scum power role power rankings" format, if you will.

1. Roleblocker
2. Detective (Basically 1a., which is why I have learned that you can't give scum a multi-use of both. You give one, then one jack use of the other, max.)
3. Untargetable

Here's where it becomes more YMMV, but I'm leaning

4. Scum Tracker
5. Godfather
6. BP
7. Mafia Doc (okay, it's not that common)
8. Jack (depending on abilities)
9. Assassin (basically, it's the most powerful of the one-use powers)
10. Revenger (stronger than Mafia Vig because you can't roleblock the dead)
11. Mafia Vig
12. Bomb (less powerful of the extra killing roles because of the limited selection)
13. Strongman (It's not an extra kill.)
14. Silencer (although if you use it you will probably get kicked in the nuts, hard)
15. Paralyzer (Useful only at lylo)

This is a rough copy and certainly up for debate (and I'm probably missing stuff), but maybe it'll help out on this "Is assassin too powerful" topic.

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Untargetable is hardly common.

Revenger should basically be banned
Bomb too.

Unless you're ranking these by power in which case sure. But Mafia doc is a bit high

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Scum Untargetable isn't a very powerful role tbh. They're scum more often than they're town, and usually if someone gets a failed action returned to them, they'll cry foul. Also, Revenger, Bomb and Silencer are all taboo roles. And Strongman is a lot better than that.

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"Eet's game time..."

Some jacks have the assassin shot built in, for instance.

As far as the mechanic goes I would say Assassin is the # 2 most powerful ability.

1. Roleblocker
2. Assassin
3. Janitor

I don't think BP/Untargetable are that strong simply because they don't have wide range scope on the game. They provide proection/denial of information on themselves, but they don't usually shape how the game is played.

Denying town information can be very good so I have high respect for Janitor.

Bomb/Silencer/Any role like them is banned now and for good reason.

I think we need to see more Vanillas and more Jacks. Instead of having strongman be a role have it be a jack skill. idk.

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_Regaro_ posted...

Untargetable is hardly common.

Revenger should basically be banned
Bomb too.

Unless you're ranking these by power in which case sure. But Mafia doc is a bit high

I was going by strength of role, and how did I forget janitor? Put that… either directly ahead or behind assassin.

As far as the mechanic goes I would say Assassin is the # 2 most powerful ability.

1. Roleblocker
2. Assassin
3. Janitor

Eh, scanner's set the rest of your scumgame up potentially, and I'd rather have the potential to save scummate(s) than assassin kill, IMO. (Can make you look good if bussing, and number purposes.)

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mant, no offense, but your list is haywire

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CherryCokes posted...

mant, no offense, but your list is haywire

None taken. Feel free to make your own/come up with reasonings as you see fit.

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From: CherryCokes | #287

I feel like I am the only one who like to try to hang onto assassin shots when my team gets one.

Hey, I do too. They are good for taking out scanners that claim early or are forced to claim.

Well, it depends on who has the assassin shot, actually. And the outcome of Day 1 as well. (Such as whether the Assassin player looks good)

I feel BP/Untargetable/Doctor are all pretty overrated scum roles IMO. Maybe it's just me speaking, but none of them will be important factors in a mafia game aside from maybe eating up a vig shot/allowing the sk to mask itself.

My top 5 strongest scum roles that aren't extremely out of the ordinary/straight up banned. probably looks something like...

1. Roleblocker (Duh)
2. Assassin (Surefire Extra Kill)
3. Janitor (Underrated and has changed numerous mafia games into scum's favor)
4. Detective (A role that I've been feeling has been misused lately by scumteams, but has the potential to be really strong)
5. ...I'll go with Ninja on this one. In a game without a cop and with a tracker and watcher, it's pretty freaking strong.
Paralyzer, Vig, Poisoner, and Strongman are all honorable mentions. If the poison's multi-use, bump it up past Assassin IMO.

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VI is not afraid of 7.
Because if 7 8 9, VI ate 7.

paralyze is auto-win at mylo. that's too strong and sneaky, considering how much time people put into games here - it's essentially a role that makes the entire surviving scum team unlynchable when town needs to lynch them most.

meisnewbie used vote-buyer in VN mafia, that's probably the effect we want to strive for. ability to mess with a lynch, can't be used at mylo/endgame situations.

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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.

For what it's worth, I don't care much for Paralyzer simply on the grounds of it being a (usually) much less potent version of Scum Double Voter/Scum Mayor, in that the mafia has enough control of the lynch through words and their votes already and the remainder of lynch manipulation should be left to town (unless its just a wacky game in general, where you're deliberately using crazy roles) since its their main tool. I actually don't like Mayor much either for what it does, although being a confirmable role that can only confirm itself with a potentially stupid decision is a decent enough solution. Maybe its just me but lynch/vote manipulation roles in general kind of bug me.

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Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.

I'm not a fan of Scum Mayor/Scum Doublevoter. Scum Mayor kinda falls in the "Never penalize town on a scum lynch" and I think doublevoter, kinda like mayor, driver, prosty, is 99.9% of the time a town role.

What was the vote-buyer's conditions?

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Try imitating a Pokemon for maximum effect. I like to imitate Charizard. *****es always go for Charizard. -BlackDoomShadow on kissing a girl

Scum Mayor technically doesn't inherently punish Town for a scum lynch. Scum Mayor's mean because mayor is considered confirmable town - like Prosty used to be.

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"Occulams razor says you are scum" - masterplum

scum mayor is mean because it outright prevents town from lynching scum if used "properly"

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