Lurker > Hornezz

Rika_Furude posted...

if you support a trump win by not voting

Telling a candidate to listen to a large amount of his own voter base is not supporting his opponent.

Bizarre mental gymnastics are needed to reach that conclusion.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

I'm not wrong, though. America is stuck with a two party system. If you didn't want Biden on the ballot, enough of you should've voted in the primaries.

At no point have I advocated for a third candidate. Not even the first time I've had to say this ITT:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80738550/979740351

There's also the option of Biden being pressured into changing his point. Which is what I've been hammering for dozens of posts.

None of you are actually reading anything, just reacting reflexively. See Biden criticism => must type "Trump worse"

Rika_Furude posted...

Trumpworse is the reason Biden is the default vote for humans with morals. I dont see you pressuring Trump to be better

I'm pressuring Biden to win the election. Surely that's preferable to any sort of 'better Trump' that you're imagining.

The endless Trumpworse loop continues

- Biden doing bad things is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden going against the wishes of his own base is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden causing his voters to stay at home is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden handing Trump the election win is... uh, well, Trump's worse

havean776 posted...

And if he doesn't than my friends are simply a sacrifice you are more than happy to make.

The people arguing that Biden can safely cruise to a win without having to listen to his voters are making that gamble. Not me.

Telling a politician to listen to his voters isn't some crazy demand; it's how basic democracy works. Yet so many of you will resist that idea at all costs, and would gladly pull out all kinds of baseless accusations just because you believe your favorite politician is exempt from criticism.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

So from what I'm gathering from this topic, it's a-ok for lgbtq people to die, women to have their rights stripped away, minorities to be oppressed, and Muslim Americans to die, just as long as the Dems are taught a lesson.

Yeah, it's crazy the sort of high stakes people are willing to gamble when they argue that politicians don't need to win votes and that they would just win by default.

Not me though. I think Biden and his campaign team should absolutely do their utmost best to appeal to voters and win that election.

But I'm guessing that's not what you meant.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Then the only viable candidate not named Trump should win by default. Why would convincing be needed?

If you want Biden to win, you should want him to convince as many people as possible to vote for him.

There's no such thing as winning by default. If you really believe an election can be won without campaigning and appealing to voters, I don't know what to tell you. It's not gonna end well.

And at the same time: if you're so absolutely sure that Biden can win without having to convince voters (he won't), why be bothered about abstaining voters in the first place? He'll win by default right? (he won't - this is a bad idea)

Cemith posted...

You guys keep creating this argument and it's laughably fucking dumb. No one is accepting genocide,

Your words: "It isn't my fault that my only real choices are Gazan Genocide but I have rights or Gazan Genocide but I and millions of others don't have rights."

Also your words: "Genocide happens either way, chief."

When I asked whether genocide in Gaza and genocide in Gaza + US were the only choice, you answered yes:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-cur
rent-events/80738550/979739657

All the options you provide include genocide for Gazans. That sounds like acceptance.

everyone knows we need to pressure Biden.

So do it then, instead of arguing with everyone protesting a fucking genocide.

Not one single person has claimed Biden wouldn't change policy.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-cur
rent-events/80738550/979740039

StarFighters76 posted...

You haven't established a damn thing. Just because you say it, doesn't mean you fully comprehend it. People are voting for Biden BECAUSE Trump will be much worse. You can't just move past that fact. However you are expecting people to move past it. You know what that says? It says you don't give a crap about Trump being worse, quite possibly, because you'd rather have him around than Biden, who knows really?

Yes Trump is worse.

Yes Trump is worse.

Yes Trump is worse.

Yes Trump is worse.

Yes Trump is worse.

We should stop him from getting elected. We do that not by telling voters that genocide is the only option, but by telling Biden to take a moral stance.

(inb4 but trump is worse)

Cemith posted...

Israel will be supported until we as a nation pressure Biden into change. We can only stop Israel incrementally and voting in Trump is the end of Gaza as we know it.

Holy shit we agree!

Cemith posted...

About fucking time one of you centrists said as much. I don't know why it took y'all so fucking long to do this.

Not a centrist. I posted that same message almost verbatim in a previous topic, twice.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80737505/979710920
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80737505/979712258
Cemith posted...

Maybe because people like you are all gung-ho for downplaying the actual threat he poses to the literal future of democracy.

You made this up. I never did that.

Whining about how "Biden needs a better plan to win votes" as though voting against a fascist is a privilege to be earned. If voting against a fascist rise to power isn't a compelling enough reason to vote Biden, fuck off forever.

There's this bizarre rhetoric again. Previously you outright told me that Biden doesn't need to win votes because the other candidate is a fascist. Now I'm telling you: his opponent being a fascist is pretty damn good reason for Biden to go out and win votes. But so many of you seem to think "nah, just accept genocide, Biden is entitled to your vote no matter what". It's not just immoral and undemocratic but even on a pragmatic level: it's not helping him win.

mistymermaid posted...

You're trying to bait people.

Into what? Into explaining why accepting genocide is the more preferable option over pressuring a politician on listening to his voters? If so, yes, I really want to know the answer to that.

Cemith posted...

Not one single person has claimed Biden wouldn't change policy.

You say this like you haven't been arguing for dozens of posts that there is no alternative to genocide.

Cemith posted...

Trump will be exponentially and quantifiably worse for everyone. You have not acknowledged this, as far as anyone can tell.

I have, numerous times. For months. I'll help you again: TRUMP WILL BE WORSE. Including on Gaza. On every other topic too.

Now that we've established that, can we PLEASE move past this "but Trump worse". You tell me I'm exhausting but this is all I'm seeing on loop every time I enter a topic.

==> Try to actually think about how to prevent a Trump win. Sending more bombs to Israel isn't winning voters for Biden. Lying about Israel's war crimes isn't either. Nor is Biden fans shouting that genocide is the only option, and that protesters are maga chuds for thinking otherwise.

If this is truly about making Biden win at all costs, why are so many of you hellbent on a PR strategy that's so fucking disastrous?

hockeybabe89 posted...

But at some point you need to decide if you want to save what you can,

Right. And telling people that genocide is the only option is the complete opposite of that.

It's not helping Biden win the election either.

mistymermaid posted...

Improbable, I was only naming something he could do that's less repugnant than going to bat for Trump.

Try for once just to move beyond 'but Trump'

Why in the hell are you arguing for a third candidate at this point in the election cycle, and how in the hell would that be preferably in beating Trum, more so than telling Biden to stop with his wildly impopular actions that are costing him voters?

Cemith posted...

So you do not acknowledge the reality of our two party system. As such, you have outed yourself as a clown who does not live in the reality they should. No one should take you seriously from here onward until you acknowledge the reality of the two party ststem.

Feel free to actually provide proof that it's outright impossible for Biden to make a change in his policy. Canada did it. Previous presidents did it. Biden has already sharply changed his tone, all that's left is actions. You have brought absolutely not one piece of evidence to the table.

You refuse to accept anything other than genocide and have actually deluded yourself into believing this is for a good reason. There's no such thing as a genocide for the greater good.

mistymermaid posted...

You're deflecting. That has nothing to do with the reality at the ballot box.

The options are:
* Biden
* Trump
* Third party
* No vote

Your opinion of Biden will not put a different candidate on the ballot.

Read my posts, at no point have I argued for a different candidate.

Biden has more than half a year to do right by his voters (and basic international human rights for that matter), and win the election.

hockeybabe89 posted...

It should be impossible for Biden to lose voters since he's not as bad as Trump.

Biden SHOULDN'T support war crimes in Gaza, but does
=> this is something you're willing to accept

Voters SHOULDN'T need convincing to vote for Biden, but do
=> this is something you firmly oppose, and are willing to argue at length about

Odd that electing Biden AT ALL COSTS includes accepting fucking genocide, but demanding a politician to listen to his own voters in a democracy is too high of a cost?

Cemith posted...

Do you acknowledge the binary reality of the Electoral College and each candidates stance on Gaza?

Absolutely not. Biden can change and stop his support for genocide.
You have provided no evidence whatsoever to prove this is impossible.

You just don't want him to.

hockeybabe89 posted...

What's stopping them from going scorched earth? They have a strong military. They have missiles. They have nukes. We've already given them billions over the years. And they'd have nothing left to lose. They could wipe Palestinians off the planet in a day.

If Biden has done all he can to prevent that, then we cannot blame him for that.
As of now though, he has not done everything he can.

I'd argue that as awful as things are, Israel is still holding back because they love that sweet US support.

Based off what?
"the Israeli campaign would not be sustainable without this level of U.S. support"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/

Rika_Furude posted...

your pressure of not voting for Biden will result in a trump win when he has a higher vote count.

Prove that Biden cannot possibly pivot without losing the election.

If this is what your entire argument hinges on for "supporting a lesser genocide", then I'm sure you have strong irrefutable evidence for that claim, right?

It's his current handling that's making him lose voters, not the other way around. It's absolutely based on nothing whatsoever.

There's this bizarre reflex to defend Biden at every corner even if that means losing sight of the goal, which is getting him elected. Wild how so many of you ever seems to acknowledge that.

Conversations just go:
- Biden doing bad things is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden going against the wishes of his own base is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden causing his voters to stay at home is okay, because Trump is worse
- Biden handing Trump the election win is... uh, well, Trump's worse

Well that plus the usual accusations and name-calling of course.

Rika_Furude posted...

Nobody except you is pretending there other options. Its a little thing called reality you are ignoring.

I'm not expecting Rika "support the lesser genocide" Furude to accept any other option other than genocide.

It's your own fucking rhetoric that's chasing away voters and risking a Trump election.

Cemith posted...

Biden is facing pressure on the daily from millions of people.

Good. Keep it up, there's a 6 months window of opportunity for him to pivot. And he already has changed his position, albeit in words only.

Just weeks ago people here insisted I was a Biden-hating idiot for saying that was possible.

Rika_Furude posted...

If your pressure means you not voting for him, and therefore you contribute to a Trump victory, did you help or did you make the situation in Israel worse?

Stop pretending like a Trump victory is the only option besides accepting Biden's involvement in Gaza.

It's not true. There's no evidence whatsoever that Biden would lose the election if he pivots. If you have that evidence, I'm open to seeing it. Until then, all signs say that his handling is costing him voters and threatening a trump reelection is baseless.

hockeybabe89 posted...

If there are no good options, what hurts the least? No further thought needed.

The good option is pressuring Biden into changing his stance. I've told you this a hundred times. But for some fucking reason you see throwing Palestinians under the bus as a more preferable option.

And don't tell me it's to elect Biden. Telling people that they have no choice but to accept genocide is about the worst damn campaign message you can send to voters considering abstaining. This is hurting his election chances.

edit:

What even is intervening? Do we truly believe cutting support would be enough to sink Israel?

Cutting off arms sales, condition future aid on certain terms. Canada and Spain did it recently, but they don't have nearly as much sway. US Presidents have done so too in the past.

And yes: I linked an article above that outright stated that Israel's campaign is unsustainable without US weapons. The vast majority of Israeli weapon imports are American. The US does have that much leverage.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Nope. Shut the fuck up. When you have two options, you always choose the least harm, not abstain because you want no harm.

There's also the option of Biden intervening. I literally just told you this, but your one-track mind just refuses to consider options other than genocide.

Like wtf is going on here. Justification of genocide would lead to instant bans just a few months ago. Is there lead in the water or something?

Cemith posted...

Yes. Denying that fact is willful ignorance and nothing less.

You have deluded yourself into believing that bombing Palestinians is somehow a necessary part of preventing a Trump reelection. It's complete and utter bullshit. There's no basis for this in reality.

The absolute mental gymnastics needed to tell everyone for months on end that genocide is the only option whilst at the same time pretending you're fighting the good fight against fascism, is actually astounding.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Is it though? America has a massive leverage over Israel to pressure them. Biden has the ability to stop weapons sales when they're being used for human rights violations. Hell, it was Biden himself who wrote that policy. Experts have stated that the Israeli campaign is "unsustainable without this level of US support".

https://www.state.gov/the-u-s-conventional-arms-transfer-policy/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/

The US absolutely does have the power to intervene here and to make a difference. Not doing so is a choice. I feel like we're being way, way to eager to assume that genocide is inevitable.

i am voting for the lesser amount of genocide...

Just no. This is never acceptable. You start a damn revolution or stage a fucking coup for all I care before accepting genocide. There is no such thing as genocide for the greater good.

Casual denial of atrocities again. Not great.

Tanthalas posted...

US policy on Israel has been to help defend it for years now.

This is never a good argument. It's circular reasoning to defend the status quo just for the sake of it: "things have been like this, so they should stay like this".

Either way, circumstances have changed. Israel/Palestine has always been ripe with human right violations, but things haven't been nearly this deadly or destructive before. Sticking to the same strategy no matter what is not defensible, not when the US has this much involvement in this conflict.

How easy the convo flips from 'we just need to stop Trump from winning' to denial of casualty figures.

This is the source of the image I posted: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68387864
The BBC article does a good job analyzing the reported numbers coming from Gaza, and argues they might even be understated.

Reuters came to the same conclusion: numbers are credible but perhaps underestimated:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/

IDF officials have previously stated that Hamas numbers are fairly accurate:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/

Hell, IDF internally uses the Health Ministry's number as they deem them reliable (link in Hebrew):
https://tinyurl.com/5dwrxm57

It's a business model. If there's nothing to be outraged about this week, they'll pick something popular and choose to be outraged about that.

radical_rhino posted...

LMAO check the small print, buddy

What point are you making exactly?

Tanthalas posted...

So, the only argument you have to offer is "maintaining decades of US policy towards Israel".

US policy on Israel wasn't aiding in killing people by the tens of thousands in a few months time. It is now.

Therefore maintaining policy of sending billions worth of bombs, knowing that they're being used for large scale atrocities, isn't a good thing. Biden bypassed congress to send more weapons, even after the ICJ had labeled the risk of genocide plausible.

ClayGuida posted...

Will trump change that policy?

He will not. He'd make it worse.

Will Biden's unwillingness to make a change help win over voters and prevent Trump from doing that?

Tanthalas posted...

Youre going to have to come up with way better than maintaining decades-long policy towards Israel and the Middle-East to prove that hes actually evil.

Circumstances are different compared to the last few decades though:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e77d0dff.jpg

This is a very good reason for a change in policy.

^and for a more recent poll. Gallup last week:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/9e566719.png
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e75c8b48.png

I really don't know what the strategy is behind pretending that the disapproval is only coming from a small fringe group that the Biden campaign can safely dismiss.

Dismissing these concerns is not helping him win votes.

DnDer posted...

"International humanitarian law" is a remarkably specific phrase. What's he weaseling around with language like that?

Found an answer to this. Just a year ago the Biden admin revised its arms transfer policies to include:

The newly revised CAT Policy is committed to strengthening U.S. national security by reinforcing respect for human rights, international humanitarian law, democratic governance, and rule of law, by:
- Preventing arms transfers that risk facilitating or otherwise contributing to violations of human rights or international humanitarian law;

https://www.state.gov/the-u-s-conventional-arms-transfer-policy/

Publicly acknowledging that Israel is violating humanitarian laws, means acknowledging that the admin is breaking its own policies by supplying weapons.

The man lives a rough life, fighting crime all night long. Let him blow off some steam for once yeesh

Let's stop pushing the myth that 'genocide' or 'more genocide' are the only options. It's not true.

There's also the option of Biden listening to criticism and changing his course. Either because he realizes it's the right thing to do, or because electoral pressure forces his hand.

But for some reason people vehemently oppose that third option and would rather keep shouting that that genocide is inevitable, and that people just need to stop protesting it.

Flaming_Fire619 posted...

You're not wrong to be angry but it's a pretty difficult balancing act. The Jewish population has voted overwhelmingly for Democrats and choosing now of all times to go against them will also result in a ton of lost votes.

A majority of Americans now disapprove of Israel's actions in Gaza. Disapproval among Democrat voters is at 75%.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx

It's especially young and non-white voters who disapprove of Biden's handling so far, the groups who are more likely to abstain from voting. There's a lot more risk in continuing unconditional support for Israel.

Single issue voters on this subject should see that by abstaining you're just going to put someone who is actively worse for Palestine in the White House, and worse for the US as a whole. But its still going to happen.

Threatening to withhold your vote is how you pressure politicians into changing policies. This administration can choose to pivot and win those abstaining voters back. The onus should be on politicians to do what the voters want, not the other way around.

Instead of criticizing voters for not condoning the complicity in Israel's atrocities, the finger should be pointed at Biden for refusing to listen to his base and thereby putting the election at risk.

Former supreme court judges say UK arming Israel breaches international law

Three former supreme court justices, including the courts former president Lady Hale, are among more than 600 lawyers, academics and retired senior judges warning that the UK government is breaching international law by continuing to arm Israel.

In a letter to the prime minister, the signatories, who also include former court of appeal judges and more than 60 KCs, say that the present situation in Gaza is catastrophic and that given the international court of justice (ICJ) finding that there is a plausible risk of genocide being committed, the UK is legally obliged to act to prevent it.

The 17-page letter, which also amounts to a legal opinion, was sent on Wednesday evening and says: While we welcome the increasingly robust calls by your government for a cessation of fighting and the unobstructed entry to Gaza of humanitarian assistance, simultaneously to continue (to take two striking examples) the sale of weapons and weapons systems to Israel and to maintain threats of suspending UK aid to Unwra falls significantly short of your governments obligations under international law.

More in link:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/former-supreme-court-judges-say-uk-arming-israel-breaches-international-law

There was a What If story where Shalla-Bal became Galactus' herald btw. So this isn't entirely unprecedented.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b1831e29.jpg

Haven't seen a lot of her acting so I can't judge. Don't care about Silver Surfer's gender.

But absolute yes on Annihilation. MCU has a pretty decent cosmic line up for it now. Just that damned Nova missing.

Oh look it's this dude.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/33e4c11e.png

It said quote me on it, so I did.

DrizztLink posted...

The point being we can at least attempt to pressure Biden, which has actually worked on several occasions throughout his presidency.

Which is exactly what I've been arguing for this whole topic. But sadly a lot of the most devout supporters would rather tell anyone pressuring that they need to fall in line or else they get the fascism.

Cemith posted...

Probably because if you don't vote for Biden, and Trump wins, conservatives will see to it that you can never vote again.

Pretty compelling reason to vote Biden, but hey, I like having rights \ _ ( ) _ /

Insisting Biden would never listen to his voters and stop supporting genocide, whilst claiming he's still entitled to the votes of his own base isn't actually preventing that.

There's no reason whatsoever to believe that throwing Palestinian lives under the bus is needed for Biden to win the election.

Begrudgingly accepting genocide as an inevitability isn't the brave battle against fascism you seem to think it is.

Heineken14 posted...

No.

Oh come on. This entire topic is filled with people arguing that Biden deserves the vote even if he ignores his voters' demands.

Heineken14 posted...

Young people have been shit on for yonks and are only recently being given any sort of attention to by politicians

Are they do? 70% of dems under 45 disapprove of Biden's handling of Israel.

Yet we have people arguing up and down that Biden should ignore them.