Lurker > joe40001

Metal_Bug posted...

I was honestly considering Star Trek. I've never gotten into it before, but the other topic about ST, conveniently up while I'm reading Saga, is what made me make this topic.

Yeah, the one downside is that it starts slow.

Many people first encountered it in syndication, and the random episode grabbag kinda helped get people into it. But it gets so damn good once it finds it's footing that it's worth it.

TNG is the series to start with, either in order and just tough it through the slower parts of season 1, or just watch random episodes.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

Cancel culture doesn't fucking exist!

Strongly disagree.

How the fuck can you unironically discount all crazy shit from the right as extremist idioicy, but then legitimately fear the Far-Left and whoever the fuck those people are as having the power to "cancel" MLK?

Because twitter, facebook, most major companies, almost all newspapers and academic institutions pander to the left and far left, and almost none pander to the right. The right simply hasn't captured that many respectable institutions. I never feel any pushback when being critical of the right, I get a lot of pushback when being critical of the left. I really haven't heard of anybody being fired for speaking out against far-right things, I've heard plenty of people fired for speaking out against far-left things.

Nobody calls me a racist, facist, or idiot if I'm critical of Trump. Tons of people lob those and many more insults at me for saying true things that are counter current left narrative.

Aside from the corruption in government (where the right has done some very real damage) the right doesn't have that much power over the other institutions we all interact with.

"The left" is demonstrably less of a cohesive hivemind in the political and social sphere.

Yes and no. Yes they are less cohesive. But I think the extremes of it can be even more punitive if you don't fall in line. These "woke" twitter mobs really aren't even "left" in any traditional sense, but whatever they are they weird disproportionate power recklessly.

Everyone you agree with is intelligent and non-partisan and logically has lost faith in certain institutions and everyone you disagree with is an idiot extremist who lacks the ability to criticize the establishment.

Not entirely. I am often refreshed when I find people who I disagree with who come to that disagreement legitimately. It isn't what I encounter that often though.

And honestly, I don't see such people who honestly disagree with me as on "another team".

To me the teams aren't "left vs right" it's much more "critical thinking vs hivemind mobs".

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

berlyman101 posted...

Twin Peaks

There is nothing familiar or relatable about twin peaks.

It's like "weird for weird sake" incarnate.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Avatar is a good one.

Honestly a lot of Trek is unfamiliar setting but the people feel quite real.

Pick some random S3-S5 TNG episodes and give them a shot.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

The abolition of all civil rights

I don't think that would pass.

The voting access stuff is shady though, that does have me concerned.

But otherwise I think your civil rights are largely safe.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

This isn't critical thinking. Arranging our terrorists into proper tier changes nothing functional. Maybe do some introspection and call yourself out, if you're capable.

What?

Critical thinking is all about context, precision, and nuance. Painting with broad generalizing brushes is antithetical to it.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

mustachedmystic posted...

They used violence for political aims. That is literally the definition of terrorism.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=terrorism+definition

You can have that definition... but that would make pretty much any politically motivated riot "terrorism". And I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

Particularly considering the legal implications.

I'll be straight up: If you insist the capitol rioters were terrorists, and courts uphold that. It could establish precedent that politically motivated rioters are terrorists. And if that precedent is set, I really don't see how that doesn't really hurt some like BLM or something protest in alabama down the line.

I don't think that's a road we want to go down, the government can kinda throw out people's rights if they label you a terrorist.

The capitol rioters were criminals, many of which could be called violent. They deserve appropriate legal prosecution.

I don't think we want to bust out the T word though. That does not lead us down a good road.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

No one gives a rat's fuck what terrorists are worse. Use some critical thinking and stop being tricked by the Republican institution into pushing their misinformation campaign. They want you to focus on the unimportant parts

I'm not tricked by anybody. I was disagreeing with the OP.

It hasn't been my focus in any meaningful way. I strongly disapprove of the capitol riots, but I think most sensible people do.

I only spoke up because a lack of nuance was being used and I do feel strongly about speaking up against that.

I am on the side of critical thinking, I'll call out people for saying dumb shit though.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

Who is being censored for being a Republican? My life is basically over if a Republican wins again though

How do you figure?

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Trumble posted...

There are two options.

Option one, you allow all information including "misinformation". (This doesn't mean you don't flag it or call it out etc.)

Option two, you designate someone the arbiter of what is or isn't fact. And then hope like hell that the people who peddle what you (in this particular case, rightly so) see as "misinformation" don't in the future take the place of those arbiters.

There is no physically possible way to ensure that only the actual truth can ever be spread - because any possible system of censoring misinformation relies on having someone to decide what is or isn't misinformation. And just because someone you trust is in that position when the system is first set up, doesn't mean the next person who takes over will be as trustworthy. Heck, just think about what would happen if, say, the Trump administration had been in charge of deciding what is or isn't "truth" and allowed to be posted on social media.

Fight misinformation by teaching people how to see the fuck through it.

Well said.

Rhylos posted...

Stupid people are going to stupid. You'd need 1984 levels of control to keep them out of their echo chamber. Censorship is bad and it's a really dangerous slippery slope to get on. Just let people do their own thing jfc, and only censor things that're actually illegal (calls to action, cp, etc.)

I'm sure none of ya'll would like it if censorship policies were enacted and then republicans win the next cycle. Suddenly ya'll will be anti-censorship if it's the big bad republicans in charge of it, and I'll be right there with you. Fuck censorship.

Yeah, censorship (particularly of opinions and ideas) creates far more problems than it solves.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Samurontai posted...

We will have to agree to disagree on this, tbh.

Fair enough.

If you want to respond and give your thoughts I am curious on them, and I can just listen and not respond.

You don't have to, but I would be curious.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

DezDroppedFreak posted...

They literally do this and people just say the fact checkers are biased and liberal lmao. These people are lost

Well the issue is they have been wrong already.

I think it's a thing of some people thinking "we have good intentions' and so they overplay their hand.

Like they say things are "false" when they are undetermined. They say things are "debunked" when they are in dispute.

It's like the thing where for a bit they were like "don't wear masks" and then later its like "we might have been lying about that to not get a rush on masks". At that point it's not a truth thing but a political thing, and you can play that game, but you are (as we see) going to lose a lot of people's trusts.

A lot of the people in charge needed to say "we don't know" a lot more often early on rather than saying something false with certainty and then quietly pivot and expect everybody not to notice.

That kind of thing is what eroded trust in institutions.

In short, if you are diligent as fuck you can be authorities on truth, or you can be a political organization trying to optimize public policy in the way you think will be most effective, but you can't be both.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

Yeah like earthquakes and pandemics happening because we legalized abortion and trans people.

I'm not sure what the point you are trying to make here is.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Rhylos posted...

Pro-censorship is fucking stupid.

I don't like censorship either. I do think Samurontai was more commenting on what they might have seen as a broad brush and lack of nuance to the claim, but I could be wrong.

I think Samurontai is reasonable, so hopefully the conversation can drift back to more civil.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I mean, let the posts remain, but tag them with a huge ass disclaimer stating the information in the post is false. Just like Twitter did with Trump's tweets.

That way, they can just look stupid all on their own.

If they do this though, they need to be 100% sure the thing they are calling false is in fact false.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Samurontai posted...

I can agree with most of that, but I find it jarring to call censorship authoritarian, when it's just the free market working as intended. It'd be different if it was state censorship, but it's not.

I can understand that, but my 3 points of pushback are:

1. The free market has problems, so it working as intended doesn't mean it's serving the public interest
2. This seems largely political not free market, I do think if we did have free market competition for facebook without the authoritarian elements it would outcompete facebook, but there is at the very least some fingers on the scales as far as what extent competition in silicon valley is allowed
3. The more of a monopoly it is, the more we must consider it as an extension of the government IMO. If everybody has a right to drinking water, but the only drinking water was distributed by 1 company, that company's policies would in effect become law, and so long as we have legal protections those things should apply to that company.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Trumble posted...

Most conspiracist nutjobs were set in their ways long before they were old enough to know what "Facebook" was. At best, it's guilty of helping them share new nutjob ideas with each other.

I also disagree with this.

A lot of anti-vaxx stuff came from health conscious "organic moms" who care about 'natural things', and dumbass optimizing for engagement facebook said "huh, lots of gluten free hippie organic moms are clicking this anti-vaxx shit, let's share it more!"

I know it makes things easier to think everybody who believes conspiracies are low IQ people who were a lost cause from the get go, but I don't think that's the case.

Social media is powerful, ("the social dilemma" is a good documentary on this) and it's mostly a case of lizard brain attention stuff being hijacked before the critical thinking part of the brain is allowed to get involved.

Having facebook police misinformation that their algortihms help spread is the wrong solution though IMO. It's like getting an arsonist to also be a firefighter, rather than teaching them to be less of an arsonist.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Samurontai posted...

I appreciate your consistency, but Facebooks inability to punish information in a reliable manner is probably the main cause of people not wanting to get vaccinated.

I disagree, I think some blame can be put at facebook's feet, but it comes much more from their business model. Their business model is about "attention" and not "value" as such it funnels towards shallowness. Even if the shallowness is in service of something true it doesn't serve to boost trust in institutions.

They stand a much better chance of helping fight misinformation by correcting their algorithm than by us trusting them to be the artibiters of scientific truth.

This whole "we need them to shut down misinformation" is not the way to go for many reasons, but a huge one is that such a program works if the consumer trusts facebook, and frankly why would anybody trust facebook at this point?

Social media is part of the problem, but it is an econmics/bad incentives problem rather than "not enough authoritarian censorship of 'misinformation'" IMO

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

If anyone gets distracted or changes what they believe in because of hyperbole and annoying noise, then they are a barely sentient idiot who lacks the higher functions to be convinced with facts and logic.

Ok, and?

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

Shut the fuck up with your bullshit

What do you think I am wrong about?

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Not everyday , there aren't that many sources I trust that much anyway.

But I do try to stay fairly up to date on important things.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Gwynevere posted...

This. It just gives conservatives something to argue with that deflects away from the attempted insurrection.

As evidenced by this very topic

I agree it's a bad strategy.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Bishop9800 posted...

Judging from your posts, you don't.

What is something I am wrong about?

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

No, I am not a monster.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

CyricZ posted...

Didn't prevent him from being murdered.

And?

Like if he had been violent that would've helped how?

A person can be murdered without any fault of their own actions.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

In modern times, MLK would still be called a Far-Left violent extremist that supports terrorists even with the full quote.

Maybe by some idiots. But I honestly believe MLK would find himself unwelcome by much of the modern woke left. I honestly would not be surprised if in the next 5-10 years the far left tries to cancel him.

His desire to end racism is antithetical to something like what Kendi or Diangelo argues for.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

What in the actual fuck do you gain from being a pedant?

I don't like it when people say batshit crazy things and we are all supposed to nod and be like "yep, preach!".

Lack of nuance or critical thinking is a big part of what's wrong with modern society, and statements like:
"Those rioters are no better than the terrorists on 9/11."

Is emblematic of that problem.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

KStateKing17 posted...

And then he was imprisoned, spied on and murdered anyway.

Call me crazy, but I tend to think he did a lot of good in the cause of expanding civil rights and equality.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

hockeybub89 posted...

"A riot is the voice of the unheard"

"And I would be the first to say that I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non -violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view. I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity."

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Shezarr posted...

And here he comes right on cue

Posting things consistent with my values, how ridiculous.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

This one is hard.

I think Morrigan is hotter, but Taki has like iconic near nude paint boobs. She's the only person I can think of where it's like "nope, they are just hanging and swinging freely"

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

I'm not sure what you 3 get out of your little circlejerk.

But yeah if "capitol rioters are obviously not as bad as 9/11 attackers" is an "incredibly shitty opinion" I guess I have "incredibly shitty opinions".

And I feel sorry for anybody who is so out of touch that they take true statements and see them as "incredibly shitty" because, idk they go counter narrative or something.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

I'm lonely

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

It's interesting I don't like either side on this.

Facebook fucks things up because of their dumbass business model, not because they haven't been authoritarian enough in their sloppy "anti-misinformation" campaigns.

I generally like Biden, but here I think he has framed the problem wrong. People aren't getting vaccinated as much as they likely should because many people lack faith in institutions, and facebook has played a big part in that.

The issue is that the fix for that isn't facebook thought policing with unrigorous pop-science.

It's to make it so attention isn't the driving market force in these massive evil companies.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

NightMarishPie posted...

Please do not respond to joe.

I think other people can make decisions for themselves.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

What_ posted...

Thats not even the point of this topic why are you trying to make that a thing when its not a thing?

The OP:
" Those rioters are no better than the terrorists on 9/11."

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

armandro posted...

i watch political streamers

good faith is a buzz word

just throw that around along with strawman

Yeah, ironically some people use the term in bad faith.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

DarthAragorn posted...

Joe "I'm a liberal" numbers

I am a liberal.

Is the bar for "liberal" "Capitol riots were as bad as 9/11"? because no, I'm not that. Whatever that is is dumb, and has nothing to do with liberal values, (or critical thinking, for that matter).

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

NinjaWarrior455 posted...

1/6 was an act of terrorism and all the capitol rioters are terrorists. Full stop.

You can maybe make this argument if you strain, but you can't make the argument it was as bad as 9/11.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Umbreon posted...

Not sure why you're talking to me Joe. I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't speak in good faith.

Are you accusing me of not arguing in good faith?

If so that's pretty rich. I bend over backwards to try to engage with people who aren't fair to me back. People tell me what I believe and misrepresent my own views to my face, and then just "nope" when I tell them they are wrong. As if they have any business telling another person what they think.

If you want to avoid somebody calling you out for being inaccurate that's on you, but it's not on me.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

I remember when I was saying similar things to what most people in this topic were saying, but a bit sooner than it was fashionable.

I got called a racist a lot for that.

These people seem to be able to understand the patriot act was a bad thing, but then they are like "oh you have problems with the 'anti-racist' movement? You are racist!" "Oh you have problems with the BLM movement? You don't care about black lives!"

It's like people never heard of branding. Or like people would support murdering puppies of the organization was called "the make the world perfect organization".

Actually now that I think about it, lots of these people are probably the type of people who support PETA for this very reason.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Umbreon posted...

Joking aside, even then 1/6 would count as terrorism because they murdered a cop.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Umbreon posted...

Joking aside, even then 1/6 would count as terrorism because they murdered a cop.

Pretty sure that person was maced but died from natural causes.

And the point isn't that it wasn't bad, but that somebody having a stroke a riot is not as bad as:
[Insert 9/11 footage]

Like I said, 10 people were killed at my local grocery store from a mass shooting. If you have empathy for the rioters, as I'm sure most of you do, that is 10x as many people dead at my thing. And I'm sure none of you remember the day there, because it doesn't fit into a clean narrative.

There is a lot of shitty things going around, but even so we can't just throw perspective out the window for the sake of hyperbole.

Like I said, more people died at other riots, this was bad, but it's beyond ignorant to say it's as bad as 9/11.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Do people not understand something can be bad and also simultaneously not as bad as the deadliest terrorist act in world history?

Or are people no longer capable of even that level of distinction?

This is different than other topics where like, I can see where the people disagreeing with me are coming from. Here, if you legitimately think the capitol riots are as bad or worse than 9/11, frankly I lose a lot of respect for your ability to think or communicate critically.

It's like saying 2+2=5 or an insult is as bad as murder. This isn't sensible or coherent.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

What_ posted...

And there he goes again trying to argue pointless semantics

It's not even close man.
During the September 11 attacks in 2001, 2,977 people were killed, 19 hijackers committed murdersuicide, and more than 6,000 others were injured.[1][2] The immediate deaths included 265 on the four planes (including the terrorists), 2,606 in the World Trade Center and in the surrounding area, and 125 at the Pentagon.[3][4] The attacks remain the deadliest terrorist act in world history.[5]

Have people forgotten history, or are you just this delusionally political now?

I never thought I'd get to the point where some "liberals" are like "I'm not saying jihadists are great, but... republicans are just as bad".

10 times more people got killed at a mass shooting at my local grocery store. The capitol riots were shitty, but it by definition wasn't an act of terrorism. It was a bad riot informed by ignorance, but only 1 person was killed and like 4 more died from health shit come up.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-killed-protests-political-unrest-acled

It's not even the most violent riot of the last year or so.

What happened to context? Does everything have to be "the worst thing that has happened in this county's history"? Can't we just say it was very bad, and talk about it for what it was?

I mean fuck it, if we are comparing it to 9/11 why stop there? Are you really telling me the capitol hill rioters are better than Germany in WWII? They are both authoritarian and racist! Sure the nukes we dropped on Japan killed a lot of people, but like it didn't threaten democracy like these rioters? So in most ways those nukes weren't as bad as the rioters.

North Korea oppresses people to the point where they have to resort to cannibalism on their own children, but like have you seen trump supporters? They yell on fox news and tucker carlson makes that punchable face, so that's gotta worse than genocide, right? They are surely worse. We are only critical of NK because we don't understand their culture. It's white ethnocentrism that makes us not "get" why cannibalism, sex slavery, genocide are "wrong". So let's not "white mansplain" to cruel places elsewhere in the world until we've got our own house in order.

Some of you have taken crazy pills, no sensible person thinks the capitol hill riots were as bad as 9/11. They can still be plenty bad without pretending they were as bad as 9/11.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

TheVipaGTS posted...

What? What makes them better? That they failed to kill people despite wanting to?

Well that their goal was not mass murder, for starters.

This isn't even one I feel bad about, anybody who compares the capitol riots to the 9/11 attacks is either being quite dumb or bad faith.

How do you not see the difference in a group of people tricked into thinking a democratic election was stolen vs people whose literal goal was terrorism?

Am I being trolled in this topic?

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbthMC6spAE

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

TheVipaGTS posted...

it was a terrorist attack and an attempt to overthrow our government. Those rioters are no better than the terrorists on 9/11.

https://i.imgur.com/6TTc8hc.mp4

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

KawiKa posted...

Exactly.

People pretending she is hot or interesting are so weird.

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9

Because I'm fat and hate myself for it.

Why can't others engage in responsible self-hate too?

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"joe is attractive and quite the brilliant poster" - Seiichi Omori
https://imgur.com/TheGsZ9