Lurker > HeroDelTiempo17

Kinglicious posted...

If you defund, you also loosen gun control.
Not both at the same time.

Gun control should ideally be implemented as symmetrically as possible but the police have plenty of advantages you can address first. As FD notes you'd likely retain a small armed response team for emergencies.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

HashtagSEP posted...

For what it's worth, Biden has said he's for this.

The statement put out earlier in full seems to suggest he's against "defunding" as in completely cutting funding, but he's for "reform" as in moving around what the funding is for.

Preventative crime measures do not have to be police, and if you move money to non-police areas, you've defunded them. To Biden's credit, he is in favor of funding a lot of these types of solutions at some level, but the statements by him and his campaign in that article make it clear that he wants to fund these in addition to the current police budget. He even suggests that police aren't funded enough.

And again

Defunding is not total defunding

No one credible is saying police budget to $0 overnight. Even the people who say we don't need police at all are aware getting there would take generations.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

There are specific thing within police departments I would be totally on board with defunding (e.g. funding for militarized equipment). Just general across-the-board cuts (which is what you would get if you just remove money without saying we're specifically removing money for X, Y, or Z) would both be far less effective at addressing the actual problems and lead to reduced effectiveness for the roles that we actually want the police to be fulfilling as well.

If this is what activists mean (and it is not at all clear to me that it is), they should say so rather than leaving others to come up with their own interpretation (of which an across the board cut is the most obvious, and which of course most people are going to oppose, because there are things they do want the police to be doing).

Well then your problem is that you're automatically assuming the least charitable interpretation even though by your own admission you also support defunding the police. Like, if you cut out funding for military equipment, where is that money going? Defund/abolish advocates will say that you instead invest the money in crime prevention measures in the community, which cuts down on the amount of policing.

It's the job of activists to explain what it means to "defund" the police but you have to seek out that info.

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Serious question, LOTM:

As many people have posted in these topics, we are spending billions of dollars on police forces and programs. We've also seen that these programs don't work effectively. If you agree with this premise, should we keep funding ineffective programs? And if not, what do we do with the money?

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

LordoftheMorons posted...

...keep marching until Biden lights his campaign on fire?

Reform the police is probably a majority position. Defund the police is not and very likely never will be.

Biden doesn't currently even want the reforms that both advocates for reform and abolition support so yes there's clearly still ground to be gained before you start hand wringing over phrasing.

Like the House bill Democrats are talking about today, for example, is a total joke.

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

You need 12 stars to get BBH to appear, and only 8 stars to access Bowser 1. Ergo, while BBH is not directly tied to beating Bowser 1, it is sequentially after it according to requirements. So I always considered BBH to be part of the second tier of levels.

Playing casually I would typically blow past both requirements before beating Bowser 1 anyways so I'd either consider it part of the first floor or neither 1st or basement.

You wouldn't put the Wing Cap in with the basement levels since you need 10 stars for that, would you?

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Most uses do in fact avoid using "consent" and instead use "violence" or "compliance" which have different connotations. I agree that "consent" is a poor and counterproductive choice of words.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Speaking of keeping quiet this quote gave me a laugh

As the protesters like to say, silence is agreement, Trump campaign communications director Tim Murtaugh said on a conference call with reporters. By his silence Joe Biden is endorsing defunding the police.

Our politics are so fucked up

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/501657-biden-campaign-opposes-calls-to-defund-the-police

Guess we keep marching

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Yeah well I hope it holds but we've still got 4.5 months of bullshit to go

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Giggsalot posted...

As a PhD chemist, there is nothing more annoying than people describing things as "not a chemical" as if that is either true or in any way meaningful.

Literally everything is chemicals.

Okay it took a lot of willpower to not bring it up myself but now that the cat is out of the bag I agree with this!

However I don't think it actually matters to the definition of "chemical weapons" which is actually just describing toxicity so it's moot

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Jakyl25 posted...

Pepper spray isnt a chemical? Where can I find it on the Periodic Table? Where can I find it in the wild?

The most generous possible interpretation is that the actual active ingredient in pepper spray (capsaicin) is naturally occurring in peppers, but as a whole it's prepared synthetically.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

When people talk about "black genocide" it's more of a rhetorical shorthand for the extreme and targeted system of segregation and violence along racial-social-economic lines that still exists in America today so I dont even know if this is a gotcha as much as it is a semantic argument

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

BetrayedTangy posted...

Yeah the attic is absolutely the worst.

Most of the other levels have designs that actually make them feel like areas that exist in this world. TTC and Rainbow Ride have cool concepts, but they're both just like oh yeah here's a bunch of abstract floating objects for you to jump on.

That's great though

They made two whole 3D Mario games that were just entirely abstract floating object levels and they kicked ass

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I came in thinking I'd agree because the levels are gimmicky and kind of annoying, but they're all still pretty fun. I'm convinced by the 2nd floor people.

Snowman's Land is boring as hell. Wet-Dry is obnoxious in a dull way. Tall Tall Mountain is a legit good level and Tiny-Huge has a fun gimmick.

Shifting Sand, Hazy Maze, and Lethal Lava are all a little obnoxious but there's a lot of good in those levels. Docks sucks but I'll take it over Wet-Dry any day.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Corrik7 posted...

A return to the wild west. Soldiers and militias were your police back then. But chaos would ensue a lot where they weren't.

Let's go back to feudalism. One person can control like a hundred people each and keep them in line.

the militias back in that time were mostly just policing slaves and shooting farmers protesting taxes so you know what they can probably fuck off too

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Slightly torn on this.

https://twitter.com/emilymbadger/status/1268894519283658753?s=19

All the shit they're doing I DC is obviously a big fuck you to Trump, very much intentionally, which is great.

But christ if anybody tries to pretend this is doing anything for what people are actually fighting for. They named a ton of streets after MLK, too.

I do think there is some practical merit to essentially making Black Lives Matter an official public stance. Especially since it is in DC right outside the White House, that's a pretty powerful statement. But it's not real change.

But basically my thinking is that I will take as many symbolic victories they see fit to give as long as people keep fighting. I hope they take down all the confederate statues to appease the mob and the mob remains unappeased.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Pretty thoughtful thread on the similarities and differences between abolishing the police and reforming them for the reformers skeptical of abolition as a goal

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268948006293909514.html

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Most compelling argument for defunding police I've ever seen

https://twitter.com/Glenthefossa/status/1268919762962264064?s=19

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

The leaks say a Gruul variant of Courser of Kruphix is coming which should be sick with Azusa.

Plunge seems to be an incredibly solid removal spell

All Hounds being Dogs is also weirdly sweet, as is "mill" being keyworded as far as minor tweaks go.

This core set is already way cooler than I expected it to be

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Who wants to bet shit really starts moving now that they've killed a young white girl?

https://twitter.com/IBJIYONGI/status/1268297984296587267?s=19

nah they'll just say she was a russian antifa agent

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SgtSphynx posted...

He wrote that last year

Yeah El-P tweeted and deleted something about it being an Eric Garner reference that then became a George Floyd reference. Absolutely tragically insane it became directly relevant

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

HashtagSEP posted...

Yes, and I certainly wouldn't be praising Biden for such a list, either, but you expect it from Biden. I defended Biden's quote because it wasn't actually a list of "I need these things or I won't support it." Seeing an actual list of demands be... Basically keeping the status quo is disappointing.

You expect Biden to play politics because he's running for President. It's certainly nothing at all to praise but I'm pretty sure most of us have agreed our praise basically ends at "Better than the other guy."

I was hoping Bernie'd not play politics and not feel the need to compromise.

man if you guys see Biden introducing that list Bernie put up then you either have a really high opinion of Biden or even higher expectations for Bernie! Most of that stuff seems well outside of the Democrat mainstream tbqh

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Damn did they deliver, this might rival RTJ2

Killer Mike's verse on walking in the snow is CHILLING

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

BetrayedTangy posted...

In theory, sure. But based off what I've seen from schools as well as my old job, I don't think it's effective for two reasons.

1. The police already aren't doing their jobs correctly. So we're going to make it harder to properly train them? Because I guarantee that's where budget cuts are going to go.

2. Salary cuts also results in them doing worse jobs. From what I've learned people don't quit their jobs when you take away money, they just do their jobs worse.

The biggest focus should be on the Justice system as well as making sure specific practices are met with prosecution.

Schools are not the best comparison here. First of all, schools do not use state funding to buy riot gear, chemical weapons, and tanks. Cutting off funding for that has an obvious tangible benefit.

Second, the issues with cops are systemic and not going to be fixed by increasing their pay to incentivize individual actors to not be shitty. I'd actually argue teachers have MUCH more individual agency in their system than cops do in theirs. Policing has enormous institutional momentum.

Third, since part of the solution is adding civilians to take over police roles, funds for police are directly competing with those.

Finally, police are already doing a shitty job but I'll backtrack and agree with you LTM and say maybe we can revisit this problem after everything else is done if you think current wages aren't enough

Edit: Also reminder the courts say that the police do not actually have to "protect and serve" and thus are not public servants the same way other public jobs like teachers are.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

HashtagSEP posted...

Why can't he? His campaign is currently suspended. There's no reason to compromise on beliefs.

Unless he really does believe there aren't bigger issues.

He's still a senator and politician.

And....yeah this is probably in line with what he actually believes.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

BetrayedTangy posted...

I don't see why defunding the police is what people want. Isn't that just going to make the violence worse? In my opinion the first step is solving the issue of accountability.

Defunding is part of accountability.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

HashtagSEP posted...

I dunno, it still feels like more of a "There are bad apples and we need to root them out" approach moreso than what's actually needed.

Well yeah but the point is Bernie can't come out and say "ABOLISH THE POLICE." That's why he's a compromise candidate.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Doesn't that vary heavily depending on their position? I was under the impression that most of the rank and file police force was not making a lot.

Or is this me being coerced by media representation..

Yeah it varies but the average and medians I see fall in the mid 50k range

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

HashtagSEP posted...

Am I missing something or is Bernie's list basically "Do what we're supposed to be doing now, anyway, but "better." "

I'm not sure that's going to fix anything.

Nah honestly a lot of these are pretty good

Civil liability for police screwups is not a given so that's big. Demilitarizing is big (though I must also point out Bernie wants to stop more militarization, not truly demilitarize. More compromise!). Civilian first responders are big. Community oversight with actual tangible authority over the police is big.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

That's a bit of a loaded statement to make. On paper, if police are ACTUALLY doing their job and protecting the people, and aren't just acting like domestic terrorists, they SHOULD get paid more.

Obviously they're showing that's not the case right now, but in a perfect world....

Well his list simultaneously includes "expand recruitment by paying cops more," "defund departments that don't follow our regulations," and "create more civilian first responder positions so we need less police" so you can kind of see how increasing pay is the odd one out.

Also cops already make pretty good money

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

bernie saying we need to reform the police, but also pay them a lot more

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1268204977765392386?s=19

See, centrists? Bernie is more than willing to compromise with you! You should have joined with the better candidate!

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/deadline/status/1268025633210130432?s=21

Said the quiet part out loud again

Literally, "the beatings will continue until morale improves"

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

SuperNiceDog posted...

is anyone even talking about the upcoming election right now... crazy that few people are. Riots are starting to die down a little so maybe they'll start discussing it

bold of you to assume there will be elections

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I dont even think banning all guns is neccessary but yeah bilateral disarmament is the entire point. You can't safely disarm the public without first demilitarizing the police, and vice versa.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Not_an_Owl posted...

How about instead of always going to the gun, we train police officers to use stun guns or pepper spray? How about instead of instigating violence we train police to de-escalate and use words to resolve situations? That sounds way better than "shooting to wound, not kill".

For fucking real, cops being allowed to kill at all is the issue here. If anything, the protests are showing that cops have MANY nonlethal options for subdual and actively choose not to use them on threats, only on unarmed protesters. And even that can be excessive force. Disarming the police IS the compromise stance here, I can't believe people are arguing against this point just because it's Tony saying it. Biden is an out of touch old man and his personal ideas are terrible and it's completely reasonable to demand better.

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BlackDra90n posted...

Yea, can't wait for rotation. Not sure if I want to craft a bunch of Uros in the meantime and play some Temur or just play Phoenixes or Boros Cycling casually until rotation hits.

I mean...aren't an overwhelming amount of staples right now from post-Eldraine, anyways? Off the top of my head the only archetype based around a pre-Ikoria card is Reclamation. Does rotation actually kill any other decks? Even Teferi I don't think is necessary, just a really good card.

Not trying to be pessimistic because maybe you can still get a good format out of this but the last 3 sets feel very strong and I'm sure people don't want more power creep

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Damn I shouldn't have underestimated WotC's commitment to clunky solutions. Though like I said, this is a much bigger power level reduction than other changes.

Fires and Agent bans are also deserved, I think. Winota is a nasty card but you'd have to ban it AND Lukka without the Agent ban. Maybe the deck is fine without it, though Historic has some pretty good targets still.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

LordoftheMorons posted...

What do you mean by "non-police authorities"? Ultimately assuming you still want to, at minimum, arrest people for stuff like rape and murder, some entity needs to be empowered to make those arrests. At that point you effectively have police, regardless of what you're calling them.

I honestly don't know all the details but yes the general argument is that the police's authority is too broad and you would specialize the force into more typical professional jobs that are not "the police" as a generic authority role. One of the most compelling arguments is for mental health emergencies because police don't really have the proper training to be first responders for those. But also possibly things like traffic management and detective work - does a traffic cop really need a gun?

You'll still have a police force taking care of those criminals you mention but their scope and authority will be much reduced and focused.

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red sox 777 posted...

Community policing solutions? Like roving mobs of anarchists sending anyone who opposes them to a reeducation camp?

Almost, but socialists instead of anarchists. They'll be better organized than roving bands for sure, and still more fair than the current system by a large margin.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Are we circling all the way around to supporting smuffin's ancap paradise here

No, in the ancap paradise there's still police but you have to pay them or you don't get protection under the law. Also they won't be corrupt because the free market encourages competition between gangs - I mean businesses.

Leftists want stuff like community policing solutions and non-police authorities taking over police roles and demilitarizing whatever is left after that.

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Peace___Frog posted...

I've only put a few hundred hours into terraria I think, and never once have I had my entire jungle get overrun. Not even close to half of it. Maybe you got a weird seed and then left the game running for a week straight?

Now that you mention it, I've run a multi-player server and while it was years ago so I dont know how much time we spent going from Hardmode to Planterra, I'm certain that I would have HAD to leave the game running a week straight and we still had no issue

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How long do you have to spend in Hardmode before the entire Jungle gets corrupted? I've never run into that issue of totally locking out progression but I've always progressed at a quick pace when I've played it.

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Hey, businesses are all closing due to curfews and fear of being looted so maybe this impromptu lockdown will help balance out the COVID spike!

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Great with a huge asterisk and not something I'd consider a must-play by any means. But still great

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

KamikazePotato posted...

The true criminals have finally revealed themselves

https://mobile.twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/1266916809569185799

god I wish that were me

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

I mean I assumed sword man was a business owner looking to stab protesters too because the idea that a random bar patron would go stab teens outside his favorite bar is a wild god damn leap. But that's the truth

The thread posted earlier got deleted or hidden so here's some screenshots from a different account
https://twitter.com/meyevee/status/1267158131932528643

Literally just out there looking for a fight and decided to leeroy jenkins charge at people instead of disengaging when confronted by the group throwing rocks. Fuck this dude

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Governor Abbot has reportedly mobilized the Texas National Guard even though nothing serious really happened yet so the boogaloo boys can rest easy that no more graffiti will be placed nearby the Alamo

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https://twitter.com/MsLisaHendricks/status/1266874480413954048?s=19

lmao is this why smuffin brought up the Alamo?

fucking groypers

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.

Wanglicious posted...

...i don't get this concept.
practical should absolutely override ideological. like the usual "if not now, when?" type of argument has a clear answer: not in a pandemic. the greater evil is the one that's going to cause more harm to you and that's going to be the pandemic here, whether it's in personal health, deaths, or economic.

Well the ideological concern would lead to practical gains (like Jakyl said, priority 1 in this situation would be expanding healthcare) so it's linked. They're always intertwined but in the context of the conversation with Jakyl they were opposed.

In the real world scenario the practical gain is resistance against the military shooting civilians

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DPOblivion was far more determined than me.