Lurker > colliding

this game looks like goty material for sure

got it preordered

bringing back palpatine is still such a dumb idea

(not so) hot take - I tune out whenever vision or scarlett witch are on screen. total snoozers. should've killed wanda off in endgame and not brought back vision.

the fanfiction is strong in this one

I'm not interested in Vision unless it's an adaptation of King's trippy weird domestica vision from the limited series

I just can't get into the idea of marvel tv shows on disney+

I just have serious doubts that they'll be good

in other news, apparently kit harrington is joining the mcu. wolverine? get rose leslie as jean?

I'm just saying it's "post final boss" stuff is almost more disappointing than octopath's considering that you're right, the game does provide a lot of really good party interactions up to that point

Garfield vs. Spider-Man: Dawn of Nermal

htaeD posted...

My only major disappointment was the lack of character reactions mostly with said final secret boss

doesn't stop people from loving final fantasy 7

Nelson_Mandela posted...

It wasn't the "story" per se that made me quit octopath 8 hours in. It was the absolutely embarrassing dialogue.

The story would have to be really unique and compelling for me to overlook what was a painfully written game.

whaten? you didn't liken the dialogue?

some pretty cynical responses here so far, as expected. oh well! I'm sorry the game wasn't satisfying for you. Also this:

TotallyNotMI posted...

"There's a lot of story, you just have to imagine it" is certainly not a take I've ever heard before.

isn't what I'm saying. I'm not saying "there's a lot of story." I'm saying that what is there inspires people to fill in the blanks and invites players to co-write the story. Again, if you want a story handed to you, like a film, then sure, it doesn't do that. you can argue that this inherently makes it bad or lacking, but that's not my approach.

this doesn't excuse any and all games with "bad stories." there are games that take this approach and fail (I'm thinking of Saga Frontier in particular).

finally, there are a lot of games that force feed players rigidly construed bad or boring stories - I'd rather have a spartan approach that encourages imagination than something like this.

Back to Octopath now.

The way FFVI and CT work is that they don't abandon narrative; rather they start out with a critical conflict and then give the player a handful of well-developed characters and a narrative skeleton on which to build. CT has Marle getting sucked into the past and the discovery of Lavos. FFVI has Terra on the run and the party reuniting to fight Kefka. Octopath admittedly doesn't have anything like this. Instead it has 8 separate, smaller, more personal crises that propel individual journeys. The game here expects players to provide their own motivations for the group traveling together. Here is where, I believe, most people begin to take issue with the story.

However, the game provides attentive players with plenty of motivations aside from the tried and true "you need more party members so you don't die" strategy. Players just have to swing the axe themselves.

Primrose wants to use Alfyn for her own ends, before ultimately becoming actual friends.
Therion similarly wants to steal whatever ultimate treasure Tressa finds
Alfyn comes across a wounded H'aanit in the town tavern and helps her for free

If you didn't absolutely relish coming up with these imaginary scenarios then I truly feel sorry for you. If all early JRPG's are essentially dungeons and dragons for people with no friends then Octopath is the platonic ideal of that model. You get out what you put in. This applies for critiques 1 and 2 in particular. The "additional scenes" of party banter aren't meant to be "Tales of" esque skits... they're meant to jumpstart your imagination so you can do more of this work on your own. It's not that the party members are silent/non-existent when Primrose is betrayed in her story...it's (fill in the blank). This is not a flaw or a plot hole. This is the game inviting you to be a co-author.

The third major complaint - that all the stories are the same - is only true if you allow it to be true. How Alfyn hunts a mythical creature is bound to be different than how H'aanit would. Olberic's quest for revenge is different than Primrose's. Players are given the freedom to tackle chapters in whatever order they wish with whichever character they choose (side note: I DO think the game is flawed in that it won't allow you to change out your initial character). Now if you want to complain about the maps themselves being too similar... that's fine. That's not a story flaw, but a design one.

I think I'm done. I hope I've been convincing. Best case scenario is I get someone who wrote the game off to try it again. But if you still disagree with me that's fine too. People have different tastes and I respect that. I just wanted to speak my peace.

I'm going to diverge here for a second to talk about Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger. Critical consensus from fans and critics alike speak to these jrpg's being monumental games. If you dislike these games, then I completely understand why you don't like Octopath and you can quit reading now (if you ever started to begin with). However, many of the people who have criticized Octopath love FFVI and CT, even though they are similar. Now, I'm not saying that Octopath is better or even as good as these games, but again... they work the same way.

Here are some of my favorite parts about FFVI narrative:

- Sabin's one-sided crush on Celes
- The "old gang" (Sabin, Shadow, and Gau) going to rescue Cyan from his dream
- Cyan breaking down in the Underground Castle
- Relm going to confront Ultros at the coliseum
- Strago using Life 3 to figure out how to beat the Magic Master at the top of the Cult Tower

Attentive readers will notice that none of this stuff "actually" happened. But in my mind they absolutely did. And in many ways, these "head canon" scenes are much better left in my imagination than if they were actually put in the game's coding itself. The world of ruin gives players the freedom to basically craft the game's second half. You can head straight to Kefka's Tower after getting the airship. Or, if you're like me, you can imagine how you would adapt this game into an episodic tv show, thinking up side stories. FFVI''s story is able to become a different narrative in the minds of each individual player.

This same principle applies in CT. Ask yourself why you choose the characters you do. For example, why do I always choose Frog and Marle to come with me to Magus's castle, even though that's not an optimal party? Because they're the characters with the most emotional investment. Why do I take Ayla with me to Zeal? Because it makes sense that she would be there if we end up there directly after being in the prehistoric.

(to be concluded)

The most common complaints leveled against the game are:

1. No over-arching narrative
2. Not enough party interaction
3. All the stories are the same

All of these criticisms can be addressed through a simple re-orientation of what one expects when it comes to video game narratives. I'll get to this later. First, I want to make it clear that the first critique is flat-out false. There is a subtle overarching narrative that is surprisingly emotional and epic. That being said, I will admit that Octopath's overarching narrative is technically relegated to the "post-game" and is so hard to activate that most players will not figure out how to activate the quest without consulting the internet. I will also admit that the extra dungeon is... well, not a dungeon really.

One more thing about the over-arching narrative; I believe many are unsatisfied due to their own expectations. While this game does have an overarching lore, Octopath isn't really about huge world-ending cataclysms in the way most jrpg's are. The developers are out to tell smaller, more personal stories that intertwine through their similarity. The story works by seeing how separate individuals respond to similar conflicts/choices (again, more on this later).

Now, when I said earlier that all of the criticisms can be addressed through a "re-orientation," here's what I mean. Octopath, and by extension the early Square Enix 16-bit rpg's it emulates, are more like comics/graphic novels than movies. Video game storytelling, as a genre, has by and large become more cinematic as graphics have improved, but Octopath stays true to its roots by cutting up the story into sections and allowing the player to "fill in" the gaps. Players here might initially complain - "a game I paid 60 dollars for shouldn't require me to tell my own story." I find this complaint banal and short-sighted, as the best stories are those that compel their viewers/listeners/readers to invest their imagination into.

In "Understanding Comics," Scott McCloud talks about panel transitions and "the gutter" - the space between panels, as places that compel readers to imagine what happens. In that way, the player/reader becomes co-author to the story. For example, if one panel features a person being chased by a second person with an axe, while the next panel features a shot of the moon and EEEYYAAAAAA in big spooky letters, readers imagine what has happened: "the reader is the one that swings the axe."

Octopath does the same sort of thing.

(continued)

DISCLAIMER: I'm aware at the outset that this is going to be long-winded and unconvincing to some, so I don't mind the push back. Also it's six in the morning and I woke up with this post in my head so here goes. END DISCLAIMER

"the most disappointing game of 2018"

"It started out promising, but turned to shit after"

"fantastic gameplay, crap story

I have repeatedly claimed that Octopath Traveler was my favorite game of 2018, beating out titles like RDR2, Smash Bros, Celeste, Spider-Man, and God of War. Since OT was released last July, I've played through the game twice on the Switch, totaling around 200 hours total playtime. Most people would agree with me when I say that the battle system, music, graphical style, and overall presentation are stellar examples how to update an "old-school" jrpg updated to the contemporary context of videogames. However, the most common complaint I see on this board and on the game's message board is it's story.

When I have read a post like one of the above complaining about the story, I have put up a meager comment about people "complaining about getting what they asked for" - in this case being "old-school storytelling." This isn't quite what I mean though. Hence, this long-winded post about why I believe Octopath Traveler's story succeeds.

(continued)

swirIdude posted...

When are we getting AA7, for cripes sake??

My vision, which will never happen, for AA7 is that it'll be the first game to feature some sort of mechanic that allows you to choose your character, so each case would have two routes that would each feature separate puzzles that eventually come to the same conclusion.

It also has a layton-esque world map instead of "move," gumshoe and maggey's kid as a sidekick for athena, sarge as the wright anything agency's "tech expert" and pearls finally getting that makeover.

5-5 is still a pretty good case with some really good characters

just kidding i only like it because aura is best

TC checking in with another hot take

far from home was bottom tier marvel. characterization for all the supporting cast was way worse and the big battle at the end is boring. the only good scene is the mysterio illusion sequence which is really good but only occurs once.

Peridiam posted...

Would you guys say this game is better than XC2? Trails of Cold Steel/Sky? Those are the last 3 big JRPG's I've played and I really enjoyed Sky, liked XC2, and was somewhat enjoying Cold Steel.

it's much better than xc2 and cold steel

personally I'd assert dqxi is also better than sky, but I can see an argument for sky

as someone who is against disney owning every property under the sun, I'm actually okay with seeing if sony has learned any lessons here in terms of putting out a good spider-man movie

chances are they haven't, which sucks, but whatever. I'm really sick of disney being the only movies people care about.

Grimlyn posted...

50/50 co-financing deal =/= Disney taking 50% gross

Mac Arrowny posted...

when Sony just wanted to keep the same deal as the first two movies.

which is completely ludicrous

true, but it's still a huge, aggressive move against the company who actually owns the property

SwiftyDC posted...

Not sure how this works without Spider-Man.

Sony is fucking dumb. Just take the 50/50 and be grateful.

what? no. Disney's the one who screwed this up. you don't go from 5% FDG to a 50/50 partnership

well, if holland is still attached for two movies I imagine one is a venom crossover and the last one might be another crossover/sinister 6 deal

it's just going to be a weird tonal shift because the first two movies are basically him as an avenger and now he presumably has to operate in the same world but not mention the outside mcu at all

Lunar 1 VS Lunar PSP
Neither. Lunar Silver Star Story Complete for PS1. Enjoy that Working Designs localization and the slow as hell gameplay!

Star Ocean 1 (SNES) and 2 (PS1) Vs PSPs
Didn't play SO1, but 2 is pretty good. Didn't play the remakes. Sorry, that's not helpful.

Tales of Phantasia SNES vs PS1.
I got nothin, sorry.

Tactics Ogre Let us Cling Together
SNES Vs PS1 Vs PSP
Highly recommend LUCT on the PSP. Cool interface and class-based leveling. It's still unbalanced, but so is Final Fantasy Tactics.

Ogre Battle March of the Black Queen
SNES Vs PS1

Nothin, sorry.

6-5 over 3-5 is an opinion I respect. It's wrong, but I still respect it.

why is no one posting

goty candidate here

I'll defend Nahyuta. Great theme, good desk slam, good catchphrase. Decent as a prosecutor; he's no edgeworth but he's not as much of a pushover as klavier or franziska. His turn in 6-5 is pretty emotional.

Negatives: the red pepper/egg yolk stuff and the beads. I think he's somewhere in the middle of a prosecutor ranking

"holding those bananas" is the original "delicious pancakes"

I don't believe this is worth $40 even if you've never played these

file them under "amazing at the time but have aged terribly"

3-5

3-5 > 2-4 > 6-5> 1-4> 1-5 > 5-5 > E1-5 > Layton > 4-4

Still haven't played E2

by that logic 5-1 should also be part of the 5-4/5-5 trilogy

the point is when talking about them you should go by what the game actually does and not whatever personal logic you use to make sense of them

i'm here for the wellington memes...

they're way more fun than 2-1 actually is.

pyresword posted...

I wonder if Greek gods vs Roman gods was the old world version of the subs vs. dubs debate.

pretty sure nerds still have this debate all the time

__LeiaRolando__ posted...

ZeldaTPLink posted...

I think you mixed the numbers, 6-4 is not a Khura'in case.

I was talking about two different things in the game as to why it was up and down.

LeonhartFour posted...

oh for some reason you refer to the second half of 6-5 as 6-6

6-6 is generally used to refer to the DLC case

I thought 6-D is the DLC case, which I never played btw. I treat the Paul Atishon indictment as 6-5; going back to Khur'in only to find Inga murdered is 6-6. Those are not the same case lol

yeah damn the facts, it's two separate cases now!

I agree in principle btw

I was going to say, 6-5 is really weird because if you just took the first half, with the cave and sarge and paul atishon and debating with phoenix it would still be a borderline top 5 case. The fact that it's sandwiched together with the stuff in Khur'ain is insane. I almost think the atishon case is better (almost).

2-1 > 1-1 obviously.

1-2 >2-2. 2-2 is actually pretty bad, between gunpowder burn, franzy's incompetence, magatama tutorials and it just overall not being fun. it's obviously an important case in the AA lore but it's not constructed well.1-2 would be pretty good if not for the rushed ending.

1-3 > 2-3. the initial steel samurai twist in this case is the exact moment when this series goes from "this is interesting" to "holy ****" 2-3 was considered the worst case in the series until AJ came along.

2-4 > 1-4 by a hair. I'd even say that the investigation of 1-4 is overall more fun than 2-4, but 2-4 is the most dramatic and tension-filled the series ever gets.

overall 1 > 2 because 2-2 and 2-3 are THAT bad

MrSmartGuy posted...

5-2 is the real top ten case. 5-3 is still good, though.

eh, it's not bad but l can't stand l'belle

ZeldaTPLink posted...

6-4 is pretty bad. It pretty much resetted Athena's character development by making her less competent.

5-3 is great though. At first I didn't like it, but then I realized it's like the least serious case in the whole series, and the way it makes fun of itself is brilliant.

6-4 has uendo, who isn't bad, but you're right. simon pretty much does everything for athena, kind of like an even worse version of how people complained mia solved cases for phoenix in AA1. it also kind of hurts simon's character too in the process. if this case was drawn out to a one-day investigation/trial case, where athena actually SOLVES THINGS HERSELF, then this case might not be so bad. so 6-4 should actually be like 6-2, and 6-2 should have actually been a 2-day case/trial.

i love 5-3. i love robin, hugh, junie, and the whole setting. i REALLY LOVE MIRIAM. i like the klavier cameo. I just don't like it at all once means gets fingered as a suspect. not that it wasn't completely obvious it was him all along, but it just feels sloppily executed/rushed.

where's the gs7 announcement

this topic inspired by a recent playthrough of 5-3, which is one of my favorite cases in the series (until maybe the last third of the last trial, when it is actually terrible)

yes but not in theaters

i'm stoked

I don't really like it either, but it feels like the developers did exactly what they set out to do, so I can't in good conscience call it a bad game

also it glitched on me in the weirdest ways, like all of a sudden people who you're supposed to talk to not talking with you, random freezes, items disappearing, etc.

I immediately liked last surprise but it's kind of worn on me

that being said the new song has got nothing on it

with THAT being said, roftt>mass destruction>last surprise>ttmh>wiping all out> whatever this is called

Holdo would be fine if the entire series wasn't built on the idea that leaders who seem corrupted by power and not acting in the best interest of their followers should be rebelled against

As it is, the movie gives no justification for her being secretive of her final plan and she makes no attempts to assure Poe or get him to trust her. Pretty much she expects him to follow her without questioning her motivations or authority. But again, the entire series is based on NOT doing that.

So when it turns out she was good all along it doesn't feel like it has any bearing on the plot other than to be a "gotcha" moment. The film rather cruelly scolds viewers for doing exactly what it has trained them to do.

It's just a bit confusing because I don't understand the message RJ is trying to communicate here. That people should sometimes just shut up and listen to their leaders when they're acting sketchy? That goes against the movie's entire theme of resistance. Is the Poe/Holdo dynamic in there solely to make a point about "toxic masculinity" and strong female characters? This doesn't work either because Poe wasn't doing anything particularly "toxic" within the logic of the film and the series has had numerous strong female characters already.

TLJ is an okay movie but yeah. I don't get what RJ was going for with Holdo at all.

Lufia - only played 2 for the SNES one time, can't remember it very well. decent from what I remember.

Illusion of Gaia - pretty good. really good atmosphere/storytelling. if ghibli did twin peaks or if lynch did castle in the sky.

Terranigma - never played

Breath of Fire - would certainly welcome a true revival of this series though honestly it's a bit overrated. 4 is the best.

Shining Force- never played!

scarletspeed7 posted...

Hitting Endgame numbers right now is an unrealistic goal that no studio, even Disney, expected.

right. I guess what I should have said is that I have real doubts about black widow and eternals doing much better than say, ant-man numbers.

Leonhart4 posted...

AAI2 and both DGS games

package them together into a port for the switch. I'd pay 60.

I don't know, I feel like I'm pretty much done.

the only one coming out in the forseeable future that I kind of want to see is joker, and that's more so because I like joaquin phoenix

I don't care at all about what Marvel's got next year. Black Widow, the Eternals, Disney plus shows... hard pass.

I'm sure TC is technically right however and that these movies will make a ton of money. I don't see them coming close to doing Endgame numbers until the X-Men revival hits.

yeah I thought it was pretty bad. needed more actual pokemon battling instead of the weird roger rabbit feel it was going for.

I'm all for it

Hero's too slow to do much damage at upper level competitive play tbh. he's awesome in casual free for alls but 1v1 he's pretty predictable and easy to punish