Lurker > SinisterSlay

adjl posted...

It can be, and I would in fact say that a game where you're forced to grind gold to keep your equipment up to date is forcing more metagaming than is ideal. Ideally, fighting a "typical" number of enemies, finding a "typical" number of chests, or otherwise doing a "typical" amount of whatever method accumulates gold should leave you with enough money that you'll have to make decisions about whose equipment to upgrade, but give you enough upgrades that - provided you're smart about how you use them - the gameplay that follows is a moderate challenge.

That's exceedingly vague and relies on a lot of assumptions about "typical" play, but that's what I mean when I say it should be balanced in a way that doesn't push the player to draw on their knowledge that they're playing a game to exploit the game mechanics. Buying new equipment when you reach a new town makes diegetic sense: If your characters were acting on their own, they would want to take advantage of that upgrade opportunity to better prepare themselves for the next leg of their quest. It also makes diegetic sense that they won't have enough money to buy everything (while also being an interesting gameplay choice, in which you have to choose between spending your limited money now or gambling that your current power level will be enough to tide you over while you save up for something better later). It doesn't make diegetic sense to exploit infinitely-respawning enemies to grind up enough gold to buy everything and not have to decide which upgrades matter most. You should still be *able* to do it, since that kind of control over character progression is fun, but you shouldn't be *forced* to do it by having the game balanced around immersion-breaking levels of grinding.

Now, a ton of games don't manage to get that balance perfectly. You're almost always going to end up doing some non-diegetic grinding in any RPG, and by and large the RPG-playing community accepts that. But games where you fall significantly behind if you just try to play in a way that feels "normal" are still going to rub some people the wrong way, which is understandable.

Just wait until you try Treasure of the Rudras where your expected to make your own spells, and effectively cheat by saving the spells the end boss uses and use them on another campaign.
Some games just expect you to be smarter, be a better player.

adjl posted...

Maxing your level immediately is more what I'm calling unambiguous metagaming. That's not exactly normal gameplay. Beyond that, though, even if the game explains the junctioning mechanics, it can still fall into metagaming territory to put deliberate effort into maximizing what you get from the mechanics. In turn, if you're going to suffer if you don't put at least some deliberate effort into maximizing what you get from those mechanics, that means the game is forcing you to do some metagaming, and that's not everyone's jam.

It can be tricky to strike a balance between having interesting/unique character growth mechanics (generally a good thing) and having those mechanics force players to think about the game as a game they're trying to win instead of being able to immerse themselves in it (generally a bad thing, at least with RPGs and other games where a big part of the appeal is immersing yourself in the world and story). The latter is metagaming, and it's very much a spectrum instead of being a clear binary division. My understanding is that FF8 isn't too bad in that regard (it's no Oblivion, for example), but it leans far enough in the metagaming direction that some people dislike it for that.

Then being forced to buy new equipment in each town is also meta gaming. You even have to know to go grind for money in most games to afford all the upgrades, or know which ones you actually need.

adjl posted...

It tells you to max your level immediately?

It tells you to junction your magic, how to do it, where to get it from, how to train GF skills. This is all explained in the first hour of the game.
I recall later in the game, just before the first mission, it tells you that some skills are more important and to prioritize and it clearly shows the item conversion skills since those aren't obvious to know their importance yet.

adjl posted...

That's metagaming. You're going outside of normal gameplay to exploit the game's mechanics to your advantage. It may not be particularly hard or obscure metagaming, but it's metagaming nonetheless.

Note that I'm not saying you're wrong to have had fun playing that way. Just that other people also aren't wrong to not have fun playing that way. Not everybody likes thinking about game mechanics beyond face value.

But it tells you to do that. Right when you get Ifrit it tells you to junction strength. In the class room it tells you to train the GF and how to do it.
And unless this is your first RPG ever, you already know to grind levels.
If you missed this, well... Start again, the intro is pretty easy after you get past all the talking. You will probably know something is wrong when you die horribly to diablo gf or can't beat the robot in the first city.

Maximothelad posted...

Want to feel really old? Kids born in 2010 have never owned or used a CD / DVD / Blu ray. Everything is streaming or youtube. THAT'S IT. They don't even know Nintendo beyond a Switch and they only care about Fortnite.

Wow that is kind of crazy, I didn't think of it either.
Also kids born in 2010 had a really shitty school life, especially in America. Between shootings and covid and online bullying including AI image bullying, its been one disaster after another. In 70 years when these kids are finally old enough to be politicians, laws might finally get fixed.

adjl posted...

I can see it go either way. The biggest criticism I see about that sort of levelling system in general (whether it's FF8, Oblivion, or any other example) is that it's just not intuitive: Instead of levelling up and becoming more powerful being something that happens naturally as you play normally, you have to go out of your way to metagame if you don't want to lag behind. I personally like metagaming and min/maxing and turning games into spreadsheet simulators, but even I don't like *having* to do that.

Basically, there's a difference between "this game will be hard if you don't make sensible levelling choices" and "this game will be hard if you don't look up a levelling guide ahead of time or otherwise collect information on how the levelling system works because that's the only way you're going to be able to figure out what levelling choices are sensible." Everyone expects to have a hard time if they pump Int on their Fighter. Fewer people expect to have a hard time if they focus on levelling the skills they picked as the character's "main" ones (to use Oblivion as an example because it's one of the worst offenders). From what I understand about FF8 (I haven't actually played it), it's kind of borderline in that you don't *have* to metagame much just to get by, but if you don't you aren't going to get much of the sense of power growth that people typically like to get from RPGs and will therefore have a lesser experience than you would with a more intuitive levelling system. For people that like metagaming enough to do a bit of it all the time, it's not a problem, but for people who just want to play normally and not try to game the system to get an edge, it'll be bothersome and mess with their ability to immerse themselves in playing the game. I get why it's divisive.

Every time I play FF8 I quickly went to that island with high level monster and maxed my level. It made the game more fun, had more magic to draw, and didn't make anything more difficult.
Shit you mostly just spam limit breaks by raising your max HP to 9999 and leaving yourself at 2500. You get a limit break every turn. Junction enough defense and attack and the game is a cakewalk even at max level. This isn't even meta gaming. If you unlock the GFs item to magic skill, you will very quickly learn on the very first beach there is fish that drop fins 100% of the time, each fin refines to water. Then go get Ifrit and you get junction strength, put water on that and BAM you are a god already, with no guide, because this is super obvious. I had this on my first play through as a small child with no help or internet. Also figured out spamming the character swap button causes limit breaks to refresh, the game even ignores your input during the noise and animation for a limit break, stopping you from skipping past it.
In short the level scaling in FF8 works just fine and is hardly noticeable.

ConfusedTorchic posted...

ff8 is way better than chrono trigger lmfao

that isn't even a debate that can be made

8 and 9 were the squaresoft peak, the pinnacle, the straight up magnum opus.

Really? 8 Where you had to avoid using magic and GFs, and 9 where the battle was so slow you might have 8 attacks queued up?

load times in ps1 emulator were instant. Pretty sure that's objectively the best version. Also runs on pretty much all phones, mobile devices, PCs.

I am not sure a current audience could handle the slow pace of chrono trigger.
A group a long long time ago did try to make a 3d remake of the game, but it was obviously shut down by lawyers. Japanese companies are especially stupid about these things and instead of hiring these people and buying and finishing their game and making it official, they destroyed it and sat on the IP.

They have been obsolete for a very long time. But people keep buying them anyways. So they will continue to be made.

Greenfox111 posted...

Hell no I don't I love eating

Really? Never had projectile vomit flu and end up going all day without eating?

Yeah it's fine. Everyone's done it.
Don't go a week though

Well in honor of Toriyama, let's add that Goku is never given anything, he has to earn it. He is inspiring because he shows with hard work you can pretty much become a god.

Contrast to superman who is just awesome cause he was born with it. Literally born with privilege.

He's was the opening to most of the west to anime.

adjl posted...

The economic implications of being able to summon satin at will are pretty significant. It's not the most useful textile, by any means, but being free is a massive gamechanger.

Usually summoning spells require virgin blood.
I am not certain of the sustainability of the supply.

No need to lay out provisions. See if he can convince Putin that Russia should own Mars too and they both have to go stake their claim.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

That was one of the ones they kept trying to sell to a network, and then got bitter about when no network wanted to buy it.

I expect it was expensive.

I miss immersion, great series

Yeah they used to do some really cool stuff, but haven't for a long long time

Technically yes I am. I don't actually act on my thoughts though

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Why barely conceal them?

Ah that's a classic. A person in a skirt is more interesting than a naked one because we wonder what's underneath.

Always liked Zapdos.
If it worked correctly, Its a bird that's immune to electricity and an electric that can harm ground.
In the original game electric and flying were both very good types. You could comfortably put Zapdos as your lead and take out virtually everything except rock types.

Canadian media? Though biased most of it is telling the truth.

The weather predictions though, completely wrong.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Why barely conceal them

Double word play. The game is barely concealed or the characters are barely concealed

Barely concealed porn games are the best

ConfusedTorchic posted...

how are you getting bank account number from a physical paper check or a paypal name lmfao

and they already have your name and address lol

That number on the bottom of your check is everything someone needs to take money out or put it in, its your account number.

ConfusedTorchic posted...

and payment details!

which, usually it's just a physical check in the mail, or just a paypal deposit

So your bank account number and your mortgage address and your name. Sounds like enough.
Anyways do what you want

Jen0125 posted...

they already have your personal info and address. that's how they find you lmao i'm not sure why that's supposed to scare me

Really? Every one I've seen and could be in required be to register everything with them. They've never had my info prior

Yeah you hand all your personal info, address, payment details to an unsecured third party for $12.

I run, but not very far. I'm not very fit. So typically I switch to fight very quickly. I'm not able to run but I'm very tall, very heavy, and decently strong. Short of a knife or gun or bear not much is a significant threat.

Trump has pretty interesting legacy, he has done the most damage to democracy ever. Xi and Putin sit in awe of him. Musk licks Trumps withered sack daily. Besos has a rocket in his pants just thinking about Trump. And the best images ever of Putin and Trump making out were made during his presidency.

Futurama will need to replace Nixon as most evil president.

Also no charitable receipt when you do that to claim on your taxes.

captpackrat posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/2/2ca61cc7.jpg

Needs updating.

https://youtu.be/L5EgpeFviJo
None of it makes sense

No PS1? Sad

They aren't allowed to, is the most basic answer

We all are.
You only have about 4 minutes to live.
You reset the clock every time you take a breath.

Yellow posted...

Gonna go with a hard disagree on that advice, smoking is much harder to quit than drinking in my experience

If it's hard for you to quit addictions then yeah. Not sure how to help. Usually you replace the addiction with something less dangerous.

Would be great if you could replace it with say, hiking, but that's a dream world for most of us.

Just keep water at hand at all times, every time you want a drink, drink that water instead.
If it helps, alcohol makes your depression symptoms worse. So try to remind yourself every time you want a drink, that there is a future you that won't feel that way anymore if present you just avoids that drink.

But you also need to deal with your depression, in my opinion as someone that suffers depression it is much much harder to fix. You can't just choose to not be depressed, it doesn't just go away. And it's super easy to relapse with nothing but a sad movie.
The only trick I have found that worked for me is to stop each time I feel depressed, think about why I am depressed at that moment, and then think of happier thoughts, positives of the situation you are thinking about.
And the most important thing, do not talk to anyone you love about why you are depressed, it just pisses them off. You have to keep it to yourself. I know its not logical but it seems to be the truth. You will ruin your relationships if you talk about your depression with anyone.

Have you thought of taking up smoking? Give your liver a rest?

Then quit smoking to?

Metalsonic66 posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/6adf5432.jpg

Works for men too

MeatiestMeatus posted...

You cats can bury your heads in the sand over Palworld being live service if that's what you choose to do.

Me? I choose to be informed on the matter

I think you've proved the opposite

Also important to remember that some games get updates or new features much later in their life simply because a Dev was bored, or while clearing tech debt, they upgraded their own engine to closer to what they are currently using, or they want to test some new feature in an old game first.

Rude way to talk about your wife

MeatiestMeatus posted...

With all the negative press surrounding live service games these days, Pocket Pair are trying to sell it as early access to dupe the rubes who can't see it for what it truly is. I'm not so easily fooled it's live service through and through

Then they are doing a terrible job. They have a million dollar a week server cost and forgot to include any monetization in the game.

They will have to invent a new name for a live service game that has no live service and no additional monetization.

MeatiestMeatus posted...

Diluted or not, Palworld is live service lite

Patches and quality of life improvements are all that's added to an early access game.

Additional content makes it live service. It's still monetized even if it's "free" because they're charging for the base game

So you can't read? It's early access. Read what I posted, very very carefully, use your good eye.
Early access literally means the game isn't done. They are still building it, new content will be added as they build it.

Your definition of "live service light" is so broad it includes every game ever made ever because they all had early alphas and betas.

Final Fantasy 6 was a live service light because it got renamed to final fantasy 3, then back to 6 again. And content was added in the PS1 release.

MeatiestMeatus posted...

That's why I call it live service lite. They're adding more to the game in the future. That's not early access. Early access is just that: early access to a game that's largely complete but needs quality of life fixes. Monetization or no, Palworld follows a live service model. In addition to QOL fixes, they're adding to the game. Of particular note is the admission that they're adding endgame raid support. That's definitively live service

Suicide Squad is offering a lot of free updates. No Man's Sky offers a lot of free updates once you've paid for the main game. Just because Palworld isn't charging doesn't make it not live service

But they straight up say the game isn't done and they are still building it and want community involvement. Is in your mind any game getting post launch updates a live service game? And early access just doesn't exist?

From the store page

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/05462945.jpg

Full text

Why Early Access?
We believe that to create an exciting and completely new game, it is very important to keep fine-tuning it based on feedback from our players.

Palworld is a monster-catching, survival and crafting game, but incorporates a variety of mechanics from other genres in order to provide a completely new experience for everyone.

In order to collect feedback on these elements and grow the game into one that everyone can enjoy, we believe that feedback from everyone in the community is necessary.

Therefore, we have decided to release Palworld into Early Access.

Please lend us your support so that we can make Palworld the best it can be.
Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
We plan to improve the quality of the game by making various improvements throughout early access for at least one year.

During early access, we will update the game based on the roadmap, actively adding content and improving the game systems.

Depending on the progress of development, we may consider extending early access or if we are satisfied with the state of the game, officially releasing the game.
How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
We plan to incorporate various additional elements, focusing on adding new content and balance adjustments where needed.

The addition of new monsters to further the Pal roster, new areas and dungeons to make exploration even more enjoyable, and the addition of new buildings and items that make the survival elements more pronounced and enjoyable, making the unique Palworld experience even more appealing. We are considering content to target.

We are also considering incorporating entirely new game systems based on player feedback and ideas.
What is the current state of the Early Access version?
The core systems of the Palworld experience, such as monster catching, battles, exploration, building and crafting, are already complete.

We also have more than 100 monsters, a vast open world, over 350 items, and more than 70 types of buildings - enough content to keep you entertained even during early access.
Will the game be priced differently during and after Early Access?
The price of the game may increase at or closer to the official release.
How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
We're asking for your feedback in a variety of places, including the Steam forums, on our Twitter, Discord and other social networking sites.

We also hope that the community will be a great place for players to interact with other players who are enjoying Palworld.

We believe that Palworld is a game that the development team and the players will work together to create.

Based on discussions within the community, we plan to actively implement content and system improvements that were not planned at the beginning of development but that the players long for.

We would love to hear your feedback on Palworld.

MeatiestMeatus posted...

They stated they plan on releasing more content (islands, pals, bosses, tech) and endgame raid bosses. That's live service, not early access:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/2/2a55ee40.jpg

It has released in early access, but the support they've mapped out is live service lite

I think you are confused because in the AAA world, a live service game is an early access game.
In the rest of the world, an early access game is the developer looking for community feedback on how to develop the game.

Palworld is doing the latter. They have no plans for additional monetization yet.

adjl posted...

If anything, it'll probably result in more crunch time because the out-of-touch executives who come up with project deadlines that require crunch in the first place will just buy into the hype that AI can shorten development times without actually taking the time to understand how it can do that and what that actually means for project timelines. Crunch (at least the serious cases, occasional overtime is kind of inevitable) happens now because executives don't understand game development and the capabilities of their employees/studios well enough to form realistic expectations for timelines. AI is more likely to make that worse than to fix it.

Comes back to the smart companies vs dumb companies thing again

adjl posted...

That's more cost saving than increased production. If you can produce the same product in fewer salary hours, you've saved money, and increasing quality is distinct from increasing production (which I tend to interpret as increasing the volume produced).

Well less bugs in first release. Less crunch time.

adjl posted...

The problem with increasing production is that there isn't really a shortage of games coming out of any major studio, nor is there a shortage of games coming out in general. Getting more games out can help to capture a greater share of that market, but games already struggle to stand out enough to be successful, and by and large producing more games means compromising on their quality and therefore jeopardizing their chances.

Your thinking the wrong way, its not more games, its higher quality games in the same time, or games made faster.
I like most devs now use copilot, and it is a huge code quality improvement.

Metalsonic66 posted...

Seems like every company is doing layoffs this year

Mine just announced that they had their first ever loss this year.
No layoffs, instead they are investing more to ride the next wave back up. Since the wave always comes.